Lincoln vs Miller

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Looking to buy either a Lincoln SP-175+ or a Millermatic 175.  Can't decide which one to get, they both seem similar.Does anyone have a preference between the 2 or tell me some "gotchas" to look for?Any help is appreciated.Mike
Reply:My opinion is if you stay with "name-brand" equipment, you will not go wrong.   Miller and Lincoln are both excellent companys.I'm going to make a little bet, though, that a lot of the guys on this site prefer Miller/Hobart.I'll be the LAST one to let you down !
Reply:Having been burned (not literally, however) a few years back with a Lincoln badged unit that turned out not to be Lincoln at all except for the name and color - it was manufactured from recycled pizza dough somewhere in Italy - I think I'd recommend Miller or Hobart.
Reply:(see....I told ya')  I'll be the LAST one to let you down !
Reply:Pick the Hobart...... I'd have said Miller, but I don't like their small machines, as they employ a feature called "wirespeed tracking" or WST.  This makes it a pain for an inexperienced user to dial in.Don't know if you know this or not, but the Hobarts are made a few feet from Millers in the same plant.  They offer the same warranty, from the same service department.Good luck, and enjoy the search!
Reply:I'm aware of the Miller/Hobart connection.  I want the infinite voltage control, though, and to my knowledge Hobart doesn't have this feature.I did notice the WST feature and wondered about that.  The Lincoln doesn't have that, which did seem simpler to me.What is the advantage to the WST, if any?
Reply:If you want the variable voltage control, then the Lincoln SP 175 plus is the machine to get. The variable voltage control on the Miller with the wire speed tracking is a major head ache. On the Miller anytime you adjust the voltage it also  changes the rate at which the drive motor feeds wire. The Lincoln on the other hand is the more traditional design were the wire speed stays constant no matter were you set the voltage.
Reply:I wull haqve to disagree on the MM 175 knock.  I learned on a big RED machine 2 years ago at an almost local VoTech.  I just set up my MM175 using recommended settings on 2X2X1/4" tubing and .035 wire, and got great results after a few practice welds and tweeking.  This after 2 years of NO WELDING.I really love this machine - wish I could have afforded a bigger one, but honestly, I won't be doing more than 1/4" and no aluminum...I could have gotten red at about the same price through the VoTech, but...I have heard stories about reds' customer service toward the little guys, and the complete opposit about blues'.  Blue (and purple) sponsor BBS's red doesn't.Even if the stories are exaggerated, actions speak louder than words and BLUE seems to treat the little guys better.
Reply:Thanks for the responses to all.I had a gut feeling that the Lincoln setup might be less confusing to get the settings correct.  The WST seems like you could "chase your tail" since the voltage setting affects the wire speed.Can anyone explain the reason or advantages to the WST in the Miller?  I'm leaning toward the Lincoln right now.....I have some, but not a lot, of experience welding.  I have an off-brand 120V MIG that I've done some sheetmetal projects with.  Hoping to get into it heavy as soon as I pull the trigger on one of these 175's.Thanks again.  Your opinions mean a lot.
Reply:Originally posted by ohhyesican Thanks for the responses to all.I had a gut feeling that the Lincoln setup might be less confusing to get the settings correct.  The WST seems like you could "chase your tail" since the voltage setting affects the wire speed.Can anyone explain the reason or advantages to the WST in the Miller?  I'm leaning toward the Lincoln right now.....I have some, but not a lot, of experience welding.  I have an off-brand 120V MIG that I've done some sheetmetal projects with.  Hoping to get into it heavy as soon as I pull the trigger on one of these 175's.Thanks again.  Your opinions mean a lot.
Reply:OK..  I am one of the newbee lurkers on the board and finally decided to come out of the closet. I postponed a welder purchase trying to make sense out of the Red vs Blue debate and conclude that it is not going to be decided here or on any forum. To complicate the issue you have the mail order vs your local dealer. The reason I went red (SP175 Plus)? My local blue dealer was more concerned with their profit margin than making a new customer. Local red dealer meet the mail order prices with being prodded into it, and has made a new customer, that will most likely have a tig purchase in the future. So... talk to your local dealer, do a test drive and purchase from the one that treats you like a real human and that will most likely be your best choice.  All this IMHO.  BillLast edited by wgbanks; 03-27-2004 at 10:39 AM.
Reply:Listen to Dan on this one.He does not have a axe to burn with Miller.He really likes their machines.Now if he says the MM 175 is hard to dial in, it is!The Lincoln 175 plus will give you the adjustabilty you cannot get with the Miller.It also is proven machine.It has been refined much longer then the miller machine.I have never seen better weld beads on 16 gauge tubing then with the 175 plus I used to own.I liked the look of the beads better then when I used my 300 powermig.The sp 175 plus is no joke,but until Miller ditches the wft it will always be a joke.A bad one at that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Planet X the Hobart does have wft just like the earlier mm130/130 xp models.It worked ok,but I could live with out it.It just seems to get in the way more then help.They still weld fine with the tapped controls though.
Reply:Hi folks,I've had my MM175 for about a month now, and have to disagree with those who think it is difficult to dial in.  Just forget about the "feature" and keep one hand on the voltage knob (assuming the feed is about right, usually just based on the chart in the panel).  Tweak until you get favorable results given your travel speed and stick out.  You will get a great looking weld bead (remember to verify penetration).  I don't even notice the presence of the 'wst' feature, but can usually get great results within a few minutes of starting to weld.  By the way, I am using C25 gas with the flow meter set to the low end of the recommended flow, 20 cfh, and it works just fine.I would not hesitate to buy a Miller product.MikeMM175 - have it and love itSD180 - in the cards for the future (when money is available)
Reply:Just for those that don't know Dan, he has vast experience with miller machines, is a Miller tester, welds for a living for 20+ years and I would bet, dreams about welding while he sleeps. So I would heed his advice, but hey, it's your money.
Reply:I'm not a professional weldor - I'm a professional electrical engineer.  I think I understand the idea behind wst.  Basically, it is to compensate for the inevitable voltage drop that you get when you increase the current (i.e., the wire feed speed).  Ideally mig is a constant voltage process.  WST compensates for the voltage drop by increasing the voltage output when the wire feed speed is increased.Whether this works for you or not I don't know.  Welding to me is much like driving.  It's all in the "seat of the pants" feeling.  If you can sit there and tweak the settings to your satisfaction, it doesn't matter what is going on in the box.I'd say try both machines and see which one you like better.  For me, I liked the Miller machine, the support from the company, and the support I get from my local dealers. Mike
Reply:Here, lets see if this gives a better understanding of wirespeed tracking.With the Millermatic 135 or 175 the wirespeed tracking means that as you increase the voltage settings the wirespeed also increases, and vice versa. I will try to make it clear how this works. At each position of the voltage control pot the wirespeed control pot has a range. This means that 50 on the wirespeed control pot means 50% of the wirespeed maximum range at whatever the voltage control pot is set to. The wirespeed control pot sends a voltage signal to the printed circuit board which in turn delivers the appropriate voltage out to the drive motor determined by what the voltage control pot is set to. On the Millermatic 175 with the wirespeed,(WFS), control pot set at maximum, (100%), and the voltage control pot set at max,(10), the WFS control pot delivers +30vdc to the printed circuit board,(PC). The printed circuit board then delivers +20.5vdc to the drive motor. When WFS pot is set to minimum and the voltage control pot is set to minimum the WFS pot sends a +3.5vdc to PC and +1.0vdc to drive motor. The voltage control pot sends a referrence voltage to the PC of +1vdc to +6vdc, this is what gives the voltage range for the WFS pot. All this means that whether you are welding or not, the referrence voltages do not change, so the actual WFS should not change while under load. It may drop slightly though do to line voltage sag. The older Millermatic 130's actually were dependant on the actual output voltage and WFS tracking was dependant on whether it had a weld load on it or not. I hope this helps because it sure was a heck of a lot of typing. I think I need to go take a break.............................. MikeGESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Originally posted by b2major9th I'm not a professional weldor - I'm a professional electrical engineer.  I think I understand the idea behind wst.  Basically, it is to compensate for the inevitable voltage drop that you get when you increase the current (i.e., the wire feed speed).  Ideally mig is a constant voltage process.  WST compensates for the voltage drop by increasing the voltage output when the wire feed speed is increased.Whether this works for you or not I don't know.  Welding to me is much like driving.  It's all in the "seat of the pants" feeling.  If you can sit there and tweak the settings to your satisfaction, it doesn't matter what is going on in the box.I'd say try both machines and see which one you like better.  For me, I liked the Miller machine, the support from the company, and the support I get from my local dealers. Mike
Reply:PlanetX,You can t tune in a wirespeed tracking machine by measuring your IPM on the wire speed, because as soon as you start the welding arc the voltage drops to the feed motor, which will decrease the speed of the motor, so of course your IPM will be lower then when you measured it with an OCV. For guys like you and I who need to know that we are putting the proper amount of power into a weld for the given material thickness, an amp and volt meter is the only way to go on a wire speed tracking machine. The advantage to a wire speed tracking machine is that once you get the machine tuned in to were it is producing that sweet short circuit transfer arc it is more difficult to mess up this arc quality by changes in stick out, because any change in the load voltage is going automatically increase or decrease the rate at which the wire is being feed, which of course translates into an increase or decrease in the amperageESAB Migmaster 250 Hobart Ironman 230Multimatic 215TWECO Fabricator 181i & 211iHH125EZ - nice little fluxcore only unitMaxstar 150 STH - very nice
Reply:Anybody know if the transformer windings in the Lincoln are Aluminum or Copper???The Lincoln is about 13 LBS lighter than the MM175, and I know it has copper windings.
Reply:And the verdict is......OK.  I went to a local shop that handles Lincoln about a month ago.  I told him what I wanted, he recommended the SP-175 Plus over the std 175 so I ordered one.  "How long?" I asked.  "About 3-4 days" he said.  No problem, I can wait.  Two weeks go by, I hear nothing, so I call him.  It's back ordered at the factory, scheduled to ship out 3/26, will be here 2-3 work days after that.  I am somewhat perturbed, and begin looking around again, started this post and did some more research.  I like the Lincoln but am starting to wonder about their (and the local shop's) customer service.  So, the promised delivery date comes and goes, still I hear nothing.  He finally called today and said that it was in and ready to pick up.  I ran over, picked it up and brought it home, ready to plug it in and start playing.  I open the box, and the first thing I see is that the gas regulator IS MISSING ONE OF THE CLEAR PLASTIC FACES.   I also noticed that there was some slight marring on the end you insert into the bottle.  I dig a little deeper.  The next thing I see is that the head of one of the plastic rivets in the top of the unit is halfway broken off.  Looking through one of the vents it appears that it holds one of the circuit boards to the top of the sheetmetal case.   It could hold for years that way, but then again it could fail and let the circuit board short out on something inside the case.While standing there dazed and confused at what is becoming a saga, I noticed that there is some kind of an insect nest in one of the grooves of the lifting handle.If these things were backordered at the factory, how could an insect have time to make a nest????  I'd say this has been on a shelf somewhere for a while.  The Lincoln's range is 25 -175 Amps, where the MM175 is 30-175.  I plan on doing a fair amount of car sheetmetal work, so the extended lower end appealed to me.  But right now I'm ready to take this Lincoln back and go to another local dealer that handles the Miller line rather than **** around waiting on a replacement regulator / etc.  My opinion is that both of these units are pretty even otherwise.Whoever said it above is right.  Service is as important as the features of the equipment.  Lesson learned.I need to sleep on this.  I'll let you all know what I decide to do.  This should not be this hard.Last edited by ohhyesican; 03-31-2004 at 08:19 PM.
Reply:Have you e-mailed Lincolns service folks? They responded back to me the same day. In my situation, I chose to get a refund."after a long day of doing nothing...its gooood to kick back" Pumbaa
Reply:People are going to see more one knob controls on wire feed power supplies.  Some of the high end machines with one knob increase voltage with wire feed rate.  The built in computer changes the arc transfer characteristics according to the wire feed selected.I am working with some Lincoln Powerwaves where you call up a menu for wire type and diameter.. even gas.  After that you just adjust wire feed rate.  There is a second knob for trim which is like a fine adjustment on voltage.And to think the first wire feed I ever saw was submerged arc with vacuum tubes to control feed rate.  Times change and we adapt.
Reply:After reading that saga, the first thing I'm gonna say is change dealers, cause the one you got that machine from is one lying sumbich.  The machine you got isn't NEW, it's a machine he managed to get from another dealer, probably one that was a demo or a display.The second thing I'd be doing is calling Lincoln directly, and have the serial number handy.  Explain to them the kind of service you've gotten, and insist on knowing when that machine was shipped, and to whomb.Any dealer worth crap would have removed the machine from the box, and tested it prior to delivering it to a customer.  The kind of service you got from the dealer is equal to the crap service provided by a box store, not a welding supplier.Long shipping cycles on small MIG machines from Lincoln will probably become the rule rather than the exception since Lincoln is building a lot of them in Italy.  They may well have recently acquired Century to have more capacity to build low end machines.BTW, don't forget to tell the person at Lincoln, you talk with, the entire story is on www.weldingweb.comAppreciation Gains You Recognition-
Reply:I agree that I wouldn't blame Lincoln for a scumbag/disorganized local dealer.My local guy only stocks Miller equipment--I ordered my PowerMIG 200 from www.weldingmart.com.  Not only did I get a decent deal and free shipping, but I paid no sales tax since they're in Wisconsin (total was almost exactly $1000).The thing showed up at my door 2 or 3 days later.  I was even lucky and one of the guys who worked for the freight company happened to live practically next door to me so he just brought the welder by in his work van on his way home.