Marking-out steel (paint markers)

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My local welding supply shop (small-town situation) carries a metal-marking pen called a "Markal Valve Action Paint Marker".  I buy the one that makes yellow lines.  But I'm not too happy with these.  Granted, you're supposed to frequently shake the marker (it's got a ball bearing or something inside to stir up the paint in the solvent solution) - and you're supposed to tap the marking tip on a hard surface every so often to keep the fluid ready to come out.But I get splurges, spots, colorless line stretches, all kinds of inadequate stuff.  Hard to get a consistent, clear, distinct line.  Very frustrating!   And these things have what seems to be a pretty short shelf life, before their marking quality gets bad.Any suggestions?What are you using to mark for cutting?
Reply:soap stone silver pencil works good wider lines lumber crayonmiller maxstar 150   hobart handler 210 w mig conversion hobart 250 arc force plasma cutter    boston ind cutting torch miller performance auto darkening helmet milwalkee 14in chop saw 10,000 watt generator huge drill press and industrial band saw
Reply:Black Sharpie markers work great on aluminum and galvanized steel, with their nice dark contrast with the shiny metal.   They do go dry rather quickly though.  Soapstone works great for hot roll steel, good contrast with the dark mill scale, also great for use with the gas torch, which will burn off just about anything else, losing the cutting line.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Black Sharpie markers work great on aluminum and galvanized steel, with their nice dark contrast with the shiny metal.
Reply:soap stone is really nice, especially on mild steel (shows well against the dark mill scale).  I sharpen my soap stone to a point and get very fine, consistent lines.  A pencil-style holder is really nice, cheap.I bought some markers but they just don't work nearly as well so they have sat unused since the first day they came home.Hobart LX235Victor 250 Oxy-Acetylene Rig (welding and cutting)Bobcat 773F-350, 1999, 4x4, 16' 10K# trailerOutdoor Wood Burner - 10 cords/year
Reply:Hardened steel scribe. (But I use a cutoff wheel so I don't need much contrast.)
Reply:Nothing beats the carbide scribe after painting with layout fluid for precision, but I don't think the OP was looking for so fine a line.
Reply:Soapstone. Works great and is darn cheap
Reply:sharpies, lots of them.  Usually red/green/blue.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:I like the Nissen ball point paint markers.  They work lots better than the Markal paint pens.  The felt tip on the markal always frays, and the thing seems to run out, or dry up long before I think it should.  I like to mark the paint line, then scribe a precise line in the paint.  That way you have the precision of the scribe and the "easy to find on a 40 ft beam" benefit of the paint.  The paint is also weatherproof.  It's good for marking reference lines, part numbers, etc, for assemblies that may get built and then sit out in the yard for a while.  Soapstone won't last through a good rainstorm.http://www.nissenmarkers.comLast edited by AndyA; 09-15-2010 at 11:09 AM.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:Thanks, guys, for all the replies.  Soapstone has a lot of supporters!  I've used it...  need to get a pen-type holder for it, to make it more comfortable to use those short pieces.Only one person has tried the Markal felt-tip paint pen product - and obviously, AndyA, you came to the same conclusion as me.The Nissen ball-point paint marker sounds good.  I'd like to find a retailer for them near me.  One question, Andy:  are they suited to being used "in the field" - like if you have to mark out and cut some rusted steel?  Or will the ball tip clog up under such dirty use?
Reply:I have several worthless Markal pieces of crap right next to me at my desk...If you're just marking up material, Dykem makes pens that hold up much better, especially on warm material.  If you're trying to make an exact line, check out the Silver Streak pencils.
Reply:The nissen ones work well in the field.  Get the larger ball size.  You do have to wipe the extra paint off the tip to keep it working.  If you forget to wipe the tip, you just use a small knife and break off any dried paint.I've bought these from some online place.  I'll have to dig around and see if I can remember where.  Nissen also has a "lipstick" looking paint marker.  Good for writing words, but to sloppy for making cut marks.Dynasty200DX w/coolmate1MM210MM VintageESAB miniarc161ltsLincoln AC225Victor O/A, Smith AW1ACutmaster 81IR 2475N7.5FPRage3Jancy USA1019" SBAEAD-200LE
Reply:I never knew there were so many different kind of paint markers until I went to that Nissen site!  I have a few Markal ones and they are rather disappointing.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I've used sharpies, mostly black and sometimes silver.  They work great on clean, smooth metal, but the fiber tips get torn up (and turn blunt) if used around burrs, and are also not really great around dirty metal (pick up dirt) or oily surfaces.  But if you have enough of them, and the small ones aren't very expensive, then no problem.  Also they are real easy to remove cold with just a bit of something like brake parts cleaner or acetone, but I found if I get them too hot, they "burn" into the metal surface somehow and then become much harder to remove.  Scribe lines also I've found show up real well in a black sharpie colored surface as well.I need to buy one of those metal pen handled, tungsten carbide tipped scribes.  In a pinch I've used a sharpened tungsten electrode as a scribe tool.  Or even a sharpened E70S6 filler rod (which can be bent so it reaches around corners, too... handy for reaching into automotive intake runners and scribing super precise port matching cut lines.I haven't used soapstone, and I don't really understand it, except maybe its better for larger scale, less precise work.  There must be something it's got over a lumber crayon, though; can someone fill me in?  Can it really be trusted to "not contaminate the welds"?Last edited by jakeru; 09-15-2010 at 07:44 PM.
Reply:Soapstone doesn't build up like a crayon.  Crayons leave lumps, and don't draw as well on greasy surfaces.  It also doesn't pick up dirt from the surface.
Reply:Soap stone also doesn't burn off ahead of the cut when using the torch.  I don't know if crayon burns off or not, never used it.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Ah, OK.  Thanks guys
Reply:Andy A (and others), I've been trying to follow up on your recommedation of the Nissen ballpoint paint marker.  I'm in western Canada - sort of mid-way between Calgary and Vancouver.  Since my own welding-supply shop does not carry them, I found the manufacturer's Web site. ( I believe they're in the U.S.) They emailed me the name of the Canadian wholesale distributor (turns out to have offices in Ontario and Alberta).Anyhow, I contacted the wholesale distributor twice, but they didn't return my messages (which I sent by fax). I'd order these pens over the Web or send a cheque by mail (if I could find a catalogue). Then I got hold of someone by phone!  They told me that they distribute the Nissen pens via the Praxair company.This is not the trade/retail welding-supply that I personally have an account with, but Praxair has an outlet about a 50-minute drive from me.  Just wondering if those of you who have tried the Nissen pens have obtained them from a Praxair outlet?
Reply:definitely soapstone for layout. markals are trash. they hand those out free on most of my jobs- those generous lads. I recommend QUICK-STICK for non layout uses. general marking bold lines never dries in the stick but dries real fast on the surface, will write on almost anything. like a wetter lumber crayon.
Reply:Try a liquid paper correction pen. I read this tip on one of the welding forums, tried one and now use them all the time.
Reply:When I worked in the shipyards, a fitter would layout the cut shape with soapstone and then take a center punch and hammer to "pop" punch marks every 1/4" or so for the burner to follow. This way the line never disappeared and there was evidence of who screwed up. The burner would cut the punch marks in half. That way if the part didn't fit in the cut pattern, we knew if the fitter drew it wrong or if the burner cut it wrong! And trust me a good burner can hand cut a line + or - 1/32". Give it a try.***Helpful Hint*** Use a #3 Shade burning lens for cutting, a Shade 5 is too dark for most people to see the punch marks.Good LuckWeldtek
Reply:I like using one of these 90% of the time, for all layout and lines to cut to. It's easy enough to cut to a scratch line with a torch. I've also used the center dab method as described by another posterFor rough work, job numbers and forming instructions, I use thisSharpies are good for Galv. and soapstone is good for metal with mill scale and rustI don't like sharpies where the product is to be painted because of the problems with bleed through.
Reply:Originally Posted by Tinbasher........I don't like sharpies where the product is to be painted because of the problems with bleed through...........
Reply:I find myself using several different methods to mark things. I use the silver pencil for marking sheet steel, silver Sharpie for marking new metal with mill scale, black Sharpie (the double ended one's, fine point and tapered point) for metal that has been ground down to the shiny metal and also for stainless steel. A regular #2 pencil works great on stainless as well. Depending on whether or not I need a real fine line I'll use a metal scribe. I use soapstone for dirty metal and for doing layouts on the floor, and sometimes a chalk line  for longer layouts. I also found that using the chalk line works great if you spray it with Aquanet or other pump type of hairspray, keeps it from getting wiped off as you walk on it.Almost forgot, I do use the paint markers but only to mark bolts after they have been torqued to spec to make sure they don't loosen, especially on the race cars.Last edited by dabar39; 10-17-2010 at 02:06 PM.Reason: added contentI am what I am, Deal with it!If necessity is the Mother of Invention, I must be the Father of Desperation!Originally Posted by Joel_BCneed to get a pen-type holder for it, to make it more comfortable to use those short pieces.
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Soap stone also doesn't burn off ahead of the cut when using the torch.  I don't know if crayon burns off or not, never used it.