Do you need a CWI to CERTIFY a welder?

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Okay, I was having a discussion w/a fellow welding instructor yesterday about certifying welders and I said "you have to be a CWI to certify a welder to AWS standards, you can qualify all day long but not certify."  He said "no you don't".  Someone save me from haveing to go through the books...am I wrong in thinking that?  I mean, you can't use a qualification paper as a cert., right?
Reply:I believe you're correct.  I have a TIG/Stick AWS cert and the fellow who signed off on it when I passed the testing is a CWI.  I don't think they'll accept that just anyone knows the proper AWS visual, and guided bend test, pass/fail criteria.Any company can qualify a welder they hire to anything they want to call a standard.  But if you're going to be certified to an AWS/ASME/API standard, I believe you need something more than "Joe Smith" to sign off on the testing results.The requirements for qualifying a welding procedure may be even stricter.  You'd need someone who's ASNT certifed in each Non-destructive testing process to evaluate any weld X-rays, Mag particle, or ultrasonic testing.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:When I did my AWS testing, any of the instructors could administer the tests according to AWS procedures, but only the resident CWI could sign off on the cert papers.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by FusionFreakOkay, I was having a discussion w/a fellow welding instructor yesterday about certifying welders and I said "you have to be a CWI to certify a welder to AWS standards, you can qualify all day long but not certify."  He said "no you don't".  Someone save me from haveing to go through the books...am I wrong in thinking that?  I mean, you can't use a qualification paper as a cert., right?
Reply:I think this is a case of slang terminology; which I'm as guilty of using as anyone.  I'll defer to your explanation as being more accurate and precise.  Thanks for reminding me not to be lazy.... Originally Posted by davinwheelThere are certified weld inspectors who qualify welders. I personally have never done awelder certification only welder qualifications.  If you have done a welder performance qualification test using AWS or ASME Sec. IX  guidelines and had it examined and tested by a CWI who is certified under the code for which you did the WPQ (and it passed the testing) you are therefore a qualified welder under that code. In my 16 years of welding I have never seen a document that said a welder is "CERTIFIED". Only  welder "QUALIFICATION(S)" or that he is a "QUALIFIED" welder.
Reply:Thanks so much for the input.  I work at a place where someone, who is not a CWI, is selling welder qualification papers...seems just plain wrong to me.  No stamp, no cert. #, why would anyone pay for a qual. from "joe blow" when their future employer is going to qualify them anyway?
Reply:Originally Posted by FusionFreakThanks so much for the input.  I work at a place where someone, who is not a CWI, is selling welder qualification papers...seems just plain wrong to me.  No stamp, no cert. #, why would anyone pay for a qual. from "joe blow" when their future employer is going to qualify them anyway?
Reply:Yeah, I know any contractor can qualify...I am talking about a teacher who is not certified selling qualifications to students, when their future employer is going to qualify them for their procedure anyway.
Reply:When I worked at a local "training" center one of the requirements by the government (gov. funded student loans) was that the student get qualified. If this teacher is selling them outside of the school then I can see your outrage. If it is the school that is qualifying them as part of the program then I suspect it is normal.We both know that a qualified welder and a welder that has a AWS Welder Qualification Record (WQR) are not the same thing.  Monkeys and robots can be taught to weld that don't make them qualified workers.Last edited by Fat Bastard; 08-19-2010 at 12:10 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by FusionFreakThanks so much for the input.  I work at a place where someone, who is not a CWI, is selling welder qualification papers...seems just plain wrong to me.  No stamp, no cert. #, why would anyone pay for a qual. from "joe blow" when their future employer is going to qualify them anyway?
Reply:I agree with you, excepting in one case.If you're an independent business operator, then there is a case to be made for making a test weld and getting the qualification from an independent lab.Customers will occasionally ask if you're certified/qualified/capable of passing a weld test.  Having the documentation on hand will occasionally seal the deal on some work.But if you're doing code work for a company than there's no point in getting an independent test. Originally Posted by davinwheelWalking into a future employer's office with qualification papers may give them a short term advantage by helping them make the claim that they are qualified. However, if that company does "code" work the welder will have to do a Welder Performance Qualification (WPQ) for the company's CWI or Quality Control Manager  in each process that he will weld with, such as SMAW, GTAW, GMAW, FCAW and so on.   The people who are buying qualifications are just wasting their money. If they were hired based on qualification papers alone without having to do a weld test they more than likelywould have been hired by just claiming that they were qualified.
Reply:The term "Certified" can mean many things to many people. But essentially any written signed record could be interpreted as "certification". The records are certified by a signature. The welder then has a record of certification.ASME Sec IX States ...Each organizational representative shall complete and certify a Welder/Welding Operator Performance Qualification (WPQ) Record for each welder or welding operator.Forms QW-484A/QW-484B (see Nonmandatory Appendix B) have been provided as a guide for the WPQTWithin the rest of the code, there are no restrictions/requirements for qualification of the person certifying to be a CWI.In the body of AWS D1.1, the term certification is never used in reference to a welder. It is used in the definitions section. AWS D1.1 allows the responsibility of assuring qualification to be with the "manufacturer". But the testing may be done by a subcontractor or other party. However the acceptance of that record of qualification is at the discretion of the manufacturer and often times their customer.The term used in the orginal post "...AWS standards" can mean many things. Some of the AWS requirements for welder qualification testing DO require a CWI. This is the case for an AWS Accredited test facility. However many of the codes used for manufacture and repair DO NOT even refer to a CWI.Anyone can certify any one for anything at any time. However end users, owners, fabricators, can place whatever restriction they see fit on the process of welder qualification. I have seen welders with stacks of welder performance qualification records on file, retested because some salesman didn't try to take exception to a paragraph in a project specification requiring qualification testing within the last few months or so.When I ran a night welding class, students of mine that had the skills were tested using the requirements of AWS D1.1. I signed the WPQ "Certifying" that the welding and mechanical testing met the requirements of AWS D1.1. That paper was given to the welder. Maybe a company will accept it, maybe they won't. But that doesn't change the factt that the person met the requirements. Because my CWI number was on there and the heading was for  the college , the paper was in accordance with all code requirements. However,keep in mind ANYONE can make up a paper.