Job quote

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Hello i've just started my own welding shop.Ive got a job offer to weld on a building structure.How do i price the job.Its 18FT. beams 8'FT. weld on each. Would i be better to price by the hour if so how much?Or by the ft of weld if so how much? Or by the job.I know i should up the price for gas and if i break something. What percentage should that be?Any other info would be great. THANKS     HATFIELD'S WELDING
Reply:Hatfield, if you really have to ask these questions you really aren't ready to be in the business on your own yet.  Not trying to be a hard @$$, but All of those things will vary depending on location.  Hourly rates will vary greatly depending on skill, and location.  If you are in business then you should already have an hourly rate set to work at.  If so then figure how many hours you can do the job in and charge the rate by the hours...  Most will want to know w hourly rate, but also want a possible total cost.  Are you certified or insured?  If you aren't either then you may not want to work structural work as you are opening up yourself to a LARGE amount of liability...  Good luck..I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I  am fully insured and asme certified. I do alot of local welding as well as in my shop. I have not done any jobs like this one.I was just wondering about other rates for this kind of work. You know everyone has to start somewhere. Forums are for people to ask for advice and to receive constructive criticism not for degrading remarks such as yours. I had hoped that all people were willing to help your fellow American's out. It is people like you that have made it so hard in America by not lending your hand or advice to your fellow american. Please keep your rude remarks to yourself because I and other members don't want to hear them.
Reply:Now hold on one second.  You have been a member less than a month and have only made 8 posts.  Two of them on a long dead thread, that's a25% failure rate.  How do you know what other members want, and who authorized you to speak for them?Last edited by Boostinjdm; 05-28-2009 at 12:24 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Boostinjdm...and who authorized you to speak for them?
Reply:I would have to (mostly) agree w/ Hammack.   These are questions that can't accurately be answered by anyone but you. My business is new as well, but I was lucky enough to gain valuable experience quoting for another shop I used to work at. They pretty much handed me the reigns to the handrail, misc. and ornamental steel dep't. From estimating, to sales, to production and install, they just said git-r-done.    The challenge of bidding was eased by the opportunity to work with some very seasoned pro's on the sales and estimating side. I was able to draw from 25 yrs of exp. from the owner and over 50 yrs. exp. from the lead estimator/steel salesperson. However their way of estimating may not be right for anyone else. Figure out all your costs for overhead, insurance, fuel etc. on an annual basis then use past experience to determine a realistic idea of how many billable hours you'll do per year. Trust me you will not bill 40hrs 52 weeks a year. Divide costs by billable hrs and there's the rate you need to break even.       Then start playing with profit margin to figure shop rate. Check your market, too. Find out what other shops in your locale charge for comparable work.Last edited by app-ironworksllc; 05-28-2009 at 12:30 AM.Brian LeonardAppalachian Ironworks L.L.C.434 Long Branch Rd, Marshall, NC 28753828 649 9966828 702 [email protected]
Reply:Boy, you guys are all quick to jump in on something and it have absolutely nothing to do with my thread.  Boostinjdm; when i first joined i was just getting a feel for this place and I didn't realize that the thread was old, so sorry, I made a mistake. AND, what is exactly is reasonable about the first reply? I found it right out rude that he tells me I shouldn't be in business for myself and he obviously knew that I would take offense to it because why else would he of said that he isn't trying to be a hard a$$. I have 14 years of welding experience from factory and custom fab from my own shop out of my garage just to earn a little cash but nothing as far as business. For the most part this is how people start out is by asking from more experienced business owners such as the post from app-ironwork he knows a little bit more about it by his opportunities to sales and so forth. I just need a little guidance is it to much to ask for for someone to tell me their experience without people posting about stuff that pertains nothing about my original thread. AND you are right I am not trying to speak for other members but for the most part most people don't want to hear negative remarks when it is hard enough trying to get up and on your feet especially after you have been laid off of work after many years of work. SO, please pass this post if you have nothing to say that can help me out.
Reply:Originally Posted by HATFIELD WELDINGForums are for people to ask for advice and to receive constructive criticism not for degrading remarks such as yours.
Reply:here's a simple answer to your first post.  If you already do "in shop" welding then you must already have some type of pricing system.  If you charge by the hour then you know your shop rate.  If you are going to do mobile welding using all your own equipment, then take your shop rate and double or triple it.  That is only for the on site work.  Then add in a per mile or per trip charge to cover your transportation.  Your first few jobs are going to be high risk.  You won't know for sure how you come out untill the job is done.  After a few mobile jobs you should begin to get a handle on pricing.The way I understand guys to "bid" jobs is to estimate the hours and multiply, then just give the total.  IMO charging an hourly rate is best because every job is different and some are more difficult and time consuming than others.You could also do this.Hourly labor+hourly equipment rent+actual consumables+trip fee.Hourly labor= your wageHourly equipment rent = cost of running and maintaining it.  Oil changes, purchase price divided by life expectancy, etc.Actual consumables= rods, helmet lenses, etc.Trip fee= Truck maintenace cost divided by miles between maintenancing+fuel for that trip+price of vehicle divided by life expectancy+ enough $ to motivate you to get off the couch to do the job.Pricing depends heavily on the area and type of work being done.  Nobody knows like the guys in your own area.  There are so many variables to consider it is going to be almost impossible to tell you exactly what to charge.I personally work dirt cheap.  I work out of my garage which is paid for, I use equipment I bought to primarily work on my own stuff and it is paid for.  I don't even attempt to charge what local shops do because I don't have the overhead.   All I look for is to cover my consumables and make a decent hourly wage.  I consider a decent wage just slightly higher than what I would be paid working for somebody else.  The way I tell if I am profitable or not is very simple.  This is my only source of income.  If I can eat and pay the bills then I am doing ok.  If I can buy stuff for my hobbies, toys, or get new equipment, I am doing well.  I only aim to get by or slightly ahead, not get rich (at least right now).  I have plans for the future, and am slowly sneaking up on them, but now is not the time for me.Take my advice with a grain of salt,  I wouldn't consider myself legit yet....but I am supporting myself without mooching off the govm't or fellow taxpayers.To close, I have to agree with JC.If you ask a question, you better be prepared for any answer you might get.  Helpful or not, good or bad.Being a Newb and snapping at someone that takes the time to respond, is not a good way to make friends or get help in the future....Almost forgot, stating years of experience isn't very helpful.  I know guys that have been doing things wrong for many years, and that can still be called experience.
Reply:hatfield, there is nothing degrading about what I said.  Given what you asked and the information about yourself that you gave that WAS good advice.  If you are going to get mad about every post someone makes then try to give a bit more information for them to go on in order for them to give you better advice.  As far as me not helping my fellow American you have no idea what all I have done to help my fellow American.  I've got two guys working for me now that will earn more money than I will make this year just because I wanted to HELP my fellow American and not put them out of a job.  I have been on this board far longer than most, and you will not find anywhere that I was rude to anyone, but don't worry, as far as YOU are concerned I will keep my comments to myself from now on out.Last edited by Hammack_Welding; 05-28-2009 at 06:37 AM.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:This is to "HATFIELD WELDING" and all the other people who come to this forum and ask the same old question. What should i charge???????If you have to ask this question, then you need to sell your **** and move on. If you started your business with out having that simple question in the back of your head, then my friend you have the cart ahead of the horse. Now, people like myself and Hammack and several others who run a good buisness, might and do come on this site and ask questions and post projects and just hang out and see what others are doing. I might come in this site and see if someone else has done a project that i am working and just compare notes and listen to what they advise. I also have posted some jobs just to see what other welders might do or listen to their opinions. That is what this site if for. This site is not for people who want to come on and have others do their job for them. What make you a good business man and helps you run your business well is getting into a project and getting your *** kicked, because you over looked something.  If i had to run to the computer and ask these guys what and how to bid on something every time a project comes into my shop, i would have to hire a guy to just ask questions on this forum. About helping a fellow guy out and how did i or others learn, well............Let me tell you, i have lost my *** on several projects because of over looks or stuff not going right, or just because i bid on something and i took a lot longer than what i thought. That is the price of saying I work for my self. Now i am going to help you out and you can take it or not. Since you are new, and have no idea what the hell is going on yet,  Charge by the hour. Don't bid nothing, you can't because you have no clue, because you haven't done your homework. Figure out what the going rate is in your area. If you don't know that then you should of never started your business in the first place. Anyway, figure out what you charge an hour, stick with it and go from there. I learn that lesson the hard way and i am passing it on to you. Don't bid nothing till you get the feel of how fast time flies when you are out of your shop.  Do your homework. One more thing, if you don't sleep at night because you have all this **** in your head, then you are ready to run a business. If you wake up in the morning because you slept good, then your aren't ready and you need to work for someone else.That is my .02 worth take it or not, i don't care. Aaron Ag Specialties
Reply:Originally Posted by Ag Specialties That is the price of saying I work for my self.
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmSo true....
Reply:Very well said!
Reply:I read this and immediately recalled a recent experience of my own.First off, Hatfield, do a search on this forum and you'll find a number of discussions on how to price work.  Hence the minimal patience for yet another post on the subject.  Next, you could always go to the library and look for books on the subject of running a contracting-type of business.  That's what I did, and it helped me greatly.Back to my original point.  I worked on a job installing and welding some railing sections together for a general contractor who was building a new gas station in the area.  The railing came in 6 sections, pre-fabbed.  It was installed on the roof of the station, to provide fall protection for anyone working on the rooftop HVAC and refrigeration equipment.The contractor provided the railing sections; and his instructions were simple, "Install the pieces in the mounts up on the roof, and weld them together."  To make a long story shorter, I did as he asked and he paid me my hourly rate for the time the job took.  Sidenote, this was not the first project I did for this contractor, so the rate was understood before I started.A few days after I finished the job, I got a phonecall.  "Can you come back and raise the railing height 9"?"  Unfortunately, I was out of town, and unable to return in time to get the job done.  What did I do?  I referred the contractor to my competitors when I found I couldn't meet his deadline.I spent the next 48 hours wondering if this snafu was going to cost me my payment for the work I did on the railing?  Who was responsible for it being at the wrong height?  No drawings were provided, and I worked with 2 of the contractor's helpers to install the railing.  We simply set it all the way down in the mounts provided.  He provided the railing pieces, and made no mention of how high the finished railing should be.I received my check in the mail a couple days after the phonecall, so all turned out OK in the end.  I checked back with the contractor when I returned to town.  He solved the issue in time; so nothing more I could do.  In short, I got lucky.  Lesson learned for the future.  Next time, I'll ask more questions, even when the customer provides all the pieces for the project.  Even though this mistake didn't cost me dollars, I felt as though it could have damaged my reputation; with this contractor.  He may never do more work in this area, but if he does, I have no idea whether or not I'll work for him ever again.  All for a simple mistake and lack of preparation on both our parts.All this nonsense kept me up and distracted me from everything else going on until it resolved itself.Hatfield, do some more research and get your business head together.  Being a skilled welder is only a fraction of the job if you want your own business.   Originally Posted by Ag SpecialtiesAbout helping a fellow guy out and how did i or others learn, well............Let me tell you, i have lost my *** on several projects because of over looks or stuff not going right, or just because i bid on something and i took a lot longer than what i thought. That is the price of saying I work for my self. ...One more thing, if you don't sleep at night because you have all this **** in your head, then you are ready to run a business. If you wake up in the morning because you slept good, then your aren't ready and you need to work for someone else....Aaron Ag Specialties
Reply:LOLOLOL.....some things never change. *rolls eyes*Elvis
Reply:Quoting a job means you take the risk,,,,,,   Time and materials means the customer takes the risk.  There is no quick and easy formula for quoting jobs,,,,,   it is very much dependant on the Customer, the specific job, and YOU, both your capabilities and your willingness to take risk.   If it was as simple, as A + B + C, x a percentage,,,,   everybody would be doing it, and life would be just dandy.  It is possible, to make stupid amounts of money, quoting, then beating the quote.   Or, conversely, you can loose stupid amounts of money, quoting, then missing the quote.There is nobody I know,,,,  that is good at quoting,,,   that never made a huge mistake at some point in their career.  Either underbidding, and loosing money on jobs, or overbidding, and loosing jobs they could have easily made money at.   It is very much a learned process, not a taught process,,,,,,  you are not likely to find all, or any, of the answers on the WW interweb.    If you wanna be in business,,,,,   just learn you have to stick your neck out, if you loose, suck it up and keep going.   Just learn from what you did wrong,,,,,    otherwise,,,,   if you can't stomach risk,,,,,   just get a job, and collect your check every week.*Disclaimer*******   I am NOT putting down anybody working at a job ......     Because of various family issues, financial issues, security issues, etc. etc. everybody has to make their own choice,,,,,    to fit their own needs.   99% of the people I deal with,,,,  are employees of somebody or other,,,,   and frankly, prolly make more money than I.   HOWEVER,,,,,,   if you choose to go out on your own, I say don't do so if you need somebody to hold your hand while doing so.
Reply:Mr HatfieldI am writing on the WW entirely for the first timeI want to thank you so much for posting your questionI have the same question and thats how I got here.After reading all the replies I have to say that the first one did seem harsh? MAYBE?Not really if you take a third party neutral angle.Don't forget that people who don't care about you or your concerns, will never say something dry to the point or just harsh. They will lie to your face by being nice to you and above all agree with everything you say.If you're not going to read any further, please remember this much; be wary of your "Friends" that never criticize you for anything you do!Back to welding:I have to say I'm in the same boat as Mr Hartfieild Only difference is I got there as follows:For so many years in different welding schools and obtaining different certs including the City of LA D1.1, I have been worried and paid attention to technique and quality of the weld itself instead of considering the whole picture.No I am not trying to score brouny points.Simply tying to say "I take criticism" and happy someone took the time to! In the end I want to thank the people for the replies because as we speak I'm under the gun myself for a big job quote and the info here has helped.Leon
Reply:I am so tired of people that ask a question and then get their panties in a knot when they dont like the answer they get. I mean really, hang up and drive people, get with the program and stop the rampant spread of the plaque that is crybaby!Ranger 250 GXTSmith Gas Axe
Reply:Its global whinning.I'm not in welding, I run a catering business but its exactly the same with quotes, its all business in the end. Hrs plus materials is an employee mindset.Local competition plays a big role. Know your market, don't be the low baller or the highballer either.
Reply:Its also when people in their first few posts ask if they can strengthen their trailer to handle another 50000% load capacity, and how to do it and what metal to use and can their 110 MIG do it........as a made up example.They get given a resonable answer, then.....
Reply:hatfield;  65 per hr pluss materials and travel.
Reply:It seems a few older threads are being resurrected recently.
Reply:Jameswein is a spammer- Linky links in his sig lineEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Seeing we are in to it, tell us more specifically what kind of structural work, are you in in the air or ground level, you would be surprised at how much that alone can slow you down if you don't have a helper or lifts.Material heavy? Do you need rigging or crane, More info please/"Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400[QUOTE=HATFIELD WELDING;285196]Hello i've just started my own welding shop.Ive got a job offer to weld on a building structure.How do i price the job.Its 18FT. beams 8'FT. weld on each. Would i be better to price by the hour if so how much?Or by the ft of weld if so how much? Or by the job.I know i should up the price for gas and if i break something. What percentage should that be?Any other info would be great. THANKS     HATFIELD'S WELDING[/QUOIn alberta canada i charge a minimum 65 dollars an hour.But this job i would charge by the ft of weld. Are you using solid wire.time a foot of weld and set up time break it down by normal shop rate then add 15 percent for consumables.you will make money while keeping the costumer happy.
Reply:I have read 7' per hour.  You could use that.  Travel time?Do you have drawings?Rod or weld size specs?Travel time?Do you have enough cable?Are the welds going to be inspected?Do you need certs?Are other people on the job going to slow you down?Lots of things to think of.Bid the job, do an awesome job.  Let us know if you make it or loose our azz.....Done both.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.