UP vs. DOWN with a stick....

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There have been a lot of post on the board lately talking about welding with a downward progression by some of the more inexperienced welders.  Most feel like they had adequate penetration which they probably didn't.  I realize different situations call for different techniques, and I am not trying to insult anyone or imply anything about there skills.  this is solely for information.  So here we go.   Same machine and same settings.  One run down hill, the other up hill.  That material is some flanges I cut off of a piece of 6" channel.  at the root they are about 1/4" thick, and I'll leave a little less than 3/32" gap.  I didn't spend alot of time on setup since I am primarily wanting to show the penetration difference between the two.  I was running a 3/32" 7018 at about 95 amps DC+ for both passes.  Here is the machine used, and the test material.Last edited by MicroZone; 07-30-2007 at 10:39 PM.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:here is the welds before and after brushings.  The one on the left is up hill, and the one on the right is downhill.Last edited by MicroZone; 07-30-2007 at 10:40 PM.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:up is bestLaura MM 180Chop SawDewalt grinderhelpful husband
Reply:He's still posting, give him a few. John -  fabricator extraordinaire, car nut!-  bleeding Miller blue! http://www.weldfabzone.com
Reply:Looking at the backs.  First pic is down hand.  No penetration The second is uphill.  Notice the difference in penetration.Third pic I put the downhill weld in the vise, and broke it with an adjustable wrench easily. notice the last pic the weld is only stuck to the front side.  Absolutely no penetration.   This is the the usual result of a downhill weld with a stick.  I did put the uphill in the vise but couldn't budge it with a wrench.  I think the pics of the backsides show all that is needed to be seen....   When it comes to penetration strength there is no down hill weld that will hold like an uphill.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Laura, you are correct.  That is pretty much what I was trying to show.  It seems that I have seen a lot of threads showing down hand welds with a stick, and the people feeling they got adequate penetration.  I just had some time today and thought I would show some of the newbies just how much difference there is in penetration according to direction of travel.  Hopefully someone will gain something from seeing this....I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Great demo.I know this stuff takes time. Thanks.
Reply:Hammack....YOU DA MAN    Here is a beerNice job.  Been saying that since I joined here.David  Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Right on.  This needs to be made into a sticky for all members to see for all time.
Reply:Downhand = Thumbs down , Uphand= Thumbs up!  (one easy way of puttin it)There is a time and place for a Down hand weld, if its a special application, or quick thing for looks, ie. mid tube on light  hand railing were you wanna save time and dont wanna sand it down after. just a quick thought on it. I prefer the look and the strength of going Up.Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:Downhill is for less penetration, like on thin material in the sheet metal range of thickness.Uphill -ALWAYS- gives better penetration than downhill.Flat gives you the best penetration, because you aren't trying to fight gravity pulling the puddle away.  But you can't always put things flat.Jackson, can you show the good folks the results with the same material/rod/settings in the flat and the overhead position?  Then you've pretty much covered them all.   Jackson's Welding penetration demo class and examples, coming soon to a store near you.   We'll let you skip the underwater one.
Reply:Yea, I"ll run a flat and an overhead in the morning with the same machine and parameters.  moonrise you are correct.  I am not saying that I never weld downhill because I do often.  Honestly, in fact that's how dad taught me to weld, by letting me help build sheet metal transitions in the cotton gin he ran.  I didn't know what a mig welder was, but I had several hundred pounds of 3/32 6013 and plenty of  14ga sheet.  Welding down was the only way I could do it.  Just trying to save some of the newbies the aggravation and mistakes that I made teaching myself all of this.....I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Good demo there!City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:WOW!!!!I can't thanks you enough for your time and effort.  You left me speechless.
Reply:Chili, your post was one of the reason I did this demo.  Hopefully it helps you understand what I was saying in your other thread.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Why is the penetration better uphill than downhill?  Is it because the heat rises and preheats the uphill (future weld sites)?  Is it because of the way the current flows?  I'm curious as to the physics and thermodynamcis behind the better uphill penetration.JeffAutoArc 120 MIGMontgomery Ward AC/DC 230r.i.p. - Miller Thunderbolt 05 Jeep Liberty Renegade
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingChili, your post was one of the reason I did this demo.  Hopefully it helps you understand what I was saying in your other thread.
Reply:Originally Posted by straight6jeffWhy is the penetration better uphill than downhill?  Is it because the heat rises and preheats the uphill (future weld sites)?  Is it because of the way the current flows?  I'm curious as to the physics and thermodynamcis behind the better uphill penetration.Jeff
Reply:Why is penetration better uphill than downhill?Not really because of heat rising or anything like that.It's because of GRAVITY.Downhill, or vertical down, welding has nothing underneath the puddle of molten metal to hold it in place.  So you have to move FAST to keep the arc in front of the puddle and to keep the puddle from getting too big and just dripping out of the joint.  Because gravity is trying to make that molten metal drip and flow down.Uphill, or vertical up, welding has a little bit of a 'ledge' formed from the weld bead that you put down a few seconds ago. So the molten metal can rest and flow and sit on the existing weld bead and not just drip out of the joint.  Just that tiny little bit of a ledge and the tiny little bit of time that the molten puddle sits on it is enough time to allow the metal to resolidify.  And that tiny little bit of extra time means you can move slower with the arc (or torch) and that means you get deeper penetration.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseFlat gives you the best penetration, because you aren't trying to fight gravity pulling the puddle away.  But you can't always put things flat.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RI don't want to start a war here, but I totally disagree.  Up is the strongest weld.  If I want something to be REALLY strong, I turn it and weld it verticle up.Shoot away   LEMMEHAVEIT!
Reply:well,i wonder why it is that all pipelines are welded down hill from start to finish?
Reply:Originally Posted by don58well,i wonder why it is that all pipelines are welded down hill from start to finish?
Reply:joint prep,rod choice and how you manipulate the rod have just as much to do with the strength of a weld as does the direction of travel.Gas lines are mostly done with a fast freeze rod (6010,7010,etc)down hill,you say what you want but that is how its done.on the other hand I can do a uphill fillet with a 7018 and whip a lot and get hardly any penetration.I started welding pipe(process)and had never seen downhill untill a rig welder hired on and was a million times faster than us on the small pipe(2").tons of production mig welds are done down.The subject is broad and to make one sweeping statement will not help anybody.
Reply:The subject is not that broad.  We aren't talking mig, we aren't talking about how pipelines are welded.  We aren't talking root prep, rod choice, differences in amperage.  You are changing the parameters of the demonstration and applying it to everything.  I clearly said different situations call for different techniques.   We were showing the direction of travel only.  an apples to apples comparison.  same rod, same heat, same joint.  Perhaps I should have been more specific with my title as I was mainly directing this towards a low hydrogen rod, which I stand by my opinion that a low hydrogen should not be run downhill.  Do it with a mig, tig or stick, and the same holds true. An upward progression will yield more penetration than an equal  run downward. Yes you can achieve penetration with a fast freeze rod running downhill, but as I was attempting to show with this demonstration you will get more given the exact same setup traveling up hill with it. That's a fact.  I'm no pipe welder, never claimed to be.  I have never been to school to learn to weld.  I learned in the field by busting my butt making mistakes and learning from them.  I learn everyday, but there are a few things I do know, and that's one of them.  You can manipulate a puddle anyway you want, but the above still stands true. Same rod same heat you will get more penetration going up than down.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......Not sure anyone is still watching this thread but since someone asked for a flat and overhead I thought i would do them today.  First is the flat.  Not quite as much penetration as the vertical up, but a good bit more than downhill.  The overhead was a touch too hot for my taste honestly.  But I did not change the amperage since I wanted all the test to be even except position.  It started "keyholing" on me and the root got wide but it filled in ok.   I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:here are the backsides.  First the overhead, then the flat.  So there is the information on all four positions.  You make your own decision....   ~JacksonLast edited by Hammack_Welding; 08-01-2007 at 09:02 PM.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingSame rod same heat you will get more penetration going up than down.
Reply:Thanks Ham..you answered so many questions with your demo.  Much appreciated!Ron
Reply:Thanks Ham, you certainly taught a newbie something, thanks
Reply:Hammack, I think you give great advice.  I welded for several years in a machine shop (about 20 years ago)...never went to welding school either.  Just a weekend welder at the house now and I appreciate you taking the time to share.  By the way, I noticed you're a fellow Georgian...where abouts?  I'm in Gwinnett County.Thanks again for the lesson.
Reply:Thanks for the compliments guys.  I'm glad to know it helped some of you guys.   You all are who I did it for.  jwilson, I am down south.  I live in Clay county about an hour and a half south of Columbus.  I have a sister up that way in Marietta, and my mom, and a brother over in Carrollton.  So I am up that way quite often.  There are a few Georgia guys on here.  "Washman" is another one right off the top of my head.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I use to hunt down in Quitman County kinda down that way.  Sounds like you have family spread throughout Georgia...must be nice having your family in the same state.  Mine are spread in several states.I work as a Production Manager, manufacturing digital hearing aids (no welding, just soldering electrical components...sorry guys) in Norcross just off the 85.  If you're ever up this way, feel free to stop in (770 921-3711 ext. 6604).  Any other Georgia welders on the site are welcome too...be nice to network with other welders.  Thanks again for the welding lesson.Jeff
Reply:I have a question on vertical welding.  Once I get a bit more practice (Old school Hobart Brothers 180A stick for 20 bucks) I will be patching parts of the frame in my 4Runner.  Now from the pics I've seen it does appear that uphill penetrates deeper but what angle do I push the rod in at?  Is it like and uphill drag or am I going to be going up hill and pushing the electrode into it?  Here is a little of my plan derived from research, common sense, and wonder.  I am going to use a piece of my old landcruiser frame (pretty much same dimensions) and the frames are the same thickness.  I am going to fishmouth both the left and the right side of the plate as I've read that if you patch in pieces and the sides are welded vertically, it will just break again because you haven't spread out the stress area.  Please correct me if Im wrong, even if it requires making fun of me.  I don't want to do this wrong.  Also what rod would work best for this?  6011 because it penetrates so well (I've read, I've still yet to get any REAL time on welder aside from the test run due to not being able to find a NEMA plug with that stupid DRYER L
Reply:When I weld up, I was taught to weld with the rod pointing up 20 to 30 degrees.  When I was working on the test, I was told point it almost straight in.  SO if that is what passes the test, that is what I do all the time. Maybe 5* pointed up.  You are correct about the ends of the frame. cut them at least at a 45* angle or cut em square and don't weld there at all.  Same for the flanges, don't weld 90* across them.  Make welds parallel to the frame.  You can drill holes or slots in the other piece of frame and plug weld them.  Everybody has an opinion on this one.  I think your fish mouth thing is a good idea too if I understand it   Like this   ?There was a good thread about cutting frames, but I don't remember the name of it or what section it was in.As for rod,  I would use 3/32 7018.  6011 does not have the flex ability.  If you have extra frame, practice away with nice clean stuff.All my own opinion. DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:buggyboy, when welding uphill you will point your rod slightly upward as if you are pushing it uphill.  Cut your plates, and taper the ends to a point this will keep the frame from breaking up the corners like it would on a squared off plate.   keep in mind that alot of vehicle frames are not as think as most people think.  On any frame repair I run only a 7018.jwilson, I'll be sure to get up with you next time I am up that way.  I may be up there in the next few days.  My Brother in law called this afternoon, and said he has someone who has some work up there and wanted me to come do it if I could.  I'll have to call him in the morning and find out the details.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Your first pass when going up is usually a stringer you sink into the center of your joint. Buggyboy_2006 what you have to do is kind of an upside down T, start a little puddle move it up a little, bring it down and manipulate the rod so the puddle fuses to each side then quickly whip it up and back down and bridge it across again. you can also just whip the puddle up and pause until you've welded the full length of the joint, walk that puddle along. When I get settled back down south I will have access to a digital camera and I plan on doing some demonstrations of my own cause I sure do enjoy ones like Hammick_welding, David R, Zap and the rest of the group who make welding web what it is.Nothing Ever Got Done By Quitting, Never Give Up.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RWhen I weld up, I was taught to weld with the rod pointing up 20 to 30 degrees.  When I was working on the test, I was told point it almost straight in.  SO if that is what passes the test, that is what I do all the time. Maybe 5* pointed up.  You are correct about the ends of the frame. cut them at least at a 45* angle or cut em square and don't weld there at all.  Same for the flanges, don't weld 90* across them.  Make welds parallel to the frame.  You can drill holes or slots in the other piece of frame and plug weld them.  Everybody has an opinion on this one.  I think your fish mouth thing is a good idea too if I understand it   Like this   ?There was a good thread about cutting frames, but I don't remember the name of it or what section it was in.As for rod,  I would use 3/32 7018.  6011 does not have the flex ability.  If you have extra frame, practice away with nice clean stuff.All my own opinion. David
Reply:Every day you own a new to you welder and don't use its a sin!David Go to an electrical store.  Change the outlet.  DO SOMETHING!  Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:buggyboy,Check http://www.frentzandsons.com/Hardwar...nfiguratio.htm for some pics of plugs and receptacles.  That page just happens to have some pics and short descriptions about the plugs/receptacles, there are hundreds of other sites to get the same or similar info.  Find the right NEMA 'code' for what you want and then go out and buy the plug you need.  The big-box stores -usually- have the common ones, if not just go to an electrical supply store.If you just need a 'shorty'-adapter, get a replacement dryer plug-n-cord and the correct receptacle for your welder (most likely a NEMA 6-50R).  Assemble, plug in welder to cord and cord into dryer outlet, and weld.Oh, and points, sharp corners, and such are going to be "stress concentration areas".  Smooth transitions and curves are better than sharp corners for your fishplate repair.Do this -------(..........) -------instead of this----------|............|----------If you do this     , radius the corners and the point at the end.  If you are cutting out and replacing a section of frame, do this  \-----------\ and then fishplate on top of the seams.Last edited by MoonRise; 08-03-2007 at 12:31 PM.
Reply:Ok, I have to put my $.02 in....  7018 was completely the wrong rod to use for a downhill demo.  If you want a valid downhill demo, then use something that is rated to be used in the vert down position.  If you really know how to weld downhill, and you use the proper rods, tubular wire, or solid wire, then you will get good results.  With 7018, the slag is so liquid, that you have to run the bead really fast to keep ahead of the slag.  That is why you won't get good penetration.  For pipeline welding, they are using specially rated (designed) wire or rod that, with a bit of skill and knowwledge, makes for a good solid downhill weld.
Reply:OK, so I am a little  thick.  I took welding in college and was taught a downhill weld is a "wash" by a 65 year old instructor.  My dad told me pretty much the same thing.  I learned how to weld up.  TIG or MIG, there is no slag to get in the way, so it does work better.  I understand 6013 is great for downhill on sheet metal.  The book sez 60* angle of the plates.   The book (Lincoln procedure handbook of arc welding) sez anything under 1/4" with MIG is down hill.  They are concerned with speed and selling amps.  When I weld up with .045 wire and Co2, I can see the wire go into the plate until the arc disappears.  I have to pause (wait) until the hole is filled before moving on so I don't get any undercutting.  Can't do that down hill.My .02DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Weldrwomn, this wasn't a "downhill demo"  It was a demo on the penetration difference between uphill and downhill.  The reason a 7018 was used was in response to a few threads where newbs questioned about downhill welding with a 7018.  If you go back and read the entire thread you will see that I stated that in the correct situation you can get a sound weld running down hill.  Yes, I can weld downhill just as I can uphill, but if I go back and do the entire demo again with a 6010/6011 but the results will be the same I believe.  Uphill will yield more penetration than down.   I was not trying to make a biblical sized statement to never weld downhill.  Perhaps I should have been more specific with the name of this thread, and why I was doing it, as I feel it starting to be interpreted in a way it was not intended.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:I have done both ways also..There's a thread about it around here somewhere..Uphill is good..Hammick's demo was just a demo of "this happens".....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by Hammack_WeldingWeldrwomn, this wasn't a "downhill demo"  It was a demo on the penetration difference between uphill and downhill.  The reason a 7018 was used was in response to a few threads where newbs questioned about downhill welding with a 7018.  If you go back and read the entire thread you will see that I stated that in the correct situation you can get a sound weld running down hill.  Yes, I can weld downhill just as I can uphill, but if I go back and do the entire demo again with a 6010/6011 but the results will be the same I believe.  Uphill will yield more penetration than down.   I was not trying to make a biblical sized statement to never weld downhill.  Perhaps I should have been more specific with the name of this thread, and why I was doing it, as I feel it starting to be interpreted in a way it was not intended.
Reply:no need to apologoze, you are correct in what you said, just a misunderstanding.  I have seen your post, and respect your talent and abilities.  As i said I probably should have been a bit more specific in my title.   But no worries. ~JacksonI'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by weldrwomn  I get riled up when ppl use wire and rod for things that they aren't meant to do.
Reply:Originally Posted by buggyboy_2006 I just need to find my dang plug with the infamous dryer "L" that Home depot and Lowes seem to have no concept of around here.