how to rust metal...seriously.

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I been contracted to steel clad a wood stair case. The property is a 104 yr old factory converted into high end condos. The client had a stair case built using old rough sawed oak and wants metal acents added. I gave him several samples of metals, new and aged......Any way, I need to age 3/8'x4" carbon flat bar to a nice severe rusted patina in a short time. Are there any chemicals that may help me acheive this?ThanksWesleyMiller TrailBlazer 251Miller HF-250-1Miller MaxStar 150 STLHyperTherm PowerMax 380 plasmaLincoln PowerMig 180Millermatic 252Miller Diversion 180
Reply:Salt water or acid. I can't remember what I used, I think it was swimming pool acid.
Reply:As a serious question, are you after a browning process similar to classic firearms? You can buy all the stuff needed from www.brownells.com if so (They're a gunsmithing site)
Reply:I have an uncle who does decorative and structural welded landscape in steel. To rust it quickly he uses clorox bleach, he says nothing rusts it faster.
Reply:Vinegar (acetic acid) is what a lot of metal art people use to accelerate the rust.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldVinegar (acetic acid) is what a lot of metal art people use to accelerate the rust.
Reply:may not be the quickest way but it puts out a nice color, lemon juice...... "...My pappy was a pistol I'm a son of a gun...""...God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy..."
Reply:use kcl (potassium chloride) it is salt that is used in the oil field for frack jobs trust i use it on a daily bases and it will chew threw metal (get it rusty over night)
Reply:Cool! Thanks for all the good info.I'm gonna mix bleach, pool shock, lemon juice and vinager and then spray it with OFF. If you see a strange glow in the sky over NC, you know what happened. I gave the client several metal samples. the one she liked the most was a piece of 16 gage carbon sheet. I brushed one side to clean. The other side was victim of being a heat drop over concrete, a shield while spray painting, slage catcher, covered in various oil stains and a nice redish surface rust. Guess which side she liked. HA!Thanks guysLast edited by wagin; 07-14-2010 at 02:45 AM.Reason: psMiller TrailBlazer 251Miller HF-250-1Miller MaxStar 150 STLHyperTherm PowerMax 380 plasmaLincoln PowerMig 180Millermatic 252Miller Diversion 180
Reply:Originally Posted by FormulaXFDAs a serious question, are you after a browning process similar to classic firearms? You can buy all the stuff needed from www.brownells.com if so (They're a gunsmithing site)
Reply:Originally Posted by waginCool! Thanks for all the good info.I'm gonna mix bleach, pool shock, lemon juice and vinager and then spray it with OFF. If you see a strange glow in the sky over NC, you know what happened. I gave the client several metal samples. the one she liked the most was a piece of 16 gage carbon sheet. I brushed one side to clean. The other side was victim of being a heat drop over concrete, a shield while spray painting, slage catcher, covered in various oil stains and a nice redish surface rust. Guess which side she liked. HA!Thanks guys
Reply:Be careful when you start making chemical cocktails, for example mixing bleach and ammonia is a good way to die - it releases chlorine gas, colorless, odorless (esp. compared to ammonia) and very deadly.I would stick with the vinegar - very cheap and effective for the quantity of metal you are dealing with.Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:faux finish it. I have successfully done it.  There are kits, however I did it with a combination of paints.
Reply:muriatic acid, (pool acid) will clean the metal and strip off the mill scale, but then it will rust immediatly afterwards. it will be a nice even rust that wont match an old, time rusted piece. but , then you could try the salt along with letting it sit for a while..BTS Welding
Reply:Originally Posted by ggarnerJust mix pool acid and water in a 1:10 ratio or 1:15 ratio and spray it and let it sit over night.
Reply:Originally Posted by gwileyBe careful when you start making chemical cocktails, for example mixing bleach and ammonia is a good way to die - it releases chlorine gas, colorless, odorless (esp. compared to ammonia) and very deadly.I would stick with the vinegar - very cheap and effective for the quantity of metal you are dealing with.
Reply:cut your pieces to size.  heat with torch and quench in toilet bowl cleaner the longer it stays in the toilet bowl cleaner the more brown it will become.
Reply:+1 on NEVER-NEVER-NEVER mix other chemicals with chlorine bleach.    btw, chlorine gas is a pale yellow-green and has a very distinctive smell of ...  chlorine.  The OSHA exposure limit is 0.5 ppm (8 hr time weighted average), about 3.5 ppm is usually detectable by its odor, 30 ppm usually causes coughing, 60 ppm usually causes lung damage, and 1000 ppm of chlorine gas is usually FATAL within a few breaths.  The fatal action of chlorine gas on mammals is typically via the chlorine gas entering the lungs, where it reacts with the moisture from the mucosa and the moisture within the cells themselves forming acids that destroy the cells.Mixing household bleach and household ammonia typically liberates chlorine gas.  The gas is liberated almost instantly and since the victim is usually standing or leaning right over where the mixing is occurring, lung injuries or fatalities occur.Back to the original question by wagin/Wes.Mild acid solutions applied to the steel will usually rust plain steel pretty quickly.  So will a plain moist salt (table salt, or potassium chloride, or calcium chloride) solution or just the salt crystals sprinkled on the steel .For a non-uniform finish, you may have to do a multi-step process such as getting a mild overall surface rust via the acid solution applied everywhere and then getting deeper rust spots/areas with localized treatments with more mild acid drips/splotches or salt drips/splotches.Just remember that the rust will continue to grow/deepen if any of the chemicals are left in place and also just from atmospheric moisture, so rinse well and then seal well with a clear finish of your choice.Also remember that rusted steel is NOT a good structural element, so use your rusty pieces just as decorative trim.As mentioned, another option is the faux finish.  Heat tint can get some interesting colors if applied in a non-uniform way, but usually no red rust that way.For a really mottled finish, you may have to do a multi-step multi-method process.  Sort of what happened with your sample piece.  Getting 'fancy', you could do a multi-step 'dip' rusting with some "resists" splattered around at different stages. Plain melted wax can usually act as a resist for that.  Melt some wax (drippy candle could work), drip/splatter onto the steel, do some acid rusting, heat steel or just scrape off the wax, reapply drips/splatters, repeat rusting stage, lather-rinse-repeat until desired results are obtained.Ferric chloride (printed circuit board etchant solution) can also be used to stain steel, besides its use in PCB etching.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by madkaw284Chlorine gas is not odorless
Reply:I just did this last weekend on some new 1/4"x12"x8'-0" steel bar. I used a diluted solution of muriatic acid.I sprayed it on and let it sit for 30 minutes, then flushed with water. My intent was to remove the mill scale. It worked well. After I welded the assembly, I sand blasted to remove the rust prior to priming. Just be aware of the fumes produced and don't breath them.
Reply:Exactly why i brought this up in my original post.  People die every year from mistakenly mixing chemicals and getting something nasty that can end their life.  I got my Ph.D. in organic chemistry and while I was in grad school you would not believe the stupid things that I saw people do who supposedly had a good understanding of chemistry.  One guy lost an eye because he didnt know what he was doing.Here is a short list of things not to do:Mix chlorine bleach with ammonia (it will for chlorine gas, which has a yellow color and is heavier than air, this is commonly done while cleaning a toilet... the person gets a strong wiff... the Cl2 turns to HCl acid in the lungs which causes an intense burning sensation... the person falls to the floor where the concentration of chlorine gas is even higher since it is more dense than air... and you know what happens from there.  This was used in WWI to kill entrenched troops.Clean copper pipe with nitric acid: Nitric acid is a commonly available acid which has many good uses but cleaning oxidation from copper pipe is not one of them.  It will form NO (nitric oxide) which is toxic in 5ppm concentration. NO reacts with O2 in the air to made NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) which is even more lethal.  It anesthetizes the nose so you can no longer smell it and the effects take hours to show in the body.Welding on metal that has been cleaned with brake cleaner.  The high heat can cause the remaining cleaner to form phosgene gas which is incredibly lethal or have long term devastating effects on organs in the body.
Reply:THE WORKS cleaner works well.
Reply:Originally Posted by ggarner ...Welding on metal that has been cleaned with brake cleaner.  The high heat can cause the remaining cleaner to form phosgene gas which is incredibly lethal or have long term devastating effects on organs in the body.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseHazardous - Yes.But the hazard details are just slightly different than what you said.  Flammable cleaners/solvents (of which pretty much every common brake cleaner that I know of IS flammable) and hot metal (or hot anything) can cause a fire.  That is bad.  Chlorinated brake cleaners (of which the stuff on the shelves, at least here by me is pretty much all shifting to the non-chlorinated variety) in the presence of the UV from various forms of arc welding (SMAW, GMAW, FCAW, GTAW, and I guess SAW too) can undergo chemical reaction(s) that can form phosgene.  Real problem, real danger, but different cause than what you stated.Phosgene is listed as decomposing 'back' into CO and Cl2 above 200 deg C.  So heat from welding would cause the COCl2 (phosgene) to decompose.Be careful.  Safety first.
Reply:Muriatic acid,1 part acid to nine parts water (yes water first) I installed stainless steel railings outside of a new const. bank and the shop got a call saying the stainless was rusting. we installed this same railing everywhere and this never happened before. So we went there to see for ourselves and someone let it slip that the bricklayers sprayed the brick with acid and soaked the railing. So if it makes stainless rust steel should be no problem.The finish you want can be attained with Gilder's Paste. Google gilders paste and check it out as there is lots of pictures. There is no end to the finishes you can get with all the different colors and textures of gilders paste.The interior decorator wanted hand oiled bronze finish on this table, so she got hand oiled bronze finish. Attached Images
Reply:So to seal it would a person coat it with any clear coat, or is there a certain one that will work the best? I only ask because of coating rust has always been told to me that it wouldn't last long.Nothing is fool-proof, to the substantially talented fool!Help me, I can't drink all of this beer myself.
Reply:Had to rust some iron crosses I was giving to friends. I already had used some of the acids mentioned above, as well as the dish washing soap. Acids worked fast but not something I like handling. Someone suggested mustard, brushed some on and left outside. Worked good. In a couple days there was nice red rust covering. Dipped it in oil and had a dark redish brown finish. These were for landscape outside.Peter
Reply:might try some good old DOT3 brake fluid. It won't evaporate, it will just hold moisture against the steel, then it rinses off with water and won't wreck your driveway. The drawback is it will take time. Couple weeks  mebbe.
Reply:Originally Posted by burnandreturncut your pieces to size.  heat with torch and quench in toilet bowl cleaner the longer it stays in the toilet bowl cleaner the more brown it will become.
Reply:I haven't read the whole thread, and you may not even need the info anymore, but salt or acid will rust the metal ... but unless you degrease it first, you will get spotty/blotchy results, because acid cannot eat through grease/oil ... you need a base to do that (a base is the opposite of an acid).So ... first you need to de-grease the metal. I would use Red Devil lye or oven cleaner ... both contain sodium hydroxide, a powerful base which will eat through the grease/wax/oil (do NOT use lye on aluminum!) ... let it soak in good, then rinse real well with fresh water. (You could also use ammonia, but it is not as powerful as lye.) Then, without touching the steel with your hands, apply the acid or saltwater or whatever and it should rust up pretty well overnight.
Reply:I've being rusting,( or "patina", as I say to my customers, ha ha), a lot of my work for years.I use straight Muriatic Acid. Apply with a cloth not a spray bottle. The mist will float too much. Burning skin is not nice. Wear acid proof gloves, goggles and a respirator. Do it on a non- windy day and out side your shop. Leave it for 1-3 hours. Rinse with lots of water. I rinse over a container and when done, use baking soda to neutralize the acid further, then pour out. Let dry and repeat rinse for more rust. I like to speed up the rusting and drying by hanging the piece and heating it with a tiger torch. The rust comes up faster and drys out the surface moisture in the metal which is better for me as I powder coat a lot of my work. I've tried every thing from salt water to oven cleaner to vinegar. Nothing works as good and fast as straight Muriatic acid. It is what they us to balance the pH in pools, just cheaper when you by it with out the fancy pool packaging.If you want a blotchy look, grind away random spots of the mill scale. The shiny spots will rust up differently than the darker mill scale areas. Can be a really nice effect. Good luck.200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:Use Copper Sulfate(Cuplic). This used in most fab shops that perform alloy overlay onto carbon steel plate, pipe etc. When a weld repair is to be made and the stainless steel overlay must be removed you must test that area with a mixture of Copper Sulfate mixed with water and applied to that area. The area where all the stainless steel has been removed will turn to rust before you eyes and the stainless steel will remain the same color.
Reply:Use Copper Sulfate(Cuplic). This used in most fab shops that perform alloy overlay onto carbon steel plate, pipe etc. When a weld repair is to be made and the stainless steel overlay must be removed you must test that area with a mixture of Copper Sulfate mixed with water and applied to that area. The area where all the stainless steel has been removed will turn to rust before you eyes and the stainless steel will remain the same color.Make sure to wear rubber gloves as this chemical is poision. Same chemical they used to use a root killer in septic lines.