Welding broken tractor frame help!!!

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As you can see from the picture, I broke my tractor in half.  It happened while lifting the front end with the bucket to put some jack stands under the front wheels to perform maintenance....   I've been fighting with the company for almost 2 years over this (4 months over its 2 year warranty, 630 hrs!!!)   I have a slam dunk case according to 2 law firms, but lack the 50-60 grand that it would take to fight them.   So I am left to my own demise....   Had it been my fault I would have just fixed it in our shop almost 2 years ago!!!  It is an Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68HP agricultural tractor from Italy, I use it for logging, field mowing and assorted "tractor" work...  I have hundreds of photos documenting this problem, so if you want to see a particular thing, I probably have it - closeups and measurements in  inches & mm...From what I am to understand, the frame is made of a type of cast steel.  It has also been referred to as a bisalloy cast frame...    We have tried welding it as if it were cast steel, but it behaves as if it were cast iron (really brittle - edge cracking/middle cracking/cracking "good" welds after welding in other areas)....  I don't have the luxury of pulling the whole center section to aggressively preheat.  The rear section is even more of a pickle with exposed bearings.....  We have tried Mig'n it with .030 and .035 70S non fluxed wire and Argon gassed (best results), Arc welding with 6010, 6011, 6013, 7018 (second best results but more pitting), nickle 99, stainless, and two rods that the tool rep suggested we try - nickel 59 and a eutectic highalloy (both of which instantly destroyed the cast metal (as we tried to butter the edges it cracked the cast behind it - one tap and the whole 3/4 inch chunk fell on the floor leaving the Veed out groove a gaping 1/4 hole!!!)We have an old guy from Cianbro stopping by to take a look and lend some advise on what we are doing wrong and what we should do to solve the problem...  But any help from the knowledge base would be great!  I already learned one trick about using a thick piece of metal attached to the work to act as a heat sink - this site is Fantastic!The mig welds butter on really nice initially, but after a couple of passes, what appears to be surface cracking between the cast and mig weld, or between the  mig welded sections ...  a single very small hair line fracture about 1/4 -3/8ths in length...  here or there...  if it was steel i wouldn't worry about it as much, but this is different.Oh yes, since I don't think I can trust the cast frame anymore we are planning on fish plating a housing over the existing housing and then bridging the distance from center to rear with a heavy skid plate that bolts both halves together helping to reduce the stress on the repaired part...  I am not afraid of commentary, so have at it!!!Cheers,           - Dave Attached Images
Reply:that looks like cast iron to me, the fish plate sounds good, is there a good location (beefy area) to drill and tap a bunch of holes to bolt on plates mechanically, opposed to welding anything? I think without pre and post heating any weld or braze will fail, to repair it mechanically would be the way to go from what I can tell.  I'd post more pics zoomed in and out and let the guys on here give a crack at it, there are alot of smart dudes on hereLast edited by eyeball engineer; 01-24-2010 at 01:36 AM.
Reply:Thanks for the quick reply.  We have been on the fence about what kind of cast metal this is.  I just learned the chisel test and will check tomorrow to see if it pounds or powders..  and know nothing about welding a bisalloy steel (if that is what it is)...Yes, there is more meat closer to the front of the center section that could be bolted with 1/2 inch bolts.  Any thoughts about placing a diamond cut or circle in the center of the fishplate and welding that portion to the housing to lock the plate in place with the bolts??? Attached Images
Reply:On a side note, how many of you have ever seen a cast housing bolted together like this???  I was personally horrified when I saw the mating scheme - an upside down "U" bolted to the rear section...  There was nothing on the bottom to prevent the center section from twisting out of the rear section.  All of the cast frames I have seen are flange mounted completely differently and usually use the entire machined surface to help work with the bolts not against them...  I'm sure the design would have been fine if they put more metal in the housing.
Reply:That sure looks like cast to me. Sheesh, look up the word pi$$ poor design and that picture should be beside it. What do the sparks look like when you hit it with a grinder?.....Mike
Reply:In Australia bisalloy is a high tensile abrasion resistant steel plate. I know this because the best steel plate targets for rifle shooting are Bisalloy. It does not crack and hundreds of bullets have little effect on it.Googling 'bisalloy' gives a wealth of info, including this thread on Pg 2.Last edited by AyAy; 01-24-2010 at 07:01 AM.Orion pulse-arc welderStick an O/A too
Reply:Sorry to hear about your issues. I hate to say this, but most likely you may have to face the fact that you may just have to strip the machine and replace that part. I know thats a LOT of work and expense, but here's my thoughts on that.First lets assume the design is correct and that this isn't an on going issue that they are having with the machines. If so, that says to me that you've got a bad casting. Either there were issues in how it was poured (mix too cold, cooled to fast etc), or there were impurities in the mix that have caused weak areas. If so, where will it fail next?My other thought is since this is a high stress area, you may end up having to build a complete wrap around out of steel to replace the "small" area that has broken off completely, and then extend it over a large area to reduce the issue of possibly cracking it else where. Personally I'd avoid welding plugs to the original material, unless you are 100% certain that welding will work. You probably can't afford to weaken the frame any more with a plug weld that tears out.Now lets say that your "splint" works. Can you really trust that machine in the future? How hard can you run it and not be worried about it failing again? Picking the machine up is not even minor stress on almost any machine I've ever run. Usually the hydraulics will kick out long before you have to worry about the loader arms, failing, let alone the frame. After the "fix" that machine will have zero resale value. You'll almost have to give it away to get rid of it with a kludge fix like you are contemplating. I doubt you'd even get the original dealer to take it in trade. So you are left with a machine you can't trust, and can't sell. On the other hand if you replace the frame with a factory original, you hopefully will have the confidence that it's as good as new. (not that I'd be all that confident myself) Also in that condition, you stand a reasonable chance of unloading the machine to someone, even if it's only on a trade in. I'd be looking to get as far away from that as possible myself as soon as you could. I see this as being an on going issue that will probably keep cropping up if it's a bad frame and not a design flaw. In the long run it will probably cost you less, at least in aggravation.Good luck..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWOn the other hand if you replace the frame with a factory original, you hopefully will have the confidence that it's as good as new. Good luck.
Reply:Honestly I don't think there IS a practical solution for this. I assume just walking away from this isn't a viable option for cost reasons. I agree I'd hate to throw them the money for parts, and I'd be hammering on them for at least the parts if nothing else. I wonder if they even have the part to sell. Some items just aren't sold as parts some times. Used isn't an option like if it was a Case or Kubota. The repair probably won't be trusted and he won't get any money out of it when he trys to sell it. If the repair breaks he's really screwed. All the options look poor and expensive. No matter how he looks at it I don't see a winning solution I'm afraid..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:have you tried wirefeeding with stainless wire? i have had good luck with it on cast. though personally i would prefer to just replaceDynasty 200DXPassport plus w/ spoolmate 100victor 315c oxy/(act and prop)Miller digital elitemilwaukee power tools
Reply:We originally thought of replacing the center section, but it cost about $8,000 delivered from California/Italy...    The insurance company (who I thought covered this type of accident) said they do not cover mechanical problems and totaled my $50,000 machine after sending 2 specialists to survey the machine.  The dealer wanted about $20,000 to fix it and wasn't sure about the rear housing availability which meant that I would have had to buy a complete rear section at another $15,000!!!   Might as well buy a different tractor at that point...We then thought of fabricating our own center section, but in order to perform that task, the "genius" engineers that came up with this design made it nearly impossible to perform that task without a complete strip down of the machine - loader, engine, clutch, front axle gearbox dis-assembly...So we came up with two ideas:1:  Scab the broken pieces together as best as possible to create the spacers for the tolerances I need for the 3 drive shafts and then fish-plate a new housing over the old housing and then bridging the center section to the rear with heavy plate and angle.2:  Cut out the bad section and fabricate a new area that replaces the bad section, and then bridge the whole works as in #1.The next task after that is the broken rear section where the bolts ripped out....   If the FN "Kai-zen" geniuses that engineered this didn't put bearings within 2 thread turns of the tapped out bolt hole it wouldn't seem so daunting of a task...  We put a brass frost plug over the bearings for now and am contemplating some half-a$$ fix involving just concentrating on the lower 2 bolt areas and then sealing up the bearing area with some steel epoxy that is oil proof to keep the frost plug from oozing gear oil.  The theory being, that once the skid plate is bolted to the entire length of the center section, the bottom holes shouldn't see any significant stress..   How far off am I???I don't plan on working the machine even close to what I thought the machine should be able to take because it is suspect.  It will become primarily a mower and driveway repair machine -dumping & scraping....
Reply:After working on tractors and farm machinery for 30+ years I think DSW has given you the best advice of all.Or rent a lot next to a dealership that sells that machine, and park it there with a big lemon sign on it.From what I can see that thing was designed to break right where it did.Last edited by shortarc; 01-24-2010 at 11:14 AM.Reason: speelingTrailblazer 302Hobart Stickmate AC/DCLincoln SP 135 TSmith torchSpoolmatic 30A
Reply:Oh yes, I did look up bisalloy and found lots of stuff out of Australia on it, but it only showed applications not repairs...   That is what I am looking for.  How would one weld bisalloy???
Reply:Ok just sitting here thinking. Have you tried to contact the manufacture direct?I just ran the ol Google search for "Antonio Carraro" and got a lot of hits and some were to the manufacture. Maybe you could get them to work with you and bypass the dealer and go direct?Just read your last post, Hit a spot on your housing with your grinder and see what you get for sparks.  bright yellow with streamers usually indicates steel. Light redish looking or almost no sparks, cast iron. I'D almost bet on the latter.Last edited by shortarc; 01-24-2010 at 11:38 AM.Trailblazer 302Hobart Stickmate AC/DCLincoln SP 135 TSmith torchSpoolmatic 30A
Reply:Originally Posted by rangerdave. . .I did look up bisalloy and found lots of stuff out of Australia on it. . .
Reply:Have you considered metal stiching? There must be firms on your side of the pond that do this,We have had cast turbine bearing housings stitched and also the slide holding the table on a big radial arm drill using a firm called Metalock. They claim that stiching is stronger than the original casting. would cost a few bucks but far cheaper than getting a replacement part.Lincoln SP-170 MigHypertherm powermax 45Lorch T220 AC/DC TigButters FM 215 synergic MigKemppi 180 adaptive mig RULES ARE FOR THE OBEDIENCE OF FOOLS AND THE  GUIDANCE OF WISE MEN.
Reply:Do some searches here and on the web for cold welding cast iron (Assuming that's what you have) seems some of the best results have come from stainless but it's important it's low carbon content. I have seen 309L recommended. You weld a very short burst like an inch then peen the weld, let it cool and repeat. Search for threads by yorkiepap and castweld.Lincoln precision TIG 275Millermatic 140 MIG
Reply:""The insurance company (who I thought covered this type of accident) said they do not cover mechanical problems and totaled my $50,000 machine after sending 2 specialists to survey the machine. ""How much did they give you in relation to the cost of the machine?  Is it paid for free and clear?  If it is paid for free and clear, and you got an insurance check from them, why bother fighting something so shoddy?  I would NOT waste time, energy and funds to resurrect this pile of iron.  What I would do, is part it out, ie, pull the engine, radiator, etc, put it all on a pallet, and sell as an industrial powerplant engine, for someone else to spend time with.  Usually engines in that horsepower range are big sellers to farm & ranch operations looking for a pump engine or generator drive engine.  I would take the tires and wheels to the local tire store that deals with ag/industrial tires, see if they can sell them.  Pull the hydraulics, they always come in handy.  The rest of it, gone.  Scrap, junk, gone.  No issues about repairing it and selling it, and it coming back to haunt you.  No issues about repairing it, using it, it breaks and something else is damaged.  No issues about.. well, you get my drift.   Take your lumps, and MOVE ON.  cc
Reply:Have you tried tractor forums like COTA and Tractor Buy net? What about other owners, do they have problems?At the very least, the factory should give you all the replacement parts free.
Reply:Sorry to hear about your luck.  I would ask for help from user Castweld.  I have seen some of the work that he does posted on here, and he knows what he is doing.  Does a great job of tough cast applications like this.
Reply:OK, First, the insurance company did not compensate me - they walked away because they felt the tractor did not fall under one of their "coverages".  Their report stated that it was either damaged in shipping, defective cast, or improper design for use....  Like I said, if this was my fault, we have all of the equipment to perform the work and would have just taken care of it 2 years ago.Second, there is NO chance that any dealer will touch my tractor because of the hassle from corporate that I have received.  So no chance in trade in value.  And no chance in customer support.  I have been told by the president not to contact the company about my tractor!!!   I was even told by the head of Public Relations (Lilli Carraro - owners daughter) to buy a different tractor!!!If you paw through my tractorbynet forum, it should also lead you to other forums that I posted the same questions.          http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/a...ractors-2.htmlSo I am left to my own devises...We thought it was cast iron too, but the 2 nickle rods we had (which we tested by welding known cast iron which welded beautifully) failed to hold - in fact they were horrible welds that instantly cracked and tapped out in one hit.  We tried stainless - also the same result.   But I am not sure if it was a low carbon stainless.  I will have to see if I can get some 309L and see if that works.We tried the grinder test and the drill bit test and I still have to perform the chisel test.  But the sparks fly off of the grinder about 6-10" a dull orange, but the drill bit turns out really nice shavings not the grainy type....   In fact the grinding wheel seems to gum up a bit from grinding out all of the bad welds and then grinding becomes difficult.  I read in this forum that kubota mixes CI and CS in their casings....If I try mig welding with 309L low carbon stainless - what wire size, what gas and what feed/amp rate?  Also, how long and how hard does one peen the weld for.  And if you are peening, how do you know if it cracked if you can't hear it above the banging?  Other than the obvious visual inspection..Here is an overall view of the rear section as was asked..Thank you for everyone's interest and advise.  I will post updates as I get closer to a final solution.PS: I know bisalloy comes in plates that you can get in bulk, but how do they assemble them?  Weld, braze, bolt and magic are the only 4 options I can think of... Attached Images
Reply:Wow!  I'm lookin and lookin, and just don't see a good solution.  At least not a cheap one, or even one that doesn't involve a teardown.  Looks like maybe parting it out would be the best way to recoup your investment.  Or... maybe you have an extra garage you could burn down with it inside?  I'm just kidding 'bout that though.Castweld would be a good guy to talk to though.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Looks like their tractors work as well as their military.OOOps, did I say that out loud?
Reply:What were the welds with the 7018 like ?  You say its cast steel how sure are you ?  Did you get that info from someone in the know ?  My understanding is 7018s would be acceptable to weld cast steel.You say your mig welds went on nice and smooth but then started cracking ?  Did you do any pre heat ?  Maintain proper interpass temp ?  Peen between beads ?Hot cracking :Hot cracking occurs while the heat affected base metal or the solidified weld metal is still at such a high temperature that it cannot withstand even relatively low internal stresses.  If stress is developed while the metal is in this weak condition, the casting tears instead of deforming as it would at a slightly lower temperature.  Hot cracking is more likely to occur in the weld metal than the base metal.  one reason is that the weld metal is hotter than the base metal and cools last.Hot cracking on cast steel can be prevented with pre heat.  I found this info in the Bible.You say you had pitting with the stick welds.  Do you mean porosity as in holes in the weld ?  pre heat helps keep the porosity down by slowing down the  freezing of the molten metal to let the gasses escape to the surface.Im only an apprentice so definitly not an expert.  A lot of guys on here with WAY more experience than me.  But thought id take a look in the good book (The procedure handbook of arc welding by lincoln)and see what I could find for you.Last edited by Newfie_1986; 01-25-2010 at 12:40 AM.
Reply:I would try and splint over it.  welding it back up is just asking for more disaster without a splint.   personally i would Ghetto rig it back together and send it to the auction ASAP as its going to be nothing but greif.   cut your losses and buy americanVantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.pm me and I might know somewhere you could find a lead on getting a case.  That part is probably about 2 grand.  The parts are not generally supported very well on the carraro tractors, though they are fine machines.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:If I see your pics right, the loader was mounted in the worst possible place.  I see it a lot.On an agricultural tractor, as opposed to an industrial tractor, the frame from the transmission forward to the bolster is meant to carry the engine, and the load from the front axle.  Not a front end loader.  I don't care if there's mounting holes, and the brochure says it can be done.Depending on that side rail to carry the additional load and stress from a front end loader is asking for disaster.  And, I know a lot of tractors are designed this way, and a lot of aftermarket loaders are installed this way.  It is simply a bad idea.Unless you're dealing with an industrial loader/backhoe, you must design the loader mount to spread the load between front and real axles, independent of the actual tractor frame.When I built my loader, I designed it with a subframe.  The loader is carried between both axles, and doesn't depend on the tractor main frame for support.  Vertical and pushing loads are spread between front bolster, and rear axle housing.  Westendorf employs this method exclusively.  It is a good time honored design.A good lawyer might win, or in all likeliehood, you'll be out a ton of bucks on a promise.I don't have a really good pic, but you can see what I mean.First, and second pic...........subframeSecond pic..........loader and the frame of the loader that rests on the subframe.If you can get the damage repaired, purchase or design a loader with these characteristics.  It need not be a quick attach design, but it should be independent of the main tractor frame if possible.  The additional loader frame wouldn't be needed if it were a permanent mount Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I will agree and disagree with Farmersamm. My experience with being raised on a farm and being and my family also being an WHITE/Agco/Massey dealer. The first thing you have to know is that a tractor front end loader is not a $^*^%&* bulldozer. If you want to push stumps or dig ditches get a bulldozer and a real front end loader. If you are going to use the loader as intended; hay bales, manure, loose dirt, then frame mounted loaders will suffice, but if plan on doing much more a mount similar to what FS is describing is more appropriate.
Reply:Originally Posted by minner. . .The first thing you have to know is that a tractor front end loader is not a $^*^%&* bulldozer. If you want to push stumps or dig ditches get a bulldozer and a real front end loader. . . .
Reply:I do ALOT of repairs to farm and heavy equipment axles. Given the pictures you took, the nature of the break, those bolts, Questionable metal type and stress of being an axle on a logger going through rough terrain!! Any repair you attempt will most likey fail as well as be costly. The folks here have already given you a good response as to your options. 1. Get another axle (it appears the dealer & manufacturer will not help) search the many salvage yards across the nation you might be surprised and locate another axle.    2. Part the tractor out and use the money to buy something like an industrial tractor or logging tractor. 3. Attempt to fix it!!  But realize when it breaks again you could be far up in the woods and/or the breakage causes an injury.A good industrial tractor is the ford new Holland 345 or 445 with 4wd. Pick up a used one. I have one that I use on my farm for many things including harvesting black walnut trees for firearms manufacturers.Last edited by specter; 01-25-2010 at 09:37 AM.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.&  2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Take it apart, and fabricate the piece yourself. Make it out of good old American steel and be done with it.Sure its a lot of work and time. But you will be much happier and confident you did the right thing. Then post up some pictures. Maybe you can get some of the fellers in here to machine some pieces for you.It sucks that your hard earned American dollars got taken like that.
Reply:Originally Posted by minnerI will agree and disagree with Farmersamm. My experience with being raised on a farm and being and my family also being an WHITE/Agco/Massey dealer. The first thing you have to know is that a tractor front end loader is not a $^*^%&* bulldozer. If you want to push stumps or dig ditches get a bulldozer and a real front end loader. If you are going to use the loader as intended; hay bales, manure, loose dirt, then frame mounted loaders will suffice, but if plan on doing much more a mount similar to what FS is describing is more appropriate.
Reply:I think you have cast iron.  Its cracking because the weld is cooling faster than the  cast can put up with.  Short orange sparks too.  My dad says its like cake batter, you never know what is in it.I have done two, of those.  One was aluminum (spool gun) and the other one was some kind of cast steel that I welded with 7018.  To weld it, you HAVE to take it out of the frame and heat the whole thing.I would tack it together, then vee it out. Like said above, brazing it with another guy holding the preheating torch.You can also knock the flux off ni99 and tig with it.  Works pretty good, you still have to heat the whole housing.It MAY weld with 7018 once its hot.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Use the motor on your next sawmill. Put handle bars on the backend and push snow. No need to weld it. If it didnt break from falling off a building then you wont hold it. Must be bad engineering. Cant weld that. Buy American. Harold
Reply:Good advise by all.The thing about abusing the tractor would be  credible IF I was abusing it.  I have a smaller 42 Hp Pasquali tractor that I had been using harder than the newer bigger tractor and it is probably 10 years old.  The center section that articulates is real steel though - infinitely tougher.  So it just floors me that the new tractor fell apart.  I would never have bought it if I had known how it was put together.  That upside down "U" cast joinery is wrong in so many ways and the 1/4 inch cast wall thickness was just jaw dropping for a 68HP tractor - Supposedly "adequate" as posted by the ACAmerica president to me....   It is the same frame they are using on the 94HP models as well    I included a couple of pics...  my old Pasquali and the reason why I went with this machine - It was based on Antonio Carraro's own advertising.  When I saw how they had a forestry package on the machine (supposedly purpose built), I bought that same machine and outfitted it exactly how they did.  The loader was factory installed.  Not a garage hack from some supplier.  I could have purchase a lot more that was stronger for that kind of money.I don't plan on using it to the extent I had been planning to either.  It will be retired to general "easy" work and mowing fields.   I have an old army truck that I have salvaged to build a small grapple skdder to replace the TRX for logging.  Real steel and nearly all of the parts to put it together.We had a welding specialist stop by today.  His father bought a used ambulance off of us to rig up as a portable welding shop.  His first impression was that it was the "worst cast steel junk he has ever seen - look at how poorly grained that metal is.  It grinds like cast iron, but its taking welding...."  "You might as well just use JBWeld on the rear because anything you do will be just as strong......"He's taking a chunk to the shop he works for so his people can do tests with it and find out what the metal actually is.  He's recommending tigging it back together, but is unsure if it will work until he knows what kind of metal hes working with.  He's not sure low carbon stainless will work either, he thinks it will just peel off the cast with any stress because there is not enough mixing of the metals.He's a master welder working with Cianbro Corp. and he's supposedly one of 5 people in the country that can weld a specialized heavy walled proprietary pipe designed for the oil companies well drilling rigs - ultra high pressure pipe....  They had to invent a way of welding the pipe joints together, because the company specs on how to do it were wrong.  The companies could never pass X-Ray tests theirs did.  However they do it, it costs $18,000 a foot to join the pipes together!!!I'll have to see what he comes up with.  We agreed on an hourly price and he thinks he can do the work this week some time.  I am a seat of the pants welder, not a pro, I don't even pretend to be one.  I can weld really well on steel, but this is beyond me and the old man that has been running a machine/boat shop for about 40 years..I'm OUT Attached Images
Reply:Harold,Your ignorance is showing.  Point me to an American made tractor please.  The only company maintaining SOME production here is John Deere.  And there are precious few models in that size that are made here,  and NONE in that configuration made here at all.ranger,Its cast iron. I am familiar with those tractors.  Maybe you could ship it to castweld here on the site.  Welding cast iron is NOT like welding anything else, even if it was one of 5 welders certified in another type of material.Last edited by lugweld; 01-25-2010 at 06:28 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:cool tractors! sorry about your predicament. pigpen
Reply:Originally Posted by rangerdaveAs you can see from the picture, I broke my tractor in half.  It happened while lifting the front end with the bucket to put some jack stands under the front wheels to perform maintenance....   I've been fighting with the company for almost 2 years over this (4 months over its 2 year warranty, 630 hrs!!!)   I have a slam dunk case according to 2 law firms, but lack the 50-60 grand that it would take to fight them.   So I am left to my own demise....   Had it been my fault I would have just fixed it in our shop almost 2 years ago!!!  It is an Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68HP agricultural tractor from Italy, I use it for logging, field mowing and assorted "tractor" work...  I have hundreds of photos documenting this problem, so if you want to see a particular thing, I probably have it - closeups and measurements in  inches & mm...From what I am to understand, the frame is made of a type of cast steel.  It has also been referred to as a bisalloy cast frame...    We have tried welding it as if it were cast steel, but it behaves as if it were cast iron (really brittle - edge cracking/middle cracking/cracking "good" welds after welding in other areas)....  I don't have the luxury of pulling the whole center section to aggressively preheat.  The rear section is even more of a pickle with exposed bearings.....  We have tried Mig'n it with .030 and .035 70S non fluxed wire and Argon gassed (best results), Arc welding with 6010, 6011, 6013, 7018 (second best results but more pitting), nickle 99, stainless, and two rods that the tool rep suggested we try - nickel 59 and a eutectic highalloy (both of which instantly destroyed the cast metal (as we tried to butter the edges it cracked the cast behind it - one tap and the whole 3/4 inch chunk fell on the floor leaving the Veed out groove a gaping 1/4 hole!!!)We have an old guy from Cianbro stopping by to take a look and lend some advise on what we are doing wrong and what we should do to solve the problem...  But any help from the knowledge base would be great!  I already learned one trick about using a thick piece of metal attached to the work to act as a heat sink - this site is Fantastic!The mig welds butter on really nice initially, but after a couple of passes, what appears to be surface cracking between the cast and mig weld, or between the  mig welded sections ...  a single very small hair line fracture about 1/4 -3/8ths in length...  here or there...  if it was steel i wouldn't worry about it as much, but this is different.Oh yes, since I don't think I can trust the cast frame anymore we are planning on fish plating a housing over the existing housing and then bridging the distance from center to rear with a heavy skid plate that bolts both halves together helping to reduce the stress on the repaired part...  I am not afraid of commentary, so have at it!!!Cheers,           - Dave
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldHarold,Your ignorance is showing.  Point me to an American made tractor please.  The only company maintaining SOME production here is John Deere.  And there are precious few models in that size that are made here,  and NONE in that configuration made here at all.ranger,Its cast iron. I am familiar with those tractors.  Maybe you could ship it to castweld here on the site.  Welding cast iron is NOT like welding anything else, even if it was one of 5 welders certified in another type of material.
Reply:What is really dumb about Carraro tractor is they’re getting a million dollars of free publicity, BAD publicity. What they will be losing in sales by not standing behind their products out weighs the value of the broken part. I know what my next tractor will not be.
Reply:While I was fixing the spindle on the Allis today, I took a pic of how a loader should be designed and mounted on a subframe.  Complete suspension between front and real axles.That being said.............I did break the front spindle on the tractor unloading pallets of Quickcrete around 3700lbs a pallet.  At least I think that's what caused the eventual failure.  The damage probably took a while to show up.  Crack, stress, break.I does illustrate the limits of agricultural tractors.  They're designed to pull implements, not double as a front end loader.  Front ends are too weak.  I know the newer FWD's are stronger, but I'm just focusing on 2WD's.Front to back subframe, with stiffener in the middle in pics.  This was, and probably will be, the best build I've ever done.  I seem to be getting a little bit careless as I'm getting older, and I don't particularly like it.3x5 3/16 tubing with full fishplate at all connections.  It was back in the day, when I still used 6013.  I used to build redundancy into my work, and now I'm trying to see how far I can push the limits.  I dunno if that's a road to ruin or not.Another thing I don't do anymore is to make a set of prints.  Used to do the whole scale thing and all.  Just had to cut and weld.  The problems were thought out beforehand.Now I have an idea, and get after it.  I'm not sure it is the right way to go.  I encounter problems mid stream, and sometimes it's too far into the water to get back safely to shore Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Edit..........REAR AXLE...........not "real axle"Anyhow, I'm feeling I'm just not as good as I used to be."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Anyhow, I'm feeling I'm just not as good as I used to be
Reply:Well I got some news from the guy that is going to help me.  He brought it to the shop and although  everyone at the office thought it was a form of cast iron, they conceded that it was the worst piece of junky steel any of them had seen....His plan is to wrap the section with heating blankets to help pre-heat, tig it together at a temp of around 800 and then slow cool down with the heating blankets....This piece is still on the tractor.  How should I protect the front of the unit from heat (I'm thinking of wrapping electrical stuff and hydro hoses in aluminum foil and placing sheet metal in front of that).  How about heat sinks?  Or with tig welding will the heat stay pretty localized and I shouldn't worry too much if I shield everything.Also, If this guy is talk, what should I be looking out for?  I'd like to go into this knowing a little before hand...I plan on taking pics and maybe video of how things work out.  If the tig process works out, we might just splurge and get the tig adapter to our Snap-On Tig/Mig Unit!  Oh, what new adventures we could have with welding!
Reply:I think the frame side is going to be the easy part, I'd be worried about the side that has the shafts coming out of it and looks like a transmission.  Who knows what all is just inside of where the welding needs to be done.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Originally Posted by rangerdaveWell I got some news from the guy that is going to help me.  He brought it to the shop and although  everyone at the office thought it was a form of cast iron, they conceded that it was the worst piece of junky steel any of them had seen...
Reply:I have a solution; 5 gallons of gas and a match....And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Originally Posted by rangerdaveThe thing about abusing the tractor would be  credible IF I was abusing it.
Reply:Originally Posted by ChamferTrodeNot IF you abused the machine, you DID abuse the machine, and I quote:What did you expect with most of the weight suspended between the rear wheels and the bucket? The frame is designed to support the tractor's weight between it's wheels, which, lets face it that tractor is short wheel based. Do you change the rear tires by overloading the bucket and doing a wheel-stand as well?
Reply:I don't believe that lifting the front broke Rangerdave's frame; that's probably simply when the break became apparent.Standing a tractor on two wheels is common, and designers of good machines plan for it..Slowly lifting a stationary tractor in the air with down pressure is nothing. Consider that working machines routinely "stand up" when crowding a pile, grading, pulling heavy draw-bar loads, etc.Decent industrial machines will easily stand up on even one wheel, and easily take a crash landing after being  "spit," even with all four wheels in the air.From all appearances, Rangerdave's machine seems like a light design which was oversold. Look at the sales brochures, the machine and factory approved attachment was advertised as being capable for use in log work. Log skidders and log loaders routinely stand up and drop when working. Using down pressure to raise a machine for service is standard procedure. The company's seemingly complete indifference is amazing. They could step-up and make this right for the cost of one bare casting, and possibly de-rating the machine  - chump change.This could turn into one of the most expensive castings Antonio Carraro didn't stand behind. As it stands now, a million dollar's worth of advertising won't sell a potential buyer who searches the internet for Antonio Carraro tractor and finds Rangerdave's plight.Of course  Antonio Carraro could turn this bad situation around in their own favor; if they would do what's right. What's right would be for Antonio Carraro to reevaluate the failure and to reconsider whether or not the machine was abused when compared with what the sales literature promotes.But to say that lifting the front with bucket down pressure is a frame-breaking abuse, which voids warranty, is absurd. Dodging the issue is no solution. Antonio Carraro may not be so lucky if the next one completely breaks while being used in the field, rather than when in the shop for maintenance.Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 01-28-2010 at 02:52 PM.