Question about Output Range

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Hey everyone,New to welding and I'm trying to do my own "homework." However, I still can't get a good explanation on this.- Output Range....I'm researching a MM211 and I see that it has a range of 30-210 amps. What exactly does that mean? I can wrap my head around Rated Output which in this case is 150amps of current and a maximum of 23.5v.But I don't quite understand the Output Range numbers. Can someone clarify for me? I'd appreciate it.Thx,Chopper.
Reply:I will try to answer.   The output range refers to the minimum and maximum current output.   The Rated output is at 30% duty cycle, meaning that you can only weld 3 minutes out of ten minutes, at 150 amps.   The welder will put out as much as 210 amps, but at a lower duty cycle, maybe 1 or 2 minutes out of ten minutes.   So if you were doing a lot of welding on 1/4 steel plate you would spend a lot of time waiting around for the welder to cool.I am a bit hazy on the minimum current, as the current is mostly controlled by the wire speed and to a lesser degree by the voltage.  If you turn down the wire speed you would probably get a flash, then nothing, then another flash, rather than a continuous weld.   Minimum current has more meaning in the context of a TIG or stick welder, which refers to how low you can set the current on the welder.  But you don't set the current directly on a Mig welder, which is constant voltage, not constant current.  I hope that somebody has a better answer on the minimum current.RichardSculptures in copper and other metalshttp://www.fergusonsculpture.comSyncrowave 200 Millermatic 211Readywelder spoolgunHypertherm 600 plasma cutterThermal Arc GMS300 Victor OA torchHomemade Blacksmith propane forge
Reply:That welder has the capability of welding at an output as low as 30 amps and as high as 210 amps. It will weld longer on the lower power settings (you'll see a duty cycle chart in the manual). I'm going to guess that welder is rated at 100% duty cycle at 80-90 amps of output. That means you can weld without overheating the unit at that power setting. It's likely rated at around 30% duty cycle at 150 amps. That means you can weld for 3 minutes and let it cool for 7 minutes (based on a 10 minute cycle). At 210 amps, you might be down to 10% duty cycle, that means you can weld 1 minute and let it cool for 9 minutes.It can join steel from about 22 gauge on the low end to 3/8" on the high end (210 amps). It ultimately has to do with how much power you have available. Your wire speed controls the current output. It takes more power to melt wire faster. Turning up the wire speed will draw more current from the welder (though you might not have a specific number that you can see), turning it down will draw less current (also thinner wire like .023 will take less current to melt than a thicker wire like .030 or .035 at the same wire speed).If you think of it as a truck with a 400 hp engine, you don't always use all 400 hp (going to the store?) but if you need full power, it's there. A 200 hp engine will never do the things a 400 hp engine can do (pulling a heavy trailer with a truck?). This is the arguement for buying the 230v welders instead of the 110v machines. You might not always use all the power, but it's nice to have it when you run into thicker steel that you need to weld.I'm sure someone might explain it better than I have, but I hope that helps.Last edited by trackbird; 08-20-2010 at 01:10 PM.KevinHobart Handler 210Tweco Fabricator 181iLincoln Squarewave Tig 175
Reply:I guess what's confusing for me is that the Rated Output (230v) is 150A.But the Output Range (230v) is 30-210A. How can the Output Range be higher than the Rated Output?Is it because the Rated Output is the recommended maximum for constant output? And perhaps the Range is simply stating that the machine has the potential to push 210A but 210A is not really recommended?My apologies guys, this just has me a little baffled.
Reply:You need to change your statement. The rated output is 150 amps at 30% duty cycle. That's not the maximum output rating.The "rated output" is "rated" at a duty cycle. Consider on of the 110volt welders. They are commonly rated at 90 amps at 20% duty cycle, but they are rated at a max output of about 125-130 amps (at maybe 5% duty cycle). It's not too impressive to say "135 amps at 1% duty cycle", so they pick a more useful number (like 20%).Most welders are rated at 100% and at 30% (commonly stated ratings for comparison). The 150 amps isn't a maximum, it's just what it can do for 3 minutes (out of 10). It can do 210 for possibly 1 minute out of 10. They could have said that the duty cycle was 10% at 210 amps, they just didn't bother to tell you that too. They gave you the 30% rating AND the maximum output rating.If I look at a dyno sheet for an engine and see that it makes 350 hp at 4,600 rpm. I can tell you that it makes 350 hp at 4,600 rpm. I can also say that it makes a maximum of 500 hp (if that dyno sheet shows that it does make 500 hp). I "rated" it at 350 hp @ 4,600 rpm and said that the maximum output is 500 hp. Both numbers are correct, I just chose to give you more information about the 350 hp specification. Maybe this engine can make 350 hp for 3 minutes straight before it over heats. But at 500 hp, it will overheat in 1 minute. That's essentially what the welder ratings are trying to tell you. It makes more than 150 amps, but it will need more time to cool and it will well for a shorter time before it gets hot.Did that make any more sense?KevinHobart Handler 210Tweco Fabricator 181iLincoln Squarewave Tig 175
Reply:"rated" outputs listed are some what arbitrary. There's really no set "standard" in the industry to which they are rated. A good bit of this is for marketing. Company A and B both have machines that go from say 20 amps to 200 amps. Company A may rate it at 150 amps @ 20% duty cycle, but company B may list its rated amps at 130 amps @ 30% duty cycle.  In reality both machines might be exactly the same, but marketing for company A thought a higher number in amps would sell more machines, while marketing at Company B thought a longer duty cycle would be more apealing even at a lower amp. It's deliberately confusing for a reason.The questions you really should ask is...What thickness do I want to weld all the time?What is the maximum thickness I may weld?How long will I weld continuously most of the time? Is this for production where you will weld all day at X or is this something that you can weld for a bit then stop and prep the next part?Input power available / portability vs fixed location. These are partially related to the questions above.How much machine can you afford?Lets take the "average" hobbyist. he wants to work on his fenders so wants a machine that will do thin metal say 18ga. But he also figures taht he'll want to weld up heavier stuff semi regularly, lets say 1/4" and every so often might do 3/8". Lets look at Millers since I'm more familiar with them.From Millers site I see 4 machines that might fit the bill well. The MM212, MM211, the Passport Plus and possibly the MM180. I'll skip the bigger machines for now.The MM212 is rated at 160amps @60%, max amps is 210amps , Min is 30 amps and Miller says it's good for 22g to 3/8". It's 220v only. List $1992The MM211 is rated at 150amps @20%, max amps is 210amps , Min is 30 amps and Miller says it's good for 22g to 3/8". it's 110/220v capable. List $1239The Passport Plus is rated at 150amps @20%, max amps is 180amps , Min is 30 amps and Miller says it's good for 24g to 3/8". it's 110/220v capable. It's lighter than the MM211 and more portable. List $2027The MM180 is rated at 135amps @30%, max amps is 180amps , Min is 30 amps and Miller says it's good for 24g to 5/16". it's 220v only. List $10142 machines are 220v only, 2 are 110v/220v. The MM212 has the highest amps at the most duty cycle, 160amps @60%, so it would handle heavy metals better for longer lengths of time compared to say the MM211 thats 150amps @20%, but the same max amps and thickness rated. The down side of the MM212 is you must have 220v so it's a shop only machine. The MM211 could be used at lower power on 110v say at a friends place to do fenders, and then on 220v at your shop to do 3/8" for short periods of time. The trade off is that it won't weld heavy steel for as long as the MM212 will. The Passport would be a better choice if all you did was portable work, as it's lighter and easier to move, but you pay for this in lower max output (it's designed more to run FC wire and CO2 than the other machines from what I understand, thats why it's still rated at 3/8" despite the lower max listing.) and it's the most expensive of the 4. The MM180 would work if you decided that you wanted a cheaper machine and would pass on the 3/8" capability  and portability of the 110v/220v option, to have a more cost efective machine (yes it's possible to do heavier material with proper prep, but I'll stick with the rated listings for simplicity of comparision.)If you were a  "heavy" hobbyist / production shop and 1/4" was done FT and 3/8" was frequently done, then a heavier machine like the MM252 might make more sense as it's rated at 200 amps @ 60%, 250 amps  @ 40% and max is 300 amps and rated to do 22ga to 1/2".You have to look at all the options and see whats right for you. Does this help and make sense?.No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:One of the interesting things about ratings is that home type welders, like the 211, are rated at a lower duty cycle than industrial welders.  Industrial welders tend to be rated at 60% duty cycle.MM211 output goes from 30 to 210 amps, and is rated at 150 amps at 30% duty cycle.MM212 output goes from 30 to 210 amps, and is rated 160 amps at 60% duty cycle.  So both the MM211 and the MM212 have the same maximum output, 210 amps.   However, one is rated at 150 amps at 30% duty cycle, the other 160 amps at 60% duty cycle.  Anybody trying to get out production is going to want the higher duty cycle of the MM212.   If you are a hobbyist, or an occasional user, you might not worry about the duty cycle much, so the MM211 is good enough.  And of course if you are running less than 100 amps, it might not matter which welder you use, as nobody welds 100% of the time.For comparison, the MM252 goes from 30 to 300 amps, and is rated at 200 amps at 60% duty cycle, 250 amps at 40% duty cycle.  So in this case they provide two ratings, both of which at a higher duty cycle than the 30% rating they use on the 211.It might help if you write down what you understand duty cycle to mean.  Maybe that is part of the problem, that you don't really understand duty cycle.RichardSculptures in copper and other metalshttp://www.fergusonsculpture.comSyncrowave 200 Millermatic 211Readywelder spoolgunHypertherm 600 plasma cutterThermal Arc GMS300 Victor OA torchHomemade Blacksmith propane forge
Reply:Originally Posted by trackbirdDid that make any more sense?
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWDoes this help and make sense?
Reply:Originally Posted by rafergusonIt might help if you write down what you understand duty cycle to mean.  Maybe that is part of the problem, that you don't really understand duty cycle.Richard
Reply:I hesitate to post this so if it more confusing just ignore it until you get a better overall understanding.  The MIG uses a CV Constant voltage power source.  This means your current is only a product of all other settings and variables.  The graph for a mig output will not give a specific amperage curve but a large variation or window.  Reason is it varies.  It is a function of  what range you set the welder to also wire size speed and arc length.  You get a better feel for this with the welders with a digital read out.  For instance the 252  It allows you to set voltage and it displays the welding voltage as you weld.  The machine will keep the voltage constant. So if you set it to 20 volts it will adjust output "Amps" to keep the voltage at 20volts.  Take a look at the manual... it shows that, depending on how long the arc is, will determine the depth of penetration.  This is because of the welder will have to adjust the amps depending on arc length all in attempt to keep voltage constant.  If you look at the 211 manual you will see that the range at max is from 5-225 amp.  This is only theoretical output but you see that there are many variables.
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeHI hesitate to post this so if it more confusing just ignore it until you get a better overall understanding.  The MIG uses a CV Constant voltage power source.  This means your current is only a product of all other settings and variables.  The graph for a mig output will not give a specific amperage curve but a large variation or window.  Reason is it varies.  It is a function of  what range you set the welder to also wire size speed and arc length.  You get a better feel for this with the welders with a digital read out.  For instance the 252  It allows you to set voltage and it displays the welding voltage as you weld.  The machine will keep the voltage constant. So if you set it to 20 volts it will adjust output "Amps" to keep the voltage at 20volts.  Take a look at the manual... it shows that, depending on how long the arc is, will determine the depth of penetration.  This is because of the welder will have to adjust the amps depending on arc length all in attempt to keep voltage constant.  If you look at the 211 manual you will see that the range at max is from 5-225 amp.  This is only theoretical output but you see that there are many variables.
Reply:Yes, You also control amperage by the wire feed speed the arc length and wire size.  This is done by the machine for you.  The reason this is important for you to know maybe not now but as you learn more is that you can use the different variables to control bead size shape heat input and make adjustments depending on what you are doing.  For instance if you want to weld very thin sheet you would use say .023 wire lowest range medium to slightly long arc "stick out" and push the gun.  If you want to weld heavy say 3/8  you could use the 035 wire high range faster wire speed shorter arc and pull the gun. That said don't worry to much about all the details yet.  Get used to the machine first then experiment  There is a lot of good info here and plenty of people to help.
Reply:Originally Posted by MikeHYes, You also control amperage by the wire feed speed the arc length and wire size.  This is done by the machine for you.  The reason this is important for you to know maybe not now but as you learn more is that you can use the different variables to control bead size shape heat input and make adjustments depending on what you are doing.  For instance if you want to weld very thin sheet you would use say .023 wire lowest range medium to slightly long arc "stick out" and push the gun.  If you want to weld heavy say 3/8  you could use the 035 wire high range faster wire speed shorter arc and pull the gun. That said don't worry to much about all the details yet.  Get used to the machine first then experiment  There is a lot of good info here and plenty of people to help.