Econotig & bottle cart. Tips please?

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Hi here's my second ever TIG welds. I'm building a cart for the welder and bottle, any help or critique would be welcome. I've done FCAW and some O/A welding but never TIG. I can tell some of these welds are undesirable, but I can't seem to find a sweet spot while guiding the torch.Steel is 1 1/2 square 16 Gauge.Welder set to 40 % (max would be 60 amps? with pedal all the way down).Argon 15 CFHTungsten is 1/16th Black 1% Lanthiated ( I know.. I screwed up the order I wanted 2%). I think I'll try Red tomorrow I have 1 7 inch. Attached ImagesLast edited by o.c.d.; 03-19-2007 at 09:56 PM.Reason: Changing picture order
Reply:More pictures Attached Images
Reply:Not bad, although you don't mention wire...were you fusing? I probably would have used 3/32 tung on that but it's just a preference. The 1/16 is fine for that but a little more heat would be a little better. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Pretty good welds for your second time tigging. Looks like you have some slight craters at the end of a few of the beads, are you holding the torch over the weld durring post-flow?Also you mite want to pratice a little more before finishing your cart, I know I wish the beads on my mig cart were nicer, also that's a heavy machine so you want to make sure you're getting full penetration so you won't have to worry about strength.
Reply:Thanks Microzone. I was using 1/16th 70S-2 when needed. I cut the steel with my nice (was nice) compound miter with a cutoff wheel to ensure that the 45's were better than my 14 inch chopsaw. This created such a tight fit I that was amazed, so I did not use much filler at all, only when the joint was not touching, and in the inside corners, the arc kept wondering, so I had to press the pedal down farther and actually burned through in the center of one inside corner. I haven't used the 3/32 yet, but I guess I'll have to give it a try, it seems to me that the penetration may not be as deep as it ought to be using the 1/16th, so like I said I'll try it. Although, the bottom frame is 36" long and I had to do some re-squaring if you know what I mean before I put the final end piece on, this proved that the welds were strong as none popped or broke loose. I'll take some scrap pieces tomorrow along with some red 3/32 tungsten and see what I can do with it.Thanks for the information, actually you told me a long time ago that 3/32 would probably work best in this machine.Thanks man.
Reply:Maxyedor,  Sorry I was replying when you posted. I was trying to hold the torch over the weld as I ended for post-flow, trying that is. Some I did, and some only for a few seconds. I definately need to work on those. And I agree, I need to test a little bit more before I commit to the current bottom. I can garantee it will be strong enough to hole the welder and cylinder but nicer welds are what I'm after.
Reply:Ah, I think it will hold up fine.  This is what he's doing it for.  Whats the econotig weigh anyhow.  Wish my first 45's fit that nice.  I would go ahead and use a filler no matter what o.c.d.  Its not good to have alot of fill, but the extra filler in this case will only help the strength out.  It will give a nicer appearance to your beads as well.  Keep up the good work!  I havent worked with anything thinner than 1/8 so far, so your one up on me..One thing I noticed on corner 2 is the heat line is a bit uneven, like you had the torch tilted a bit.  Remember to try and keep the tungsten 90 deg to the work piece with a 5 to 10 deg angle in the bead direction.  I know, easier said than done.Various GrindersVictor Journeyman torch200cf Acet. 250cf oxygenLincoln 175 plus/alpha2 gunLincoln v205t tigLincoln 350mpEsab 650 plasmaWhen you can get up in the morning, Its a good day.Live each day like its your last.
Reply:Great Work OCD.  Seriously, with some time on your machine you wil be amazing yourself.  Have Fun !!  Brian MoyerMoyer Welding & Fabrication       LaSalle MI
Reply:Looks good for a second timer.  I think my second time I didn't get to weld cause I was still grinding my tungsten DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:I went ahead and grinded 10 tungstens before I started, I think I have 5 left that are clean. The welder weighs ~ 150 to 160 lbs, the cylinder ?? It is a S tank, it feels like maybe 100 lbs??Like I said earlier, I think I'll cut some 45's on some scrap tonight and try 1/16and 3/32 red tungsten with more current and filler. This is what I should have done to start with, with the freaking price of steel I certainly don't want to burn up any of my cart pieces!
Reply:Good grief!  This is a cart he is using himself, it is not production work for resale. It is to hold a welder, not the queen's crown jewels.  Looks like an outstanding job to me.
Reply:It is an outstanding job but he wanted help or advice on his technique...which is just what we are doing. Too much coffee this morning?  John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Yepper, the Econo is a heavy little sucker - net weight is 140 lbs.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Pookie,  I could post some pictures of my Lincoln 100HD FCAW cart, but I'm too embarrassed. I swore I would never drink that much again while building something, and think things over for a while before getting started.  My master plan is to learn to make nice strong welds with TIG building this welding machine cart, then a small welding table, TIG is cool because now I can weld inside and there’s not alot of cleanup afterwards, it also looks like I can use this thing in nice clothes. So now I lay down a few beads, take the kids wherever, get back and do some more without my wife griping that I look like a homeless person.  Finally, I’ve got 4 kids so every time I get some play money they spend it for me, so a car restoration is out of the question right now. However, I’ve always wanted to build a go cart with a 4 cylinder motorcycle engine, so far I have the steel, the motorcycle (83 Kawasaki GPZ 550 w/3400 original miles) and everything but the rims and tires for the cart.  So you see, that’s why I’m interested in nice looking strong welds.Tom
Reply:Looks good so far..But I'd like to see less undercut on the welds.. ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Zap, forgive for my ignorance but what is "Undercut"? I tried the red 3/32nd it may have been a little bettter, but not that noticable so I went back to what I have the most of whicg is freaking black 1/16th (should have been green but I screwed up). Also cranked up the current a little and pedal down a little more. I even with more current and what I think as more 70S2 filler the welds look concave. Here's a photo. Please any advise good or bad is fine... Attached ImagesLast edited by o.c.d.; 03-20-2007 at 07:41 PM.Reason: pic did not add in, forgot to resize.
Reply:Here's some more pictures. I think I need to move the tungsten farther away from the base material to get a wider HAZ and more filler. I think this is why some of the welds were concave?? Attached Images
Reply:OCD, undercut is a weld defect that presents itself as a cut line along the outside edges of the weld.  It can be caused by a few different issues, but the easy answer is the weld wasn't allowed to fill the crater you created.  Could be caused by too fast travel or too hot amperage.  Brian MoyerMoyer Welding & Fabrication       LaSalle MI
Reply:Originally Posted by moyersmobileOCD, undercut is a weld defect that presents itself as a cut line along the outside edges of the weld.  It can be caused by a few different issues, but the easy answer is the weld wasn't allowed to fill the crater you created.  Could be caused by too fast travel or too hot amperage.
Reply:Well, I would say that undercut -IS- bad.Undercut is a surface discontinuity, and also reduces the cross-sectional area and moments of inertia, and therefore is a potential starting point for cracking (fatigue or other) and mechanical failure of the weld.Structures have enough chances to break or fail without you adding to the potential failure points.  So, don't add any.  Like undercut, or start/stop craters, or concave weld profiles, or etc, etc, etc.Now, the specific application in this case, a home-use TIG cart holding a machine and a gas cylinder and some other stuff, probably has a slim-to-none chance of fatigue failure being a problem.  A trailer going down the road, or a rotating machinery piece is a whole nuther kettle of fish.Hey Zap, can you fix the spelling in your sig?  You want "difference" and not "diffrence", and in the image you want "loses" and not "looses".
Reply:Alot of good points/information, but remember that many of us are just lucky to figure out how to set a bead!  Looks good enough for this job (IMHO), and if it bugs you then by all means redo it!Zap's signature keeps catching my eye too, but am certain that he did it just to drive us nuts...ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:Good points/information, but remember that many of us are just lucky to figure out how to set a bead!  Looks good enough for this job (IMHO), and if it bugs you then by all means redo it!Zap's signature keeps catching my eye too, but am certain that he did it just to drive us nuts...ThermalArc 185MillerMatic 180 w/ AutosetVictor Cutskill Oxy/AcetyleneThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 38and spite!
Reply:Hey Zap, can you fix the spelling in your sig? You want "difference" and not "diffrence", and in the image you want "loses" and not "looses".
Reply:Thanks for all the information. I'll say it again, you guy's are the best around. Some of my welds are getting a better, thay still suck in my opinion. I see clearly I have no consistency, but hopefully that will come with time. Here's some of the better welds I have done after understanding what "undercut" is and making some changes to my movement. I think I'll re-weld all of those concave undercut welds again. One thing I realize first hand now is a water cooled torch is almost a must, I couldn't comprehend a rubber/plastic handled torch getting so hot through a welding glove that it had to be put down to cool. Well, now I understand. Thanks again for all the information. Anyway here's those pictures. Attached Images
Reply:Pic 1..EhhhPic 2..BetterPic 3.. See the corner?Bad undercut.. Looks like you have got the hang of it..But try less heat..say 20-30 amps...and more filler...It may take more time for the initial heat to "work" with less heat..But over time with everything getting hotter as you go......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.Hi Zap,  I lowered the heat big time, I aslo tried 3/32 filler because I've got a lot of it. Went very slow, you were right when you said slow heat buildup, it seems to take a while to get started but after that slow and steady (as steady as I can being new to this).So far all the tips have helped, again thanks to you and everyone. Attached ImagesLast edited by o.c.d.; 03-22-2007 at 03:40 PM.
Reply:Crap, one more question. Here's a picture from one of those welds I redone with less heat. It seems like I asked this question before , but here's goes. The 70S-2 I have has a copper coating, It looks like this copper is melting and is being forced out along either side of the weld. Will this cause a problem? should I sand it off the rods before I use them, or just ignore it? In the picture it looks like flux or similar along each side of the weld, it flakes off, and has a brownish burnt appearance.Thanks again. Attached Images
Reply:The "crap" out the side is from the metal itself..The filler has nothing to do with it.. Try grinding the scale off each piece from the weld area to about 1/2" or so..Wipe with acetone and then see the results.. You're getting better.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I agree, prep your material better - the square tubing. It doesn't look like you've ground it or anything, almost like your welding it with the scale still there?John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Yea, I kinda screwed the pooch on that one, and 2 more. I got in the habit of sanding and not using the acetone. In the picture I did nothing but light sanding. I realized this when I made another signiture mistake, one I'm famous for. Before starting I made my measurments and decided on a common sled type cart. Well.... during the cut build process I decided to change 2 things, one the height of the front of the welder from the base. This from 4 inches to 8, this caused my angles to be 15 deg with a 3 1/4 inch in the rear. And second the length of the cart. Long story short, with this angle even with overage on the length of the cart (so I thought), the cylinder touches the back handle of the welder. I was cussing... Well I broke out the handy angle grinder and cut out the inside back of the base, where the cylinder will rest, I then welded in a 16 gauge piece to cover the hole. I realized that I was NOT cleaning the material like I should as all of this was ground, sanded like a mirror and then cleaned with acetone. It melted like butter on a hot summer day ( still think the lowes 16 gauge sheet metal is made from Japan steel, it burns like no tomorrow). Here's some pictures of that fiasco. The welds still need a LOT of improvement ( they really suck in my opinion) , again any advise is more than welcome.Here's the tack up. Attached Images
Reply:Here's the final, heat almost as low as the Econotig will go.. 10%, no pedal other than turning the machine/gas on. You will notice that I stopped 3 times on the long run. Got my filler fu'd (too short) and burned a hole in the inside left screwing around and dipped the tungsten in the weld. Had swap tungsten fill the hole and finish ( notice the yellow ).... Attached Images
Reply:I guess I suck, I'll continue, but hell. I think thicker stuff may be easier with this welder. Or new hands on me!
Reply:Just gotta have patients..... The more you burn the more you learn...
Reply:You're doing good, it takes time...and you know what, that cart will hold together forever.John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Thanks for the vote of confididence, Just got back from a emergency server call, first Chicago then down to Indianapolis..When I get some sleep I'll continue on. So far here's the latest.o.c.d.
Reply:Here's that pic. o.c.d. Attached Images
Reply:Looks really good for only being your second time TiG welding.  Keep it up!Only advice I have is patience, don't try to rush when TiGing and work on a rhythm to get your bead evened out, count to yourself (1..2..dip..1..2..dip..etc...) or maybe listen to some music while you weld and dip to the beat -Jason
Reply:Here's some pic's of the cart so far. o.c.d.Bottom Cylinder support plate. Attached Images
Reply:Another.Cylinder support welds. Attached Images
Reply:cart this far.. Attached Images
Reply:Nice looking cart so far. Looks like I could park my truck on that thing. That's gotta be one of the strongest carts I've ever seen.Keep it up.My Photos on Flickr
Reply:Thanks Wildcat,  I did not intend for it to be this beefy. Hopefully I'll get done with it this week.