Anyone build clicker dies?

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Curious if anyone here builds clicker dies?  I work with leather and I'm thinking about experimenting with building a die or two.  As it is I order my dies from a company and they are reasonable prices and great quality.  I'm just doing this for fun and don't forsee replacing my current vendor.
Reply:What are clicker dies?
Reply:It is essentially a punch in the shape of an item.  Think of a cookie cutter.  I use them on leather.
Reply:Monica, make them   Take an old  chisel and anneal the end to soften it and hand cut out your pattern... dremels etc as U can... then harden the end back.  Navajoes and Hopi do it regularly for silver and leather work.  They also use "found objects" to cut silver and leather like old files etc... You might try googling the silversmithing and leather work methods  of Navajoes and Hopi to see what you find? They also go one step further,  They make the male/cut pattern by upsetting (make it a ball like a blacksmith does) the end of a chisel, then cut the pattern, then harden it... next they upset a slightly larger  end on another chisel end and heat that to near melting/red or more... chuck it in a vise and then drive the hardened male (first one) into the second chisel.  You end up with a matched set which can cut out a piece like the cookie cutter idea.  Hopi  blacken the backing silver strip and then cut out patterns on the top strip and lay it over the lower one... U end up with relief patterns, black in the center.   I've got some of these that are about 100 years old, I'll try to get them out and snap a pic or two. enjoy, PLLast edited by PapaLion; 07-06-2010 at 08:54 PM.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:My apologies to the Navajo nation, I added an "e" at the end? I cannot spell anymore? Here are some pics, not too good, of several of mine. The bear feet left/right are a Hopi set made from valve stems and some small axle I think. There is a butterfly set, the others are 1 piece markers from files, valve stems and chisels. Finally is a heart maker pliars, a factory item from around 1920-30  which could have other stamps, but I only got the heart one.   Most objects like flowers, bear feet etc are Hopi, the more abstract ones could be Navajo.  These came to me from Hopi friends at Hotevilla on 2nd Mesa which is in North Eastern Az and are estimated early  20th century around 1920-30 or so.Other tools to seek are older Osborne items with brass ferrules and hardwood handles.Dies/stamps you make are unique, ones U buy are the same as everyone elses.   . Attached ImagesLast edited by PapaLion; 07-07-2010 at 02:24 PM.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Thanks PapaLion, those stamps are definitely one of a kind.  Unfortunately, having one hand, I don't stamp.  Though I've toyed with tracing/tooling on an extremely basic level (if is can be qualified as that!)  lolWhat I'm actually thinking of clicker dies in the shape pf my patterns.  I've got a lot of patterns I use already, that I trace onto the leather then cut out with an exacto.  I need a die to punch it out instead.  (I build holsters).  Some are more complex than others.  I thought I'd bend and build the simpler patterns.  I use a 12T press, with top and bottom plates.  I sandwich the piece of leather and the die on top then press 'em together.  MLast edited by Monica; 07-07-2010 at 02:30 PM.
Reply:I think it could be done... it would work... I doubt you'd need much force, possibly even just hammer the die from the top (it would be reinforced) and let it cut.  U know the exacto cuts it well if sharp If it is gripped well in a sandwich,  even a flat wooden backplate might suffice vs a true m/f die pair?  So, just a real sharp diecutter, which could be made, sharpened and tempered to a hardness.  positioning would be a good idea, like a snap in/lock in point to hold your materials in place and steady  where all cutting begins so it reproduces easily.We have a couple of real sharp knife fellas on this site who might help you figure that cutting die out?   The ones I have are more for surface embellishment, designs  and patterns on the leather or silver.A basketweave one used in a press for the whole surface or parts of it would be nice. This one cuts  1 1/4" slots in leather for feeding a1" strap thru... it could be mounted to a press easily, not that heavy duty but it cuts easily with a hammer on wet leather.Tom threepersons holster in Bw made by Lawrence in the 70senjoy, PL Attached ImagesLast edited by PapaLion; 07-07-2010 at 02:55 PM.Lincoln Power MIG 215Lincoln WeldPak 3200HDLincon ProCut 25Lincoln WeldanPower 225 AC/DCIf all else fails... buy more tools
Reply:Sounds like a clicker die is something like a steel rule die.Steel rule dies are used to cut cardboard,paper,plastic etc.A thin groove is routed into a piece of plywood in the shape ofthe part to be cut, and then steel blade material (maybe 3/4 x 1/32)blade is bent to fit into the groove.The assembled die is attachedto the upper plate of a press.A big cookie cutter.Miller a/c-d/c Thunderbolt XLMillermatic 180 Purox O/ASmith Littletorch O/AHobart Champion Elite
Reply:Might take a look at leatherworker.net....probably find some guys over there making them. Also see some really cool leatherwork.AlA man is judged by what's between his legs...always ride a good horseMiller DialArc HFLincoln Classic 300DThermal Arc 181iPowermax 45Scotchman Ironworker(2) BridgeportsOkomota Surface GrinderAutoCAD 2010
Reply:jpump5, that's exactly it.  There are several ways they're made.  One is the way you described with a backboard and the metal placed in the grooves to the shape of the pattern needed.  Another is the steel rule is bent into the shape and there is cross bracing welded inside the pattern.  A third way is cut the pattern from a wood board/MDS.  Then wrap the ends with steel rule.  Use screws to secure the rule to the board.Al, already there.  I figured I'd ask some metal guys about it now for a different take, especially if there are any tips or considerations I need to bear in mind working with metal. .
Reply:Monica,There are at least a couple of ways to cut through leather (or many materials).  For metal cutting and shaping some choices could include files, Dremel-type tools (small high speed rotary bits, btw I think the actual Dremel tools have several 'better' competitors that have waaay more power than the little actual Dremel tools.  And yes I have and sometimes use some actual Dremel motor tools.  They have their use, but big power or 'big' jobs are not their forte.    ), other grinders of various shapes and sizes and power levels, milling machines (CNC or manual), lathes for round stuff, graving tools, etc, etc.btw, a plasma cutter is great for cutting through metal, but not really so good for cutting through leather.  A bit depends on how 'fancy' you are trying to get, and also how durable you want the cutter die to be.  Thick tough leather would need a beefier and more durable die set up than say popping through some super thin leather (goat skin, rabbit skin, split leather, etc).  Doing 'production' quantity runs might also be more economical with a more durable and more expensive die set up than constantly replacing or reshaping/resharpening a cheaper and less durable set up.So like most things in life, there are always trade-offs.  Price, quality, durability, ease of use, etc, etc, etc.If you are trying to make a 'simple' shape in your cutter die, then you have to figure out a way to hold the metal (clamp it in a vise or holding fixture, same as someone with two hands would have to do) and then a way to hold and guide the appropriate cutting tools to actually cut and shape the metal as desired.  Some metal cutting tools can be used with just one hand, but even then having a second one to help guide and steady the tool usually gives 'better' and often safer results.So a bit depends on how big a shape you are trying to make, as well as just how 'complicated' you want to make that shape.Than you have the choice of what steel to make your cutter out of.  Trying to scrounge a piece of steel you have available, or going out and buying a piece of known alloy steel so that you can then heat treat it to make it hard and durable so that you can then sharpen it and have a hard and durable cutting edge to it.Trade-offs.Sure it is possible to make your own cutters/tools.  Sometimes it is fun, some times it is rewarding to make yer own, sometimes it is easier and faster and maybe even cheaper (depending on what tools you might have to buy or borrow before you could try and make things yourself) to just go out and buy the cutter/dies.  Trade-offs again.If you have a good supplier of 'standard' cutting dies, maybe just ask them for a blank piece of die and then you can shape it as you want for a custom cutter.  Of course, then you would probably have to figure out a way to heat treat the chunk of steel.  Or if you have a custom design in mind, maybe just see if your die supplier can make that custom die for you.Trade-offs. Again.  The general procedure for making steel tooling is to get the appropriate steel, shape the steel as desired, heat treat (harden and temper) the steel as desired, then sharpen the tool as desired.If you are doing a 'cookie-cutter' type of shape, maybe you can order some thin flat stock, bend it into the desired shape, rough sharpen it to start the cutting edge, heat treat it (harden and temper), then final sharpen it.  Then you mount it to your cutting board.  Hmm, for a 'cookie-cutter' you might rough sharpen the steel strip before bending into the shape.  But usually final sharpening/honing will take place after the steel is hardened and tempered, because the bending and the heat treatment will usually somewhat distort the cutting edge.Just like there are different leathers (full grain cowhide, kangaroo leather, goat skin leather, split leather, etc) there are lots of different steels.  And they have varying uses and strengths and weaknesses.So, yes it is certainly possible to make your own leather working tools/cutters/dies (see above for those interesting Navajo/Hopi items   ).  You have to decide if the trade-offs make it worthwhile for you to try to do so.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Thanks Moon. Don't get me drooling over tools I can't afford yet...plasma cutter.  You're going to make me give my husband a heart attack with another "I think I want a ____."     I've already got a Dremel up in my shop.  It's used early and often for my leather edging and beveling.  For the garage I'm wanting a different grinding tool.  I've been thinking of a bench grinder but it has its limitations due to being a stationary tool rather than a handy hand tool.  I figure for any cutting/chopping I'd use a chop saw to make holding the metal more secure and easy to operate one-handed.  I'm still looking for a hand held grinder.  Not a big thing, I'm in no rush for anything, just poke around until I find what I need.A bit depends on how 'fancy' you are trying to get, and also how durable you want the cutter die to be. Thick tough leather would need a beefier and more durable die set up than say popping through some super thin leather (goat skin, rabbit skin, split leather, etc). Doing 'production' quantity runs might also be more economical with a more durable and more expensive die set up than constantly replacing or reshaping/resharpening a cheaper and less durable set up.
Reply:Monica,The exact type of steel you would use for a tool depends a lot on how big and/or 'fancy' you are thinking of making the 'cookie cutters'.  Trade-offs.As to heating the steel to make it bend easier, sometimes the answer is yes.  But there is a "but" in there.  Improperly heating a chunk of steel can damage the molecular structure of the steel and make it break or otherwise fail later on.  Some steels are more 'picky' about how they are heated, some are more 'forgiving'.As to heating the steel and then trying to wrap it around a wooden form, usually not.  The steel is usually heated up to Red Hot, and then bent.  Red Hot steel and a piece of wood means the wood is on fire.  Fast.  Soaking the wooden form in water and then wrapping a piece of Red Hot steel around that piece of wet wood usually means first there is a cloud of hot steam that comes off the wet wood, and then the wood starts to scorch and then burn.  And the steel is no longer Red Hot and thus doesn't want to easily bend anymore.  In some cases, a wooden form might be used, but usually not for hot steel.  Hot as in around 2000F or a little more.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_workingTapping and pushing a piece of steel?  Not unless it is sheet metal thin, but that probably wouldn't be durable enough for a 'pound or push into a piece of leather' type of punching tool.  Well, unless you are a blacksmith type of person who thinks a 4 pound hand sledge is the 'little' hammer used to tap a piece of red hot steel fresh out of the forge.  As to using a piece of that steel landscape edging, probably not.  That is just plain low-carbon steel AFAIK.  It really won't get hard no matter what you really do to it (short of trying to carburize the steel, which is yet another layer of 'complexity' to deal with).To me, a tool (cutting blade, or punching die that is cutting through something, say like leather  ) would be made of a tool steel.  Just like your X-Acto blades are made of a hard steel that has been sharpened to a nice (hopefully) cutting edge, you usually want your other cutting tools to be similarly hard and sharp.  A punch type cutting die may not be sharpened to quite the same 'razor sharp' edge as a thin slicing blade would, but it still needs to be somewhat sharp and somewhat hard (and thus strong) in order to punch through the workpiece (the piece of leather in this case) without just flopping over on itself.  Think of a piece of aluminum from a soda can.  Although it can sometimes get a sharp edge and cut some things like your skin, it is not a hard enough or strong enough piece of metal to usually use to push/punch through something like a piece of leather.  Or think of a paper cut.  That soft floppy paper is able to cut your skin.  But it is worthless as a cutting tool or punch die because it is really not hard or strong and that nice thin edge that cut your skin just flopped over on itself and is no longer a thin edge.To learn a bit more about metal and specifically steel, try Wikipedia.  (yeah, yeah, I know it's not a 'real' reference source and is not guaranteed to be absolutey accurate, but in some cases the articles are correct or close enough for getting the gist of things.)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain-carbon_steelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steelhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy_steelor more specifically for toolshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steelJust like there are different leathers, there are different steels.  And just like leathers, the steels are all "steel" but they are not exactly the same thing and do not have exactly the same uses.  Rawhide gloves or a brain-tanned deerskin mallet anyone?    To be strong enough to cut or punch through some leather, a thin piece of steel usually has to be pretty hard and thus pretty strong (they are not absolutely the same thing, but in steel they are usually pretty closely related to one another).Although it may hurt to step barefoot onto the top edge of that steel landscape edging, notice that it didn't slice right through your foot and punch through the top of the foot like a hard thin sharp piece of steel might.  Don't step barefoot onto the edge of a X-Acto or utility knife blade, they would likely slice or otherwise cut right into your foot.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:See, I told you I'd be asking dumb questions Thanks for the links.  I'll get them read over.
Reply:What are the dimensions of the dies you are thinking about.  How many ton clicker do you have?  Do you want to cut more than one layer of leather at a time?  Dies need to be very carefully made and welded by an experienced welder.  Wouldn't do to have one fail in a clicker.
Reply:What are the dimensions of the dies you are thinking about?
Reply:My friends shop has a  little asian guy that they use to make their dies for die cutting rubber sheets.  I am no expert on this but from what I saw in the shop they are steel mounted onto a piece of plywood which is goes into the pneumatic press.  From what he said the guy can make pretty much any shape you want and he is pretty cheap.I heard them on the phone talking and everything he asked the guy replied "for you, no problem!" HAHAIf you would be interested I can get the guys phone number etc.  I dont think shipping would be much.
Reply:Hi monica, you've found some helpers here for sure!You can find the "rule die steel" here;http://www.mcmaster.com/#rule-dies/=7vngp1The strip steel can be bent quite easily and worked in to a groove. As noted above it is mostly used with plywood scroll or jig sawed plywood to define the shape, (a shape is drawn and then cut from plywood, then both pieces are used to capture the steel rule).The rule needs a hard backing so you will need a small plate drilled and tapped to hold the plywood, the plywood is then removed and sawcut.Then (depending on who does it) the outside pattern is screwed to the backer and the rule die is worked in, with the inside cutout tapped/worked in last.The rule die can be scribed and bent back on itself to break and separate for length.I've never seen anyone who knew how to get the right length the first time (don't know but two living now anyway). Don't be afraid to use 2 pieces of steel to make the die rather than get one the right length.Matt
Reply:Awesome Matt.  I completely forgot to look at McMCarr.  I order hardware from them, matter of fact, I'm getting ready to draw up another order.  The spring steel there is actually pretty useful for holsters so it wouldn't go to waste of I picked some up.Coincidentally today my new die arrived from my maker.  They do beautiful work.  This design is definitely one I wouldn't dare try.  But the smaller parts I'd like to try out, like the reinforcement pieces for the different models.  Sorry about the terrible picture.  Just pulled it out of the box in the kitchen.Last edited by Monica; 09-12-2010 at 11:15 AM.