When are they ready?

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I posted up a comment today on what looked like the usual new guy/ hobbyist asking general questions about welding a trailer and got an interesting response that got me thinking.  Originally Posted by Nomand- what if you know or intuitively understand what are you doing - how do you prove that without some document or building something that proofs it?...
Reply:I understand your concern, but the guy didn't say anything about his ability or inability to weld, he asked a simple question that I think was answered in the first reply. BTW, I have a piece of crap home-made trailer that is; I don't know how old, or who made it (by looking at the welds I'm guessing with O/A) and it still functions fine without disaster. Most trailer disasters are caused by loose lug nuts or some "not ready" driver pulling it."SOUTHPAW" A wise person learns from another persons mistakes;A smart person learns from their own mistakes;But, a stupid person.............never learns.
Reply:Truthfully?? Get the knowledge to use the right process. And then you've practiced it; you can do some bend test strips to see how your welds stack up. Better still, get other experienced welders to give you an un-biased visual inspection and evaluation. When there is something to be designed, if you know enough to match the equivalent in another similar project, then you are on the right track. You'll learn to figure out your loads, and you'll add in the weight of the structure, and add in 1/3-1/2 for cushion.It will all tie together eventually. Learning how to make a straight bumper or lumber rack will teach the basics of how to make a straight and true frame. And so on, and so on. Good prep, good welding, straight fabrication, and a knowledge of the load to be handled. Once that is all put together, you are ready to do your bigger projects. But have adequate help to do the job when it calls for it. You'll learn that too.Or.....when you can start the project, and start a 30 pack of Bud, at 7am, and have both done by 2 in the afternoon, then you are a pro!And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Originally Posted by papabearI understand your concern, but the guy didn't say anything about his ability or inability to weld, he asked a simple question that I think was answered in the first reply. BTW, I have a piece of crap home-made trailer that is; I don't know how old, or who made it (by looking at the welds I'm guessing with O/A) and it still functions fine without disaster. Most trailer disasters are caused by loose lug nuts or some "not ready" driver pulling it.
Reply:DSW,That's a difficult question for sure.  I'm sure everyone on here will have their own opinion.I guess, for me, it comes down to the basics.  When you pick up a stinger, a mig gun, a tig torch, etc. and lay down a bead, you KNOW it's going to hold.  You don't THINK it's good enough.I guess it goes back to the basics of knowing what process best serves the task at hand and becoming proficient with that.In marine fabrication the sea and owners with a "high tolerance for pain" will tell you quite rapidly if your welding/fabrication skills are up to snuff.  Repairing others work will also quickly point out the how to/how not to accomplish a given objective.  We say, in the industry, that "it's a small waterfront".  There are guys out there doing substandard work, but the word gets out quickly and they seem to disappear.Back in the day when I was doing a fair amount of engineer equipment repair, it was somewhat comforting when (lets just use an example) say a loader bucket came back in for repair.  Same dang bucket had been repaired a couple weeks earlier.  Sure enough another tear in 1/2" steel.  Only thing is, the previous repair had held.  The new damage is 4" away.  I came to the conclusion that if a piece of heavy equipment was made by human hands, there probably was an operator out there that could find a way to tear it up.The structural guys (hi rise, bridges, etc) have specifications which have to be followed to a T.  Additionally, they have their certifications (process dependent) which must be maintained in order to continue to do the work.  Pipe welders, the same thing.  Certs, inspections, etc.  When they walk off the job and into their garage, you can bet they don't cut corners there.Some of the "dead giveaways" for me is when a new poster asks, "Is this enough welder to weld------?".  Well, the machine may be fine, but if you're asking the question, then you're probably "not enough".There are probably 25 (or a lot more) guys on here who I'd never question their ability to build/rebuild an over the road trailer.  Few of them are "engineers".  Some probably have never held the first "welding cert" in their life.  Some don't say a lot, but when they do, you better listen.  I could go on and on.  The central point here is that they understand the equipment they have, know how to use it, know it's limitations, and KNOW what they're putting down is going to do the job.A lot has been said about a properly "engineered" trailer.  Being an engineer, I think I can comment on this.  There are a lot of experienced fabricators out there who I would trust with my life.  What you get from these guys (lets say a trailer) is probably overbuilt and overdesigned for the task at hand.  In the absence of hard engineer data, they tend to "overbuild".Unfortunately, in todays world, the engineer's task is to design a structure which will meet a specified criterion.  This has to be accomplished at the least cost and in the shortest period of time possible.  A lot has been said (here and elsewhere) about the design/failure of bridges.  Could the engineer have designed a bridge that would not have failed under a given circumstance.  Sure.  No problem.  Could the public have afforded to pay for that bridge?  That remains to be seen.We've all seen "certified welders" butcher certaiin jobs.  Maybe it came down to using a process they wern't proficient in.  Maybe they got lazy.  Comes back to the individual and what standards he sets for himself.The guy who's "ready to build a trailer" KNOWS his skills/limitations and stays within them.  Generally comes from formal training, school of hard knocks, good mentors, and more than a few "hood down" hours.  Interested in hearing others perspectives.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I started to teach myself how to weld 16 years ago.  Picked advice from my uncle who is a fitter and turner with weld cert.  Learned a lot from here and there with a bit of filtering out the BS. Started with O/A and stick, then MIG and within the last 2-3 years TIG.Didn't do anything ambitious for about 8 years.In early days built, tables, gates, frame for a generator, small brackets, vice/grinder stands,  etc.As Sundown said, it was when i was no longer saying " is this good enough, will it hold" did i start doing serious stuff.But there is still occasion that i still refuse to do a job because it is beyond my level of skill or just don't have the equipment to do it for a price. I do have a friend thats a toolmaker and he machines stuff up for me sometimes or i bounce ideas off him to gain his opinion on certain jobs/quotes.He does not do inhouse welding and gives jobs to me somtimes ( if time allows ) to weld.Last edited by LarryO; 01-15-2010 at 10:44 PM.
Reply:I'll post a pic tomorrow of my first and only trailer i built about 2 years ago.
Reply:This is a good and constructive discussion. (haven't seen one on the board in a while)I think you bring up a valid question, DSW. I would hope that when a hobbyist on this forum is about to build a trailer, he or she has had such practice and experience to feel that they are ready to take on the task. The next step it to come on here and ask the guys that are a little further along in the hobby. This seems to be the point where someone always chimes in and questions their "ability, and if they have to ask they are not ready". It feels like a somewhat elitist attitude to do this when, what we on this forum need to do, is make sure we are all educated enough to tackle our respective projects. When a member decides he is ready, and posts, they are spoken "down" to because someone assumes the worst about them.Bill Attached ImagesLast edited by WHughes; 01-15-2010 at 10:57 PM.
Reply:Hey guys,I definitely feel this is quite a relevant subject to discuss & in turn will result in many others learning, especially the youngsters & newbies. These forums, hopefully, with the guidance of the really experienced weldors, input sound knowledge to allow the novice weldors to do the homework necessary to produce a quality job. That will also provide a challenge to test ones' mettle that they indeed have confidence with their abilities & not second-guess their level of experience.... it's those who "know", without reservation, they are good. That is not arrogance.I feel Dougs'(DSW) response was not out of line & he didn't deserve the castigating response from "Joker". To simply challenge an OP's query that had very little input from the OP regarding the level of experience was quite in order. We're not mind readers nor do we know the level of experience if it is not indicated. One can say they have welded for years, although not reveal if they are career weldors who weld daily or just hobbyists/weekend warriors.I know most of the experienced weldors here who's knowledge spans many decades & provide sound advice/suggestions, & they really just try to establish an OP's understanding & reasoning to give quality input. I find SundownIII's response to really nail the subject dead center. Those of us, each in our own arena of experience, either can or cannot provide solid info. based on years of hood time & within ourselves, KNOW what we can do. We don't ever second-guess our own decisions because of the confidence obtained thru application. After 47 years, every job I do, I KNOW it will be the best I can do with the experience & the equipment I have at my disposal. I've never done pipeline, structural, vessel, or rig welding, & so I never offer advice/suggestions in those arenas. I do heavy equipment, aluminum, tool & die micro, & repair welding, & have years of experience in every process including some uncommon such as carbon-resistance & inductance(magnetic) welding. Most of we "senior" weldors just try to give the youngsters/newbies information to help them grasp the intensity one can get involved in, especially where there is any probability for injury to themselves or others from lack of experience/knowledge/confidence.The world of metal/metallurgy & welding is a vast arena & application parameters are such most can't comprehend. The queries & answers are infinite. The forums are networks that provide many of the pieces of the knowledge puzzle....simply to help.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Quickly as you can, snatch the Stinger from my hand.  When you can take the Stinger from my hand, it will be time for you to leave. Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:When you KNOW you can do the job.Not you think you can do it.  Not think it might be OK.But when you KNOW.  Not because you are arrogant, but because you know what you are doing.How do you KNOW?Experience and practice.  Those might involve schooling or certs or NDT/NDI or destructive testing (lab or real world).  Or all of the above in various amounts.And part of the KNOWING is also knowing your limits.  Whether because of knowledge or practice or equipment or whatever.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:It's not just knowing what you can do it's also knowing and accepting what you can't do or shouldn't do.Practice practice practice practice practice practice.Oh and did I mention practiceWhen I first started welding I always wanted to build my own trailer and thought I was ready. I never got the chance for one reason or another. Looking back I realize I didn't have the necessary skills. I only figured that out after acquiring those skills. Nine years later I want to build my self a trailer finally but am to scared to ask simple questions for fear of being torn apart on this forum. Questions that need to be asked since I've never build a small trailer before.Now for the kicker right when people would be saying if I have to ask I shouldn't be building one. I build trailers all the time all I said was I've never built a small one. The smallest ones I build are usually about 20' and weigh a couple tons. The bigger ones I build are 60' feet or so and weigh 30 tons or more. So should I not build my self a small trailer because I need to ask a few questions? And do I need to post my entire welding history before people are willing to answer questions on trailer building.  Sorry I didn't mean to make a rant it just all came outAnd in no way was this directed at any individual.
Reply:MoonRise pretty much nailed it.I know for me starting out, it took awhile before I felt confident with my abilities.  I was self taught, then took a VERY basic course at CC to unlearn bad habits and learn the right way.  Passed a visual only 3F and 4F 6011 test and was on my way!Learned a lot of things from coworkers and bosses on the job, chance to see results of welds and the chance to learn different processes.I started to believe I was pretty good but until I had several years experience and had seen the results of my welds holding, I always had that little nagging doubt in the back of my mind.  After lots of root, face and side bends, x-ray and UT testing you know.Few hobby welders get that chance to see the results of tests and welds holding (or not) in extreme circumstances.  Doesn't mean that some aren't ready for the big time.  But until that time arises will they think or will they know?If you want to build something that will go down the road at 70 MPH, I suggest seeing if you can do some bend tests at a CC for a nominal fee before you put someones life at risk."The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State, because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."  Teddy RooseveltAmerican by birth, Union by choice!  Boilermakers # 60America is a Union.
Reply:Ive seen lots of threads also where people ask trailer questions and get good answers.As Sundown said and i will add a couple more, its the questions like "can i weld my trailer with a 120amp mig", "should i use tig, stick or mig to weld my trailer", "how do i make a t join","can you weld on a hitch that says do not weld",  you get my drift.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mega Arc 5040DDIt's not just knowing what you can do it's also knowing and accepting what you can't do or shouldn't do.Practice practice practice practice practice practice.Oh and did I mention practiceWhen I first started welding I always wanted to build my own trailer and thought I was ready. I never got the chance for one reason or another. Looking back I realize I didn't have the necessary skills. I only figured that out after acquiring those skills. Nine years later I want to build my self a trailer finally but am to scared to ask simple questions for fear of being torn apart on this forum. Questions that need to be asked since I've never build a small trailer before.Now for the kicker right when people would be saying if I have to ask I shouldn't be building one. I build trailers all the time all I said was I've never built a small one. The smallest ones I build are usually about 20' and weigh a couple tons. The bigger ones I build are 60' feet or so and weigh 30 tons or more. So should I not build my self a small trailer because I need to ask a few questions? And do I need to post my entire welding history before people are willing to answer questions on trailer building.  Sorry I didn't mean to make a rant it just all came outAnd in no way was this directed at any individual.
Reply:Part of the problem isn't about welding. I see many things made by excellent welders that fail.Many guys simply "stack" the pieces wrong.A well designed structure many times could be bolted instead of welded if it is assembled in the correct manner.I feel far too many people put WAY WAY too much stock into their welds in the first place.You have to be able to imagine what would cause something to fail in the first place.I believe repairing trailers that fail teaches a person what not to do.The same thing applies to trailer hitches as well. Many are just assembled wrong. Great welds....they just fail to hold up when drastically overloaded. Applying the brakes changes everything when trailers and hitches are in use.I have made a trailer that didn't work as built before many years back. I fixed it and used it a bunch. I sold it and it still lives on.When you can take one look at a trailer/hitch/rollcage from a distance and spot obvious design defects you MAY be ready to do some things.I will say that even a stint doing basic construction like framing houses is invaluable as far as just general knowledge goes IMO. Not saying carpenters make good welders either. What I am saying is learning how to cut and assemble 2x4's and the like in a manner so that nails are addequate fasteners will really wake a fabricater up and make him imagine much better ways to construct things so that welding can be used to a much better advantage. In fact when I make things with wood I generally imagine how much better it could have been with tubing and welds.I have seen very poor carpenters attempt to construct things out of metal and it is an absolute disaster from the start. Welding is not magic.....it is only one piece of the puzzle as far as trailers are conerned.With all that said I am not sure some hobby guys would EVER be ready to make a trailer if they have never had a constuction background.Miller Dynasty 700Miller 350P with Aluma-pro push-pullMiller 280 Dynasty with expansion card Dynasty 200 DXMigMax 215 Enuff power and hand tools to create one of anything..... but mass produce nothing!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by racinjason44Well, unfortunately your not the only person with this view point. This forum and its members really has a wealth of knowledge to share, but its usefulness is hampered by the fact that many people get jumped on for asking questions. A forum should be about sharing information, not trying to run a clubhouse. Not trying to knock the forum or its members, if I didn't think this place was worthwhile I wouldn't be a member. The attitude that if you have to ask a question you shouldn't be trying it is a bad one to have. Just because someone doesn't know the ins and outs of trailer fabrication doesn't mean they aren't capable of the project with a little guidance.
Reply:Having read only 85% of this thread Please excuse me if I restate something.Fusion King and Sundown; are on the right track here: in answering the OP's question. "So just how does a hobbyist or guy turning pro know when he should start taking on trailers, vehicle fabs/mods and so on?"  With their comments about the design being as important if not more important than the weld it self. A properly designed dynamic structure will not depend solely on the connector,(be it a, bolt, weld, pin...) but rather on the joint design. When are you ready... when you are smart enough to find the right person to ask the question of "am I ready"  Designing the trailer is the more important concern IMO. One can design a structure that is vary dependent on the weld or one that is vary dependent on the joint.  Quote from F.K "A well designed structure many times could be bolted instead of welded if it is assembled in the correct manner.I feel far too many people put WAY WAY too much stock into their welds in the first place."Most truck frames are riveted or bolted, not welded.  If you don't understand why then you are not ready. A splice in a truck frame is a BIG deal how it is accomplished is a BIG deal. If you don't understand why you are not ready. In closing if you are confident in what you are doing, confident not arrogant, then you might be ready. Confident that you will understand at the outset that you don't know it all. You will ask for advise. You will do your research. You will know why you are doing it this way and not that way.
Reply:With all the yrs of experience on this site, I've found when someones asks a question, after searching first for the answer and then gets talked down to for asking. In most cases the person talking down to them doesn't know the answer anyway.   I think a lot of the older members get irritated w/ some questions because that same question was asked and answered just a few days before and the present questioner didn't take the time to search for it.  As has been said on here before, the only stupid question is the one that wasn't asked.  As for when are they ready, we all know deep in our gut when we're ready to build something that can put lives on the line. Never been stick certified, but after 32 yrs of keeping rock crushers and all associated eqpt together I feel confident enough to build a tlr if I needed to. You just need to look in the mirror and ask yourself if you feel with absolute certainty you can build a tlr, swingset, stairs, handrails or anything else w/ lives or personal safety depending on it.                                 MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:Fill your mouth full of marbles.Every time you make a b*tchin weld spit out a marble.When you lost all you marbles you might be a real welder.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:Fat Bastard mentioned something that a lot of experienced welder/fabricators take for granted and that is the element of design.  After working on jobs, doing lift calculations, talking with engineers on jobs, really looking at how things are designed and trying to understand why, etc. you start to get a good idea of proper designs.  Serve an apprenticeship and you will learn about vector quantities, resultant forces, resolution of forces, equilibrants, center of gravity, laws of motion, dynamic and static loads, mechanical advantage, moments and a lot more.    These are the things many hobby welders never learn and that is where they will run into the greatest problems with design.  It's not impossible to learn from a book by yourself but you will learn so much more by doing, under the guidance of pros.  I've done things of this nature for longer than I care to admit and I, by no means, consider myself an engineer.  Capable of making an educated guess, but not a pro."The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State, because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."  Teddy RooseveltAmerican by birth, Union by choice!  Boilermakers # 60America is a Union.
Reply:My definition of a hobby guy: a guy that doesn't absolutely need to weld, doesn't derive any money or gratuity from welding and only welds becuse it's fun or he/she perceives that it is enjoyable or quicker easier and cheaper than hiring someone else to weld it or buying one of whatever it is. IE., you only weld because you want to. Even farmers and ranchers all into to this category.Regardless of my definition I definitely fall into the hobby category. I am one of they, one of those you guys are talking about. That's fine. I don't mind hearing the input. I fact input is necessary to ones growth. No external input and you find yourself digging deep deep holes based on your own best advice. Some of it pisses me off but it isn't life shattering. Some can even be life saving. I take what was said a sort through it.    How about we take a look at driving. Sometimes I think you guys are too close to welding to give a neutral assessment. When was or when is a newby ready to drive? At what point do you feel comfortable with letting a person who is in practice take the keys to a 6,000 lb lethal weapon and launch it down the road at 70 miles an hour? With your child were you comfortable after they passed their training at school? How about after they passed their training at school and went to the motor vehicle department and passed their writtin and driving test? Did you just hand them the keys and say "that's good enough for me" ? How many miles does one driver have to log before he is no longer subject to critique? Are all drivers equal once they get their certification? Can a guy that has never driven never drive unless he's first driven a logging truck through the mountains as well as done motor cycle stunts on national TV AND won the Indy 500 and is now making his entire living from driving ? How many people would be allowed to drive if you 1st had to get approval through some professional truck drivers association? When are you willing to give advice on driving without telling that person they shouldn't even be allowed on the road?One guy here might say " put the keys down and step away from the car". Another might say "let me show you how to get it started". Who is right and who is wrong? Are there some people who will just never get it and shouldn't be out there? You bet, but they still are.I'm sure some of you guys would tell me to put the stinger down and step away from the welder. That's okay.  I think some questions don't have a good answer.I also think the question can be when are you willing to let go? Life is complicated. Now back to welding. Keep on posting.Last edited by Sandy; 01-16-2010 at 04:21 PM.
Reply:IF there was a 100% way of knowing,  I doubt that there would be much free enterprise left in this country. I think there are certain criteria that can prepare a person for a situation requiring a professional quality weld, such as the case with many farm background guys who have a chance to watch and observe other welders and try a hand at fixing a disc harrow or plow or two, or even build a unique piece of equipment to fit their needs and have the ability to see their welds hold up or destroyed in non threatening, but real world conditions.  This kind of trial by fire also helps with fabrication skills and problem solving which to me is as important as being able to get two pieces of metal to flow together.I think a series of questions are in order:1) Can you visualize the completed project, down to its weld locations WITHOUT a plan?  I am not saying not to have a plan, but can you see your completed work in your head without needing a picture drawn for you? 2) Can you mentally work through each step of the project before you do it? Can you think ahead to problems with your design, by seeing issues with interference, fitup, assembly order etc?3) Are you only able to weld one style of welding, or are you only familiar with one brand or type of welder?  Cross training quickly reveals flaws in your welding ability. It'll test your patience, and understanding of welding. Welding with multiple brands also teach you how to properly "sense" and setup a welder to do the job. Now, I know many good welders only can weld one process or are certified only in one process, but if you are on a job site, no one has confidence in the guy who has been only MIG welding for a few years.  Specialization is good in the medical field and to some extent in welding, it has been popularized.  But when it comes down to it, the guy who can do it all commands the most respect and is always in a job.4) How often do you weld?  Is it something you do once a month?  Or a couple times a year?  Or, is it a daily thing or at least a couple of times a week. 5)  What is your motivation for welding? So you can brag to your buddies, or is so you can learn a little humility?  Guys weld for a number of reasons, but bravado only makes you good in your own eyes and can cloud a mind so you cannot see your own inabilities.I really don't think there is one answer to this question.  I think it has many answers.  What defines one's readiness in one situation, may not be suitable for another situation.  There are endless variables of experience, knowledge, skill, intuition, and training that go into making someone ready.  The best way for someone to know if they are ready is to have someone tell them they are, whether its by having someone willing to pay them to do so, or by them receiving some other sort of recognition.Testing, yes it is a way to know if your weld will hold, but it is only part of the equation.  Fabrication abilities is an equal part.  You must be a problem solver, a fixer, and inventor.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Design design design designAnd a little more than half azzed glue gun workAnd if you don't have second thoughts about something new to you STEP AWAY FROM THE WELDER AND PUT YOUR HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:How many miles does one driver have to log before he is no longer subject to critique? NEVER EVER!!!!!But then you knew this Sandy. I have been learning to weld for 36 years now, and to drive for 31, to live for ever. The question at hand was when is he/she ready to tackle the tough project? Not if you or anyone likes the FREE advise given on a FREE forum. The more one dislikes the advise, the more likely they should heed that advise.Last edited by Fat Bastard; 01-17-2010 at 02:11 PM.Originally Posted by Broccoli1Quickly as you can, snatch the Stinger from my hand.  When you can take the Stinger from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.
Reply:I think many of the guys have come up with experience and self honesty, do you kid yourself or do you really know when you have a weld you would trust. I have not welded on a daily basis for more than 15 years, As I have changed my income source if you will. When I did weld I did it often 7 days a week, for 12 sometimes 14 hrs a day. I did that for 16 years, inside, outside , good condition, poor conditions. I have a ton of really good equipment and I now do side jobs for people maybe 6-8 times per month.  Does that make me a hobby guy or a pro in your eyes? I have worked with a multitude of people all pro's by definition. Some great and far superior to myself and some that couldn't carry my welding rod. Maybe you have experience when you know I can put a 1 inch weld on a piece , put it in a vice and beat the **** out of it in 1 direction and come from the other side and break it by pushing with my hand, don't understand? try it, a lot of arc welds are strong in 1 direction but not the other. How do I know, some old timer showed me when I was 17. When I want to take on a new project like a trailer, I look real close at some of the quality stuff on the road and I copy it, I see what size channel crossmembers they use and how far apart. Take pictures , as far as weld integrity I have taken a lot of tests , You know when your welds are sound when you lay them, you know if you penetrate, you know what your joint prep was, you see how the puddle wets out and lays down, wether you are fusing both pieces, You also know when it is crap, poor fit up, rust, slag entrapment whatever. Being a " Pro" doesn't make you a good welder, pride, interest in the art and craft and a desire to alway learn and improve makes you a good welder.    Now this latest post is a little more suttle in nature, and after many members here have called you on it, you have tried to clean up what was a pretty nasty attack on the guy. I for one will tell you I don't care wether you consider me a "Pro" or  a " Hobbyist"."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:I'd like to thank those that have contributed to the discussion about the original question. I was a bit surprised at the direction the general consensus so far has taken. I'd expected more responses on how guys could prove their skills as suggested by a few. Maybe it's because I look at things from my point of view a bit differently from the experience and training I've got, and the direction I 'm looking at going. I'll cover that a bit later. One of the best items that I think gets glossed over by way too many is this statement. Originally Posted by Mega Arc 5040DDIt's not just knowing what you can do it's also knowing and accepting what you can't do or shouldn't do. ...When I first started welding I always wanted to build my own trailer and thought I was ready. I never got the chance for one reason or another. Looking back I realize I didn't have the necessary skills. I only figured that out after acquiring those skills....
Reply:Some really good replies here!Here is a mash hauler my employer and I built (while still under construction) with two helpers. The drawings were made by a third fellow.I personally welded both frame rails by hand, (CWB certified) FCAW with a back-and-forth between sides procedure 24" at a time. I also did most of the welding on the boxes.We did it all the metal work except bending the flanges and fenders. We installed purchased axles of course.This was in 1990 or '91 and it's still on the road. It hauls beer mash to pig farms for feed. Attached ImagesLast edited by Marcel Bauer; 01-17-2010 at 06:04 PM.[B]Forever learning[B].
Reply:DSW, I am sure your skills are quite good, and it also seems that you are in pursuit of a new qualifiation, the crane booms, something I have held in the past. And it also seems that you are connected with someone who is skilled in that particular area. But even though you are skilled , you have found and area that is new territory, not completely foreign , but a little different.  That being said, not all here have access to the bend test, charpy, and others.  Maybe they don't have the finances or whatever. What they are doing is there next best tutorial, they are asking the advice of the general membership here for some online tutoring if you will. Isn't that sort of what you are doing with the person you are consulting on crane booms, only thing is you have direct access to that person which is even better. How would you feel if you had approached that person and instead of encouraging they just said "if you have to ask, you should not be doing this" after all , a crane boom is a whole different animal when it comes to liability, stress, and ultimately life safety.  As to the question and replies it's a very toughg question to answer, we all know about the cert tests, and we won't even go into how many there are and for what material and process, position etc.  If someone asks another if they love there mother and they reply yes, what do they say when asked to prove it. I guess every welder should strive to get at least a general all position structural cert. It does say you have a basic understanding of weldment.  I am not being a smart guy here, but may I ask you when you felt you were ready, I mean really ready and what kind of time did you have behind you at that point. I do agree with you, and I mean myself now, That there was a point early on that I thought I could do it all and realized later I didn't know as much as I thought I did. But I feel that way about many things in my life, and I tend to feel that way about every 8-10 years looking back in my life not just welding but a multitude of things, education, parenting, finances. I think most do, it's human nature.  No hard feelings."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:This is quite a topic, Doug.  I don't suspect that there will be a clear answer, as it is different for everyone. It is all about experience, but how does one get experience without doing things?  It's been around 15 yrs since I struck my first arc.  I was doing alot of four wheeling and one of the main reasons to learn welding was for repairs and modifications to the jeep.  I got an AC/DC buzzbox, read everything I could get my hands on, and spent as much time as I could practicing.  I'm sure some of my early projects would have raised a few eyebrows around here, but with my relatively low level of experience, I tended to over build things. Two things that come to mind are a transmission crossmember for a yj, and a rear spring hanger for a '79 K-10. Both saw lots of off road and on road time. Both were way overbuilt, and both had critical welds. Looking back, I probably didn't have enough experience to be doing that kind of stuff, but i didn't know any better. On the flip side, though, I was smart enough to question wether or not I should weld on a frame, so both parts were bolted on with grade 8 bolts. I also made all welds "in position" (flat), and had done a decent bit of destructive testing on scrap. I still own both of those trucks and neither part has failed after years of service.  A good argument could be made that I " wasn't ready"  to build those parts. I think the difference is that even then, I think I worked within my skill set, and had a real understanding of the consequences of doing a sub-par job.  Some of the questions I read here from new guys just blow my mind, especially when they are given good advice and then argue about it. I've always tried to get close to the older, more talented guys and soak up every bit of knowledge I can get. This has been pretty long winded, but I guess I think you are "ready" when you know the right questions to ask and how to get the right answers.  In that same vein, the design aspects that have been mentioned should not be understated.  If you can design a part so that it does not rely on a perfect weld to make it strong, but is strong based on the shape and location, you will have a better job... but that goes right back to knowing the right questions to ask.  That is why so many new guys get pounced on immediately. Their questions tell the tale.
Reply:Come on, you put the two pieces of metal together and you weld them.How hard is that.Anybody can do it.The out of work, so called welding pros need to stop crying.
Reply:Originally Posted by JohnnyWelderCome on, you put the two pieces of metal together and you weld them.How hard is that.Anybody can do it.The out of work, so called welding pros need to stop crying.
Reply:I am also a hobbyist, I don't have to weld for a living, but I want to learn to TIG weld properly/safely and am trying to do so.I am taking some courses, have bought a TIG welder that I am using to practice, and I am making progress.However, I too struggle with the reality that I may never be truly proficient at welding (in my case, 4130 and MS tubing and plate), or maybe I will become proficient and not know or realize it.So, I find that training and practicing is one thing (which I am doing), knowing that I've reached the promised land (and how that should/would happen) is still a mystery.I appreciate the folks on this site sharing their knowledge, I've learned a lot from them and/or been advised on where I can go find the details on welding, wiring, processes, etc.  The more I dig, the more I realize there is more to it all, however I know this is all part of the process.Good thread.Regards to all.Working on cars and bikes is my hobby, learning to weld the pieces together is my quest.
Reply:Originally Posted by kolotDSW, I am sure your skills are quite good, ...
Reply:I think there are two old fashioned sayings that come to mind:A man who considers himself wise in his own eyes is a fool.The moment a man considers himself full of humility, just lost it.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:There isn't a clear distinction in quality between a hobby welder and a professional welder any more then between a professional chef and moms stew.  There are doctors and salesmen building hot rod frames as a hobby that would make most pro's envious, and there are pro's welding pipelines that look like heck and fail inspections.The difference is that a good professional MUST do great work to stay in the trade, while a good hobby welder does it only for the feeling of acomplishing something difficult and doing it well.note-I am not a welder-and the same opinion between pro and hobby apply to every skill, not just welding. Both have skill levels and just getting a paycheck isn't a fair way to indicate skill.
Reply:Hey Knotbored,First, since you indicate: "I am not a welder", definitely concurs with your idiotic response. Your analogy is so far in the left field of the Twilight Zone, it is apparent you have no conception, nor concern regarding any application that has to do with SAFETY. Also, your comparison of a chef & mom really show the level of your overall comprehension of the personal dedication a professional has to endure & years of hard work to attain that level. You need to re-read the responses in true depth & hopefully you have some intelligence to understand each responders' concerns with defining the varied parameters when welding/fabricating. Maybe you should stay on the cooking forums & post your opinions there....DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:Knotbored... Where to start?I think I get the point you are attempting to make,... and I can see why you ruffled Denny's feathers.In my estimation, and I'm sure others, the definition of "professional" implies a much higher level of proficiency, and accountability.I think you understate the investment made by true professionals in their craft...Aside from that, you are missing the point. The topic is to discuss how someone knows when they are ready to tackle a job...project...build( insert level of professionalism )  that could potentially hurt someone.I think this is a really good question, and without naming names, there are a bunch more guys whose opinions I'd like to hear on the topic.You know who you are!
Reply:OK I get the point-butMaybe the words Professional welder is my point.Not everyone using a welder and drawing wages for it is a professional any more then everyone holding a spachula is a chef (to stay with the cooking comparison.)There are huge differences in quality among welders just like every other craft.also to clarify I am not a welder-but worked for a year setting up for welders at an aircraft plant, and had a desk job reviewing xrays rejected at a nuclear plant and scheduled and planned a significant federal office building through completion so I am not totally unfamiliar with the trades.I don't weld because I have an ailment called essential tremor and my shaking would create welds looking like signatures.  I am also old and crochity. I had no intent of downplaying tallented welder-but I stick by my opinion that there is no clear talent line between someone drawing a wage and a hobyist.
Reply:Hobby to professional...wow that's quite a leap. I love to weld and do it as only a hobby and only do it for myself (no friends, no co-workers, no neighbors).My rule of thumb...I'll design it, build it, or fix it, as long as there is a 100% chance I won't put my own health at risk (mostly stuff that hangs off the 3 point of my tractor...if something breaks it's only gonna hit the ground...nothing has yet).  Yeah, "I think" I could design and build a trailer, for example, to haul my quads around but I can't, and won't, put others at risk just because I think I can.My 2 cents on classes at a college (community or other) is yeah it's OK for some insight and basics but that's about it (yep even a full blown degree).If you want to go pro then go find a pro, after you've got all the basics+ down pat.  Beg to work for cheap or free and learn everything possible that years and years of actual on the job experience has taught these guys.  Then, when they say you're ready, you're ready.I've seen a lot of threads about..."hey I just weld out of my garage and a guy came in wanting me to fix his...fill in the blank".  I cringe at all of these.  Yep, I'm sure it's cheaper but I also KNOW there's a reason it's cheaper.Anyway...I'm sure I'll take some shots for this but that's why I say it's ONLY my 2 cents.Very interesting thread.
Reply:Interesting thread.I'm a hobby welder. Always will be. But over the last 4 years, I've probably had 800+ hours under the hood. I've worked with all kinds of materials, from 22gauge stainless to 3/4" mild steel. So I'm an experienced hobby welder, not a newbie. What I do weld, I'm confidant  won't fail. Are all my welds perfect - nope. Do I continue to practice? - regularly. Can I get better? - certainly. Are there times that I make a weld and grind it out and do it over? - unfortunately yes. And there are welds that I wouldn't attempt.I think "when you're ready" comes down to knowledge of your capabilities, AND an understanding of your limitations. If you're at the point where you can objectively evaluate your own capabilities, and provide an accurate critique of your own welds consistant with the assessment of true experts, then you're on your way. When you can look at a job, understand what the weld process should be, then decide you're not ready to try it - you're on your way.Each and every person will have a different point when they "get there". It takes practice, training/mentoring, and real world experience. The Hammer and Vise test helps with understanding your capabilities but it isn't definitive. Slicing through and etching a joint and understanding what to look for helps. So does cutting out a coupon and bending it and observing the result. So does asking a knowledgeable mentor for their opinion and understanding their answers.And - If you don't understand why the pros are concerned about the subject -then you're clearly not there yet .
Reply:....Well....could be a lot of ways to answer that question.....but I'd say...if you have to ask...you're not quite ready yet..  Bolted truck frames.....yes, that's the deal there...but how many of you know 'why' they aren't welded???Dougspair
Reply:Originally Posted by dougspair....Well....could be a lot of ways to answer that question.....but I'd say...if you have to ask...you're not quite ready yet..  Bolted truck frames.....yes, that's the deal there...but how many of you know 'why' they aren't welded???
Reply:Originally Posted by KnotboredOK I get the point-butMaybe the words Professional welder is my point.Not everyone using a welder and drawing wages for it is a professional any more then everyone holding a spachula is a chef (to stay with the cooking comparison.)There are huge differences in quality among welders just like every other craft.also to clarify I am not a welder-but worked for a year setting up for welders at an aircraft plant, and had a desk job reviewing xrays rejected at a nuclear plant and scheduled and planned a significant federal office building through completion so I am not totally unfamiliar with the trades.I don't weld because I have an ailment called essential tremor and my shaking would create welds looking like signatures.  I am also old and crochity. I had no intent of downplaying tallented welder-but I stick by my opinion that there is no clear talent line between someone drawing a wage and a hobyist.
Reply:interesting thread... this makes me think of the guys at school who have gotten certified, but I would not trust them to weld anything that could put a humans safety in jeopardy. I think I am ready for certain processes in certain applications, but I know my limits and I am far from being the all around welder I'd like to be. I think in a given process used in a given application if you can visualize what your weld will look like before welding it, visualize what it would look like if you cut or ground it open to see the exact penetration, and solid sound fill. no undercutting and the profile will turn out the way you anticipated it would with a concave, convex, or flush profile, good tie in at the toes, and it would pass a bend or ut rt test, and your weld actually turns out that way 100% of the time, then you are ready for that process in that application. but not to leave out that if something does not go right during your weld, ie. wind during mig, arc blow, or anything else, you as a professional or competent welder should know that the weld might need to be ground or gouged out and re-welded sound, you should always know if something doesn't go right in a weld, during the weld, failure to recognize a bad weld while welding means you are not ready, and in my opinion this only comes with lots of practice and experience, constant coupon fills, and then cutting them and bending them. I would always pay close attention to a weld while welding it and when I got arc blow or the puddle was stubborn I would take note of the part of the plate and I would cut it there to see what the result was and what turned out to be acceptable and not acceptable. I spent three full semesters of doing 1" plate v grooves and cutting and bending coupons, I would mess up on purpose to see how the results turned out so I could learn what you can and can not get away with. I also have to say that the first three or so plates I did passed perfectly, it bothered me that you can just go in and fill a plate bend it and then get your papers, I think at school they should emphasize more on what I did so people can learn. too many people take the test and get lucky
Reply:Originally Posted by eyeball engineer I spent three full semesters of doing 1" plate v grooves and cutting and bending coupons
Reply:....Maybe when you can do this everytime.....MIG.... 1/4" A36, 3/32" gap...no vee....035", C02....V-up....30 year old Airco welder machine    Cut/polish/etch w/Nytal...bend...    These pics might answer some of the previous questions about wire/gas/etc.... Attached ImagesDougspair
Reply:Very nice pics above. This thread started in part because some people were doing mods on vehicles or building trailers etc. and could possibly jeopardize safety on the road. There is a  difference between a welder that needs to pass xray for process piping and trailer building. I wouldnt think someone needs to be an xray welder to build a trailer. Good mig skills are all thats necessary for trailer building because we all have seen some manufacturers trailers on the road and what the welds look like on them. I would trust most on this forum competent enough to build a trailer.
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughes I know guys who are certified in many processes and had such natural ability that they picked up welding very easily. They still have to practice very much to achieve high skill level or proficiency at this craft.But, there are certainly some hobbyists who could very easily make a living at welding.