welding cast aluminium - payment?

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So I just did my first paid weld *dances about*Repaired a heatsink in cast aluminium for a motorcross bike, where it had split in two and one of the little "blades" was lose as well, spent 40 minutes actually welding and used a total of.. 1½ hours, cleaning the metal and fixing edges etc.The guy gave me 140 SEK which seems to be 18.59 USD, wasn't expecting any payment so I was all over the place but my dad scolded me for not taking AT LEAST the double, or even 500 SEK/66.41 USD. To me that seemed quite a lot but he kept pointing out that there's not many welding cast aluminium and with the time spent & the fact that it was quite a nasty piece to weld should have earned me more. So, to my question; he gave me a couple of hints of having more work that needed to be done, but I have NO clue what so ever to what I actually should be charging him, would any of you have any ideas? Or well, what would you charge? (Yes, I'm aware of the fact that it might differ considering I'm most likely on a totally different continent but still)Wish I had been able to take pictures of it but he was quite fast at snatching it away and getting out of there as his son (which owned the bike) was waiting and desperatedly wanted it back.  oh well!... I got paaaid! *dances some more*
Reply:Nice job Sara.Pay rate depends on a lot of things. If this is still just a hobby for you and you can confidently repair items for people and charge a few bucks to cover costs and make a few for profit then what you got paid sounds about right.If you are running a legitimate business with permits, insurance, taxes, etc....then you would have to figure out what hourly rate would make you profitable beyond your overhead costs so that you can afford to live. Obviously there are usually "industry standards" as far as hourly rates so if comparable shops are charging $65USD/hr and your overhead is causing you to charge $80USD/hr, you might not get that much business. Keeping overhead low is key to making money in a business.Take things slow and as you get known for being "one of the few" that can weld in the area, more people will begin showing up. Don't sell yourself short and charge too little...that will only end up costing you in the long run. Try to figure out a rate at which you can attract customers/clients and cover your overhead and maybe add a few bucks for profit. Be clear when someone shows up that you charge $XX amount for repair work before you begin. Maybe a minimum charge of $20USD for any repair would be a good place to start and you can go from there.http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Thank you, I really enjoyed doing it!First time welding cast aluminium has worked out that well for me, so was pretty happy about the result! And that's a great idea, can't wait until they need more stuff welded, had such a blast today welding something other than the regular exercises we have to do, really enjoyed it. I do hope he'll throw my name around out there!
Reply:Sara,  good work, I imagine more work will find you soon.There are some 'market value' ideas to use in your planning for future work.If someone else cleans up the metal: there's a value to their time.If someone else sets up the edges, files, sands, bevels; there's a value for their time.If someone else clamps positions and prepares the weld; there's a value for their time.On and on, for every step of the required work, anyone who needs work done without the means to do those tasks themselves must agree to the costs of the tradesman/woman that can do those tasks for them.All  your time and effort has some value and if the person requesting the work won't agree to that value, then it will be best if you allow them to find someone else to donate to their 'charity'.  To encourage work to come your way so you increase your experience, find the value of the local services and start at the bottom or lowest rates for the services you're offering.  As you progress, and your skills and expertise accumulate gradually increase your rates.  Most new 'businesses' undercharge and have a difficult time meeting expenses. I'd see what other firms charge per hour in your area, and understand what is available; then offer services for the lowest rates, that must be fair to the client and you'll be charging what the market considers reasonable.First rule of bidding work for new trades people is to take the first estimate and triple the amount of hours, estimate that- as a NOT TO EXCEED figure. When and if the customer agrees (?) then you do the work and charge for the actual time spent.  In most cases you'll be below the triple hours estimate but above your original ideas.Last; even if you'll loose money because the work will take too long compared to your estimates- never, ever, not once, don't even think about it- compromise your work quality to get the job done faster.  Those circumstances always, always, always, come back to haunt you- I'm old and I know this is a fact.best of fortune with your services,Cheers,Kevin Morin
Reply:i am guessing that you are working out of your garage, or something of the like. i weld professionally (or so my boss claims, i am still learning a lot) but when i do stuff at home i take every penny i make and invest it in tools. whether they are tools for home or work, it is easier to do a better job with the right tool rather than making do with what you have. my 2 centsDynasty 200DXPassport plus w/ spoolmate 100victor 315c oxy/(act and prop)Miller digital elitemilwaukee power tools
Reply:Kevin, I would check around and see what those around me charge but I find myself being the only one that "actively" weld aluminium here, or at least being open about doing so. (Otherwise I'd probably try to get a job at their place :P)When it comes to the quality of my welds, well, it's something I'm very serious about. I will always give the weld a try, as long as the person owning the workpiece is aware of that it might not be usable afterwards, but I will make it extremely clear to the person if I do not feel that the weld is good enough to my standards. I'm a perfectionist when it comes to what I create, be it a drawing or a weld, and I will always put down everything I can to it, unless I allow myself to goof around at first(!)But yes, that's another good idea, I'll check around a little and see what those around me charge for a .. well, general weld, and see what I do from there, cheers! Turk, I was actually doing some exercises in school when he came there and asked if I could fix it, so at the point I have access to several machines and tools. Going to be horrid when I'm done, to stand there with nothing at all is nothing I even want to imagine :P(On a random note) I've got my eyes on this screwdriver-set, which I've been longing for since.. well, a year or so the least. Not sure why but I am going to get it, just hope I'll find a good use for it when I actually do, hah.Thank you for the replies guys!
Reply:Sara,if there aren't welding services in your area, surely they exist in a larger city/town somewhere that you can reach by phone or internet.  That may be the 'market' in your town.  Therefore, you can charge a premium for your local work because of the value/cost to travel to the service location.As an example, if the weld on the heat/cooling shroud was worth 10 dollars (arbitrary number) but the owner would have needed to travel for an hour to the nearest welding service and and hour back, then paying you the same rate of the distant welders' services is a bargain.  You'd be free to charge more, up to the amount that a normal person is willing to 'pay' themselves to drive two hours to obtain the services.I didn't express my thoughts about work quality very well.  Many customers have work that they consider to be 'life or death' -an immediately needed weld or instant attention to their work.  When they arrive that person tends to expect you to stop work on your priorities and assume theirs; they in a hurry and you should join them in their thinking. What happens then is they try to convey their rush to you, and younger people tend to make the error of being influenced by their clients' sense of urgency.  I have had this experience and I will wager that all the other experienced independent welders here have to; sometime in the past.  What I was encouraging  you to consider BEFORE it happens, is that you keep your focus and not be hurried by the demanding client.  These may be the most reasonable people in other circumstances but have become extremely focused on their own broken part or welding requirements.  They tend to want to stay in the shop- refuse; the tend to demand a completion time- don't give one say you will call them; they tend to urge you to reorder your work and life to conform to their needs- refuse to do this.If you decide to give priority to one person's work- out of the sequence you receive into the shop tell them it will cost a 15 or 20% premium over the base costs to do 'rush' jobs.  Estimate 3 times the hours, and the premium and calm them down. Take the work do it well, as it seems you are a conscientious person, in good time. I was trying to encourage you not to be rushed by those who rush into your life and ask you to hurry for them.  Their accidental breakage or lack of planning is not a crisis for you to resolve; unless they want to pay a premium and be patient with your schedule.I thought I needed to follow my customers' wishes when I began my welding business.  If one hurried in and said -just throw a weld on this and I'll get back to fishing, I would.  If another cracked part of their boat by slamming it onto a rock or the beach full of fish, I'd repair it as quickly as possible.  Then a repair came back cracked next to my weld- showing the structural piece was too light- but I'd welded on it and the fisherman asserted it was my weld that failed.  I pointed out the two welds that were cracked weren't mine, that mine held and the boat's rib had failed next to the weld not in the weld.  The fisherman asked for a free and instant repair.  what do you do?   If I'd kept my own rules to begin -I'd have clearly seen the damage wasn't going to be repaired by a weld- it required a new part to handle the load.  I ended up being the 'bad guy' or the one in error- all for trying to 'help' someone in my inexperienced thinking.  Best to make your policies and try to keep with them.I didn't mean to imply you might not do a good job if you were left to determine the quality.  I was alluding to the tendency of the client to push or verbally urge haste - and priority of work scheduling.cheers,Kevin MorinLast edited by Kevin Morin; 08-15-2010 at 01:37 PM.Reason: spelling
Reply:Congratulations.
Reply:A person that I know, went to trade school for two years to learn how to weld.He picked up some crappy job's - employers after he graduated to pay his loans back that he had to take out to get his education.The instructor liked him so much, he gave him a job as a instructor and in two years he was the head instructor at that institution.After 5 years of fighting with the management - not getting the money allocated for his shop - from the money that they collected in tuition, he quit and went to work for himself.His prime rate was $65 a hour and a half hour minimum.There is a reason for that, his opinion was that every time someone came along and wanted some little thing welded, as you welded, they found more things for you to weld and what started out as a $10 job turned into a all day affair.By charging a $35 minimum, it kept the dead beats away.!He started out with a Bobcat welder and quickly sold it as it became too costly to run with the price of fuel and everything.About 10 years ago, a local high school vo tech gave him a job as a instructor.They pay good money and it doesn't matter if the kids learns something or not.Now his head is all swelled up and he thinks that he hit the big time.He claims that the kids that graduates from his program can pass their certs for most all weld tests on the first try.The problem there is - that they do not get the hours of experience that they would in a class room setting like at Tri Angle Tech where they go to school for 7 hours a day.I once gave him a couple of hundred pounds of sheet stainless steel - for his students to practice on.  One day I called him and asked him if I could use him as a reference for a job and he said NO!I've known him since he was 12 years old and he dated my cousin for about 25 years.Some people - just because they know how to strike an arc - thinks that they are professional welders.If all you have is a rudimentary education in welding and some shop equipment - I wouldn't get all excited and think that you hit the big time also.Just think of it like this, you are getting to practice welding and are getting paid a couple of dollars for doing it.The instructor person that I was talking about - practiced in his brothers garage, while his brother was at work, and one month his electric bill was $500 and the professional welder person thought that his brother should absorb the expense of the electric because his brother was working and he was not.Sooner or later, you will have to put some money back into your equipment and if you are like the guy that I am talking about, when it happens, your stuff will be for sale too.Or your welder will sit there with empty tanks and no money to buy a new bottle of gas.All I am saying is that it is not 100% profit.
Reply:$18 to do a cast aluminum repair?  You gotta be kidding.  I won't even flip the switch on the machine for less than $25, regardless of how simple the job is.  If somebody's that cheap, they can take their junk somewhere else.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Kevin, nono,  never thought you did, just wished to point out that quality is quite important to me and *hopefully* won't have to end up in the situation where I start stressing too much :P Still it's a good reminder, would be nice with a little sign to point it out somewhere, just so that one reads it every day *ponders*FB - Thank you! Boogey - Wow, that story just baffles me, I really hope I'll never end up like that. Thanks for the warning, I do what I can to be humble but heh, praise easily goes to ones head I suppose. Though, considering how he treated his brother I have a feeling he had a little more problems than "just" getting overconfident,  I know for sure that my sister would smack me silly if I did something the like! Treating anyone, specially family, like that is just.. Well that's one of the parts that baffles me.One of the reasons to why I'm thinking about payment is because I've "finished" the TIG-part of my education and has moved on to MAG, meaning that whenever I help someone out (with the TIG as I'm not good enough at MAG-welding yet) I'm putting my own education on hold. Not saying that I do not need the exercise, for I do, but none the less I'm giving them precious time. Sure I could just not do it but being a student I'm already pretty low on cash and thus not in the situation where I can say no to these kind of jobs.DesertRider - Heh yeah, my teachers told me as much :P Boy did those 18 bucks make me happy though! Been thinking about putting the limits at $23 for aluminium/SS and $18 for regular steel, I think that should be enough to make it worth my time, and low enough considering my inexperience/the chance of not getting it welded as properly as it probably could be. Would that be a decent price with all things kept in mind?
Reply:Are you using your own equipment and consumables?Sorry if i missed that info on another post.
Reply:LarryO, uhm no, I think I missed to include that, it all belongs to my school :PMachines, gas, tools, filler rods.. Eeeeverything. Suppose they should have at least 50% minimum but when it comes to helping someone from the community out it's on the school, even though more or less all of the students take a fee for the work. I hate the place, it's too small for my liking, but you'd never come across such a deal at a bigger city so I'm happy anyway! :P
Reply:Thats OK for the time being, but you sure will need to revise your prices when you start to use your own stuff.Good luck in the future.
Reply:Here is a good story.I have a race car.One day I needed a oil pan built for my racecar.I had a oil pan with the traps in it and I cut the part out that I needed and I fitted it up so all it needed was welded.I gave it to my brother to take to work to mig weld together.  I figured that since he already has a machine set up to do the work all he had to do was squeeze the trigger.He gets it in his head to tig weld the whole thing.  It takes him about 3 hours to do a good job.You can buy a brand new pan for $100Usually they leak and are not made of the best materials - but they will work.So then I use this pan once and put it aside.A friend comes along and needs a oil pan.  How much do you charge him?So I sell it for $40He uses it one night and the motor blows up.Was it because I sold him a bad oil pan or was it because there was debris in the pan or was it because he was a idiot and tried to get 9500 rpm's out of a street stock motor?How much is your time worth?   At a $25 minimum - I just lost $35 + materials, his time, + the oil pan that I used to make the race pan + a couple of hours of my time - that it took me to cut everything out and fit it up before my brother welded it...At some point, the cost gets to be more then the value.   Welding is great if you have the time and you are patient enough to do the job right the first time.  But in a production shop - where time is money, it is cheaper to throw it away and buy a new one then to make your own and try to save a couple of dollars.With a professional welder making $25 a hour and doing it after hours, hence time and one half - he could have worked 3 hours and gave me the $100 and still been ahead.