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I built one implement already with mild A25? steel and it isn't holding up. I was wondering what grade is typical for tractor implements like buckets and digging attachments? A325?Thanks ahead of time.
Reply:Kind of a loaded question..Most stuff is just steel that was hardened after it was made..That's why some of it is difficult to repair and if you replace it with just steel replacements that have not been hardened after manufacturing then yes it is a waste of time and no they will not last..Some stuff is just steel also that was welded on the wear surfaces with hardening rod..Very tough stuff when applied..What are you having problems with?Farmersamm would know more about this than I do....z.ap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:MOST of it is plain, mild steel, with no hardening, unless it is a cutting edge itself, and even many manufacturers get by on the cheap with that by using only cold rolled and hot rolled steel. Points,shanks and teeth may or may not be treated or a cast alloy, but other than that, the basic buckets and frames that surround the actual engaging point are mild steel. I do know of some V-Ripper plows made from T-1.Last edited by lugweld; 10-09-2010 at 04:38 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:If it's Kabota then a lot of the pieces for the tractor as well as implements are made out of martensitic steel which is a blend of cast irons and mild steel. It's not as strong as steel but strong enough for them I guess. I've had to repair several and a cast rod must be used.
Reply:Thanks for the replies. Nothing I am dealing with is cast or ductile.I had a scarifying bucket that I built a set of grapples for. I used 4" x 1/2" mild steel for the construction. The teeth double as rippers and extend past the bottom edge of the bucket about 18", right between the bucket tines, when fully closed. I welded ripper teeth onto the tips to extend the life. The problem I am having is when I worked it hard for the first time, the hydro's began tweaking the grapples, several welds broke, actually looked like they pulled out of the steel. I welded the crap out of them too, had good penetration. Most of the construction I used 6013 for the root passes and 7018 to top them off. When this happened, I sucked the hydro's back in to force the grapples back into shape and rewelded the snot out of them again. I have reinforcement at every stress point as well. So far, it has held up since, but I haven't the opportunity to really work it hard like I did the first time out the gate. So that is the basis for my question. None of the other implements I own seem to be as flexing and weak as the steel I used for this project. I used A25 mild steel, just the stock from the steel company, nothing special. I was just wondering if the industry used a more hardened steel like A325 or something. I know it will cost a lot more. I am making plans to build a rake bucket for my backhoe, and I don't want the same issues.
Reply:Originally Posted by Idaho CowboyI built one implement already with mild A25? steel and it isn't holding up. I was wondering what grade is typical for tractor implements like buckets and digging attachments? A325?Thanks ahead of time.
Reply:Flexing is usually a poor design. Picts of what you built would help.Lots of the small equipment attachments I've seen are often poorly designed or lightly built. Often people just use whats available or go cheap ( the reason they didn't buy a real one in the first place). Root rakes and so on take a lot more abuse than a standard bucket, and lack the shear wall strength that helps keep buckets light. You have to make up for that lack of shear wall with mass. Look at the tines on a commercial Bobcat rake and then look at the steel on a bucket. Whole different ball game there. As soon as you move up to a backhoe everything needs to get ramped up. The "heavy" steel on the sides of a Bobcat bucket is lighter than the "light" steel on the backhoe..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:I'll try to get some pics. I didn't go with a shear wall design because of the way that I wanted the rake/grapples to work. Let me see about getting some pics up.
Reply:Okay, here are some pics. Note, I only fabbed the grapples. The bucket is one I bought, industrial quality, nearly indestructible. I have used it hard, and it has held up well over the years. Here is the grapple without the hydro's, just primed. You can see the hydraulic attachment points, and my design, which I thought would be sufficient, with the A frame to support the pressure. Here it is all shiny and new. Part of the reason I built this myself, was because no one offered a bucket that did what I wanted it to. The other reasons were primarily financial, and because I wanted the experience. Here is my ripper design:With the teeth welded onPicking up some piling cutoff, this piece is 24" diameter and 7 feet long. About ~400 pounds.I fabbed every piece myself. Not too bad considering I don't have the right tools to really do a high quality job. I did have to send out my mounting brackets to have the holes machined in for the mounts and the hydro's. Couldn't do that part myself. Everything else was a mini-grinder, band saw, torch, and an old Lincoln AC 225 welder.
Reply:The part that broke on me was the A frame. The hydro's ripped the welds right out of the steel on both ends. I had them welded on both sides as well. When I welded them back together, I cranked up to 150 amps and used 7018 to run multiple overlapping passes where the break was. It has held so far.
Reply:Not seeing the exact damage I can't say for sure... The "A" looks like the steel is used in the wrong direction. Are you trying to stop lateral movement or vertical movement? I'd guess vertical. If so the steel should have ben flipped 90 deg. Actually angle would have been a better choice or square tube, that way the shape stiffens the arms..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:looks good mate. is there any way of increasing the angle of the hydraulics? i reckon maybe there could be too much force on the clevices where the cylinder anchors at each end, because the angle is so shallow compared to the pivot point.. the rod is trying to pull/push against the frame when it only needs to open and close the frame. (i'm not making a lot sense, hopefully someone can explain it a bit better). its almost as if the back cylinder mounts (at the barrel end) need to be raised up.
Reply:I played with the mount locations for a long time. I even asked my buddy at CAT who is an engineer, if there was a formula for figuring out where to put the mounts. In the end, I made up a jig and just kept moving the mounts until I got full range of motion with the cylinders in operation, all the way down and up to 90*. So where they sit now is the best way. The angle is high enough that the cylinders are applying continual down or up pressure. The only time there is direct pressure against the arms is when I am clamping something and the jaws won't close any further. @DSW, not sure exactly how I could reverse the A. If I did, I'm afraid that the point where the cylinder attaches would just fold up and bend in half. I wanted the A to hold the pressure of the cylinder without deforming the grapple, if that makes sense. In effect it is placing all the force right back on the grapple mounts on the bucket. I don't have pictures of where it broke. I didn't take any. Basically it ripped the A apart and tweaked the grapple sideways. When I pulled the hydro's back in, it sucked it back into shape, so I just rewelded the crap out of it again.
Reply:That's a nice strong design for a grapple. I just don't think it will hold up as a ripper. JMHO, MikeOl' Stonebreaker "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:I think you would get a better frame if you has some heavy tube incorporated in the frame rather than plate. A flat bar across the frame is transferring the torque to the tines. A tube would do a much better job. Also preheat anything that is 3/4 or thicker. It does not have to be much. 200 F usually is more than enough.
Reply:I had repaired a grapple for a guy, It was the hydlic cylinder attachment to the mainn frame. I beveled the hyd. attachment and puted a 1/4th in plate inside it n welded ut up to a 6 bead buld up. never had a problem after that.Of course I don't look busy.....I did it right the first time!
Reply:Originally Posted by stamplooks good mate. is there any way of increasing the angle of the hydraulics? i reckon maybe there could be too much force on the clevices where the cylinder anchors at each end, because the angle is so shallow compared to the pivot point.. the rod is trying to pull/push against the frame when it only needs to open and close the frame. (i'm not making a lot sense, hopefully someone can explain it a bit better). its almost as if the back cylinder mounts (at the barrel end) need to be raised up.
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanI think you would get a better frame if you has some heavy tube incorporated in the frame rather than plate. A flat bar across the frame is transferring the torque to the tines. A tube would do a much better job. Also preheat anything that is 3/4 or thicker. It does not have to be much. 200 F usually is more than enough.
Reply:Originally Posted by mla2ofusThat's a nice strong design for a grapple. I just don't think it will hold up as a ripper. JMHO, Mike
Reply:As said above, a wide range of steels are used depending on WHERE on the implement and WHO made them. There are a lot of cheaply made skidsteer attachments.My company has a lot of larger equipment. We see quite a bit of AR400/500 steels used on buckets(except for cutting edges). This is a manganese steel that is more abrasion resistant. We've been advised to preheat prior to welding.
Reply:I think the design is fine idaho, probably what happened is when you put the "wood" to it the grapple flexed and unzipped the weld under the rod eye.I would make another A frame from the angle where you have welded your mounting ears going to just under the rod eye. If the frame still twists forward under the rod eye then stitch in a strap between the two A frames and make a mini "I" beam.You may also experience rapid wear at the mounting pin holes, if you ever need to replace them look for some T-1, pretty strong at 300 brinell and dead easy to weld with lo-hy.Last the fillet welds in tension need to be multi-pass and larger than normal as you are fighting tensile strength and shear at the same time as the grapple flexes.Looks really good though, nice job!Matt
Reply:though you didn't post a close up of what you tore up or the weld itself, it sounds like you didn't use a large enough weld. the alternative is to weld a higher tensile slip/saddle with the clevis eye that you then weld to the grapple.edit:I looked back at your picture, is the pointing point a full pen weld or just a wrap around weld?
Reply:Originally Posted by Idaho CowboyIt seems pretty strong so far. What would you suggest to beef it up?
Reply:As a grapple it looks OK, but as a ripper, IMHO, I don't think you will ever get to last.The ripper support structure is large. To get it rigid you would have to put so much steel into it you would get rid on a lot of net lifting capacity.In you pics you are in a forested area so I assume you are ripping roots. Roots do not evenly apply stress to the structure.For a ripper design, I would look at something that attaches to the rear stabilizer location (my Bobcat has the mount and hydrulics)or a dedicated ripper for the quick attach front.or a bucket with the ripper built into the back of the bucket. I an't find a pic. The front looks normal, but between the bucket and the quick attach there are rippers. They are lowered by hydraulics when necessary.
Reply:Seeems to have been pretty much answered, but I'll chime in anyway. The steel used can vary, depending on the design and budget and purpose and so forth.It could be anything from plain low-carbon steel, to a higher strength low-alloy steel, to a hardened wear steel, and so on.So, the answer to "What kind of steel is it?" is ...It depends. Since I can't see the OP's pics from here (corp firewall), I won't comment on anything there.But I -will- comment on Bob wrote:If it's Kabota then a lot of the pieces for the tractor as well as implements are made out of martensitic steel which is a blend of cast irons and mild steel. It's not as strong as steel but strong enough for them I guess. I've had to repair several and a cast rod must be used.Originally Posted by Matt_MaguireI think the design is fine idaho, probably what happened is when you put the "wood" to it the grapple flexed and unzipped the weld under the rod eye.I would make another A frame from the angle where you have welded your mounting ears going to just under the rod eye. If the frame still twists forward under the rod eye then stitch in a strap between the two A frames and make a mini "I" beam.You may also experience rapid wear at the mounting pin holes, if you ever need to replace them look for some T-1, pretty strong at 300 brinell and dead easy to weld with lo-hy.Last the fillet welds in tension need to be multi-pass and larger than normal as you are fighting tensile strength and shear at the same time as the grapple flexes.Looks really good though, nice job!Matt
Reply:Originally Posted by Idaho Cowboy.........I had no intention when building this of ripping up roots like tree stumps or even holly. In fact, I think it was big holly bush that broke it the first time.
Reply:I should have wrote a full (pen)etration weld or a weld that just covered the outside seam (wrap around or seal weld).
Reply:I understand. It is a full penetration weld. I burned it in deep and worked concentric circles 100% around the perimeter. I think I didn't make them wide enough though, as mentioned previously, and didn't get enough bite into both sides of the weld.
Reply:T- 1 or bernel 500Hobart mega arc 250 Airco dipstick160 air liquide cutting torches arc air gouger and so many more goodiesIf you cant dazzle them with brillants baffle them with bullsh$t
Reply:Most farm equipment is mild steel for framework, anything that is cultivation is forged, I work with alot of farm implements, bog equipment, you have got alot of flat steel in your design, I think your design is sound, but I would have gone to 2" square tubing, kept the forks at the end.Also get in their and prep you fillet welds well.
Reply:tubing would have been a stronger way to go. I may be looking at rebuilding this anyway, as it is not holding up well under continued use.
Reply:i worked for a machine shop that rebuilt end loader buckets for coal mines and rock quarries, welding up ,boring bushing holes, making complete buckets at times... we used alot of 4140pre-hard.. alot of the teeth that we replaced was carbide, seen some welded stellite alsoLast edited by brucer; 12-01-2010 at 03:13 AM.tackleexperts.comwww.necessityjigs.comhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/mach...dingequipment/
Reply:4140... Do I want to know how much that costs? |
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发表于 2021-9-1 00:23:18