Help me decide Miller 211 or 212

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I've had a Lincoln tombstone ac/dc stick welder for years. Thinking of upgrading to a MIG and I can't decide between the Millermatic 211 and the 212. I'm trying to decide if the extra $600 for the 212 is worth it for my use (home/hobby) They both will weld the same thicknesses pretty much, but the 212 has twice the duty cycle and a little better specs (plus it weighs 100lb more = heavy duty). Also, I'd like to be able to weld aluminum and the spool gun is quite a bit more expensive for the 212 (200 series $710 vs. 100 series $239). I'm the kind of person who only wants to buy a tool like this once and there for try to buy the best. I also try to buy something that will fit my needs and then some, but at the same time don't want to waist money. For the amount of aluminum I'd be welding the 200 gun is over kill I think.I'll mainly be welding on my Jeep, tractor implements and other farm/home related things. If I spent the extra money and got the 212, it would probably be a long time until I could justify the extra expense for the 200 aluminum gun. If I got the 211, I'd probably buy the 100 gun at the same time so that would make it a more versatile purchase. I don't have enough experience with MIG to know it I'd use any of the extra features the 212 offers. Mainly I'm just going off the duty cycle and extra weight of the 212 in knowing it's a better machine and would probably last a life time. That's what I'm after, but maybe the 211 is heavy duty enough for my uses to last a life time too. 30% duty cycle doesn't sound like much though......Can anyone steer me in the right direction please?Thanks,Rick
Reply:A few questions to ask yourself.Will you need to take the machine outside the shop?  Any traveling to other sites?Will you need to operate the machine on 110v power (portable use)?If the answers those questions are yes, the 211 is the right machine for the job.  It is a reasonably light weight and portable light duty machine that can be used just about anywhere with it's dual-voltage power capability.  It welds very nice with .035 fluxcore self shield wire which is good for outdoor jobs.  The price is great too.  There isn't another machine made that offers dual voltage portable wire welding at such a low price in a quality machine. Otherwise, if the machine will stay in the shop, the 212 has the higher duty cycle, uses 12" rolls of wire which are cheaper per lb, has a better wire drive mechanism, heavier duty mig gun and has it's own rolling cart and bottle rack that can hold a full size 250cf bottle.  There is a dual bottle rack option for it too, so you can have a spot for your argon bottle for aluminum.  The 212 can also be used with the Spoolmatic 30A spool gun, a truly professional grade gun with a 30' cable set that can be used with many other welding machines.  It will hold it's value well if you decide to sell it later, as it is in demand by professional welders.  This is a much better spool gun than the Spoolmate 100, 200 and 3xxx series.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Portability doesn't really interest me. I guess it would come in handy, but it really hasn't been a problem in the past. If someone wants something welded, they bring it to me. That way I have my shop and all my tools to do the job right. I've read a lot of good reviews on the 211 for the "hobbyist", but don't see too much on the 212....The 212 seems a lot more professional and I like that, but at the same time I don't want to waist the money. You also have the big aluminum spool gun price tag. I don't know if that should hold me back though, because I don't know if welding aluminum with MIG is really on my list. Sounds like if you only do it occasionally, the results are not that good. That's kind of my problem with the stick welder I have now. I don't weld that often and I can make a good weld if the conditions are good, but overhead or vertical beads don't turn out so well.....
Reply:I have a 211 and love it.  But I think the only reason to buy a 211 is if you need to sometimes weld on 110v.  There are a lot more affordable options in the 220-only models.(Another opinion: Mig-welding aluminum is kind of a losing game.  You can't go very thin or very thick, and it'll only make you want to get a Tig setup.)Jack OlsenMy garage website
Reply:Jack, you're saying if I decide on the 212, I should look at some other brands? What models do you suggest?
Reply:Why does the 211 seem so much more popular?Is it because of the portability or is it because it's at the top of the hobbyist category and the 212 is at the bottom of the pro category?...
Reply:What thicknesses do you see yourself doing regularly? If you generally plan to do stuff 3/16" and less and only accasionally need to do 1/4"- 3/8" then I'd think the 211 would be fine. If you plan to do a lot of 1/4" and heavier, then go with the 212 as it's a better performer on heavier materials.The only twist to this is that the 211 will run on 110v and 220v where the 212 is only 220v. No big deal if you will use it all the time in the shop, but if you want the ability to go portable and use it say at your buddys on thin steel, thats a strong argument for the 211.My machine is about the same as the 212 in performance. I find it's a great shop machine and will do 90% of what I want it to do with the addition of the spoolgun. There are some times when it would sure be nice however to grab a smaller machine and go help a buddy fix the rack on his truck at his place where we only have 110v power. You'll have to decide if the lower power and portability, offsets the more powerful machine. Overall in general for the home hobbyist, I'd say the combo of power and portability makes the 211 hard to beat and the perfect machine for most, unless you are looking to get serious about some bigger projects or do a bunch of alum. Some days I'd say go with "A" and some days "B" would be better for me.
Reply:I have had a lot of poor luck welding with 110v machines but then I am no expert. it just doesnt seem that they have the umph that a 220v has. So I would consider that especially if you will be welding thick stuff. I wouldnt worry about duty cycle unless you are setting up a fabrication shop. I have NEVER hit the cycle on my 180HD even running at max heat. Its just that you spend 5 times more time setting up and prepping surfaces than you do welding.
Reply:If you want to do heavier plate welding with wire, you might want to get a machine that can burn .045 fluxcore.  The 200-up machines are in that category.  Really, if I were you, I would look for a used Millermatic 251 or 252 or similar sized Lincoln Powermig.  You will have plenty of power to burn bigger wire and plenty of duty cycle to weld thicker/longer weld joints, as well as more power to weld thicker aluminum with the spool gun.  The bigger machines can dial down just as low as the smaller ones, but you can't use amps you didn't buy if you go with a smaller machine.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Unless you're doing production welding, I wouldn't worry about duty cycle very much.  From your description, it's hard to see where the really thick plate is going to come from.  In your shoes, I think I'd save some money and get a 180.  I traded up to the 211 from a Hobart 140.  I still haven't had any jobs with it that have needed the 220v.  Even in automotive work, I don't see working on very much steel thicker than 3/8".  But I guess it depends on the kind of work you do.  I'm a hobbyist.  I would be just fine if I'd kept the 140, although I think the 211 is a great machine.Last edited by Jack Olsen; 10-21-2010 at 05:13 PM.Jack OlsenMy garage website
Reply:Originally Posted by Country1Why does the 211 seem so much more popular?Is it because of the portability or is it because it's at the top of the hobbyist category and the 212 is at the bottom of the pro category?...
Reply:Thanks guys. A lot of good info. I understand things better now. Guess I'll do a little more research on 220v machines. I really want a Miller though.Thanks again for the advice!
Reply:Ok, so I've been looking at the 252 and it looks impressive, but with another $600 price jump and an even more expensive spool gun for aluminum ($1200.....) Besides price, the only draw back I see for the 252 is the lack of Auto-Set. This feature sounds pretty valuable in my situation. Very little MIG experience and once I get a machine, there will be long periods of no use. So the Auto-Set feature sounds like a real plus for me....Think I might be considering the 211 more at this point. Question on something I came across though... How often do you have to replace mechanical output contactors and is that a big deal? The 212 has a solid state set up so you don't have to replace, but the 211 has the mechanical type it seems.... Is this a very big plus or minus?
Reply:I will assume that my Millermatic 175 has the same contactor as the 180 and 211, since the machines are very similar and share a few other parts.  Mine is a 2004/5 model and hasn't had any problems with the contactor.  I don't hear of others with these machines having contactor problems either and they are quite a popular line of small migs.  I wouldn't worry about the contactor in the 211.For what it's worth, the Spoolmatic 30A can be had new for about, or maybe just under, $1000 if you shop around.  The Spoolmatic 15A is a hundred or 2 cheaper, same gun just has 15' instead of 30' whip.  Used, they go from $400-800, on average.  They have been made for quite a few years, so there are plenty of older ones out there.  They're tough and reliable guns that work great and adapt to many different machines.  They're definately worth the investment over a cheapie.The Auto Set feature is more of a gimmick, in my book.  With only 2 basic controls on a mig, volts and wire speed, it's not rocket science to set the thing up.   Most wire manufacturers have operating parameters published for their wires for easy customer use.  Most modern migs, including the 252, have setup charts available.  The 252, and most of Miller's other migs too, has a volt/wfs chart pasted right to the inside of the wire cabinet door that covers most of the basic wires you might use in the machine.  If you want to use the wire manufacturer's volt/wfs numbers, the 252 has digital meters that read in volts and inches per minute, so you can set it to the wire mfg'rs numbers and adjust from there.  We didn't have the luxury of Auto Set or door charts when I was learning to mig weld.  We didn't have meters that told us what we were setting either.  We experimented on scrap and set the machine by sound and sight.  I think you'll find that most of the guys here who have been around mig awhile will agree that Auto Set 'is for pansies', so to speak.  Not to be offensive or anything.  The Auto Set also only works with solid wire and 75/25 gas.  Try to use it with fluxcore, dual shield, co2 or any other gas mix with solid wire, or with stainless or aluminum, and it's useless.  You'll need to develop setup skills on your own anyways.  I don't see the value in Auto Set, except for just the very first early learning stage, if you're alone and don't have anyone to give you a hand at it.  Fortunately, the auto set gimmick can be turned off and the machine set in normal volts and wire speed like any other mig. Price considerations not withstanding, if you buy that MM252, you'll be able to do just about anything you will ever want to do with a 250 amp shop mig, excepting pulsed spray or running extra thick fluxcore wires.  It's not likely you'll be itching to change out the machine in the future, your only limitation with it will be your own skill/experience/knowlege.  By contrast, it's pretty easy to outgrow a 211.  Nothing against the 211 at all, I like them, they're great for what they are, but there's alot they aren't.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:A lot of good info in that post, thanks.The 252 would do anything I'd ever want to do. However, I'm still hung up on the auto-set feature. I defiantly can see your and other professional welders 'is for pansies' out look. I'm not a professional welder though and I don't see myself using a welder enough to become "really good" with it. I just don't have enough projects and/or time to log enough welding hours to get to that point. That's where I am now with my stick welder. I can weld and it will hold, but it ain't too pretty. If I spend a few hours welding it kind of comes back to me and I get better, but that big of a project is rare for me. I'm usually just doing a quick repair type weld on something. The whole reason I'm looking at MIGs is to get a better/easier weld the few times I do need to weld and to be able to work on thiner/smaller parts without burn throughs. Now maybe if I get a MIG and it's a lot easier than stick, I'll find more projects to do, but I'd still probably only be welding 10 day's out of the year with everything else I've got going on.... Down the road that might change though...Given the above, I figured the Auto-Set deal would give me a higher quality weld with less aggravation.
Reply:Seems pretty simple though without auto-set to dial in the parameters with the chart. So what does the auto-set really do for you? Just take the chart out of the set up procedure? How much adjusting do you do after selecting the parameters from the chart? Is it usually very close to perfect? I just remember reading a post by a guy with a 211 that said he tried manual and auto-set on the same piece of work and auto-set always gave him better results....
Reply:The charts are usually reasonably close, a little on the cold side for me.  They're based on a horizontal fillet weld with a certain wire type and gas.  If you're running a different gas, wire, position or joint type, the adjustment is going to be different.  Once you can recognize when you need more or less wire or more or less voltage, it's easy to make the adjustments.  It just takes practice and experimenting.  Once you find settings you like for certain applications, you can write them down so you don't have to remember next time.  Still might need minor adjustment even then, but at least you're close.  It's been over a year since my friend and I fooled around with the auto set on his 211.  The way I remember it, we dialed in the material thickness and wire size with one dial that has 2 scales, one for each wire size.  That adjustment is either the wire speed or the voltage, not sure which.  Then the machine set the other adjustment itself to match what we dialed, based on some pre-determined volt/wfs relationship the machine has been programmed with for that wire size and material thickness value we set.Now, we didn't have any success with it because we did not know at that time that the feature only worked with solid wire and 75/25 gas.  We tried to use it with fluxcore and it wouldn't weld for carp.  Soon as we set it to manual and dialed our own settings, it welded very nice.  I never found out if it would have welded nice with the right wire and gas or not.  I imagine it would weld okay.  I think he only uses it with fluxcore.Problem with this auto set is, you're locked into that setting.  If you need to change the volt/wfs relationship, you can't.  All you can do is change the overall up down level, which changes both the voltage and wire speed at the same time.  The ratio of one to the other is still going to remain the same.  That's the problem I saw with it that day.  The only way you can change the ratio of one to the other is if you turn off the auto set feature and do it manually, which is what we did. Using the chart will get you close enough the first time and you can tune it from there.  I don't see the need for auto set when there's a chart right there that accomplishes the same thing.  Alls you have to do is read the chart, set 2 dials to the prescribed locations and you've done the same exact thing the auto set would have done for you.  As you use the machine more and get used to how it welds and how it sets for things you weld on regularly, you will remember those dial positions and naturally go to them when needed.   All it takes is some time with it.  If you're going to spend a few hundred bucks on the thing, you may as well spend time having fun with it too.  Otherwise, don't waste money on the machine and when you need something welded, pay someone else who does spend time welding and has developed the skill, to weld it for you.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Have you purchased a welder yet?I just recently purchased a MM212. I actually was dead set on the 211. I went in to buy the machine and starting talking to a Miller Rep. He told me that there wasn't enough of a differrence in the two for a hobbyist. Then we started talking about the aluminum part of the welder. He told me that the 211 will do light AL fabrication. However, if you ever decide to build a trailer or ramps or any structural component, the 211 doesn't have the power to weld with the 5000 series wire which is what is used to do structural with AL. That is why I jumped to the 212. I was looking at buying the 211 and spoolgun at the same time. Now I have to save money to buy the spoolgun, but in the end I believe the welder will serve it's purpose well. With that said, I am a noob at welding. I have welded just this is my first machine. I may have been misinformed and if the info I have passed on is wrong please let me know so I can correct it.Thanks Luke
Reply:Hey Luke, thanks for the post!No, I haven't purchased yet. The MIG is going to be a X-mass present so I have a little time until I pull the trigger. In fact, I've put it on the back burner for now, or at least until Dec. gets here.I really appreciate the info in your post. Yeah, if I do get into aluminum, it will be the structural type of fabricating. So you've helped me out there. I need to go down to our local Arcet shop and talk to one of the guys before I decided, but right now, I'm thinking MM 212 or maybe 252. I've decided against the 211 at this point. I just think it's too light duty. I might not weld frequently, but most time when I do weld it's on bigger stuff and all day long at least. I had a couple projects in mind when I started thinking about trading up to a MIG and since then, I've come up with a few more. Kinda like "You know, if I had that MIG I could.............."
Reply:Haha. Yeah I just broke mine in this week. My dad is finding stuff for me to do now. Glad I could help.Luke
Reply:So, after a lot of thinking, I've decided on the MM 252... I think in the long run it will be worth the extra investment and I'll never feel like I settled on a lesser machine. I'm looking forward to getting it. All ready have jobs backing up. Just little things I've wanted  to do or fix over the years, but didn't feel like tackling with the buzz box. Thanks to everyone that posted here and helped me come to this decision!Rick
Reply:Great!  I'm sure you'll love it once you get it!MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:This is the recent current(winter) sale flyer for Acklands Grainger here in Canada, I have seen the 252 listed as high as $4,330.One good look at the drive rollers on this machine and you know that it is down for some serious business.Not sure what the difference is between the two machines in the add.The machine also is available at $102.00 a month. Attached Images
Reply:The shop next door has an older Miller DVI and use it much harder than I 'spect Miller intended, it still has a very nice arc.As for the autoset, it doesn't replace the need to understand wire feed speed (amps) and volts. I can't think of anyone I know that doesn't make some adjustment when they are using a mig with synergic mig function (the more advanced adaptive synergics are better but still often need the volts tweaked when WFS changes).Matt
Reply:Originally Posted by pistolnoonThis is the recent current(winter) sale flyer for Acklands Grainger here in Canada, I have seen the 252 listed as high as $4,330.One good look at the drive rollers on this machine and you know that it is down for some serious business.Not sure what the difference is between the two machines in the add.The machine also is available at $102.00 a month.Cyberweld has it for $2118. I tried dealing with my local welding supply house, but he wouldn't come any lower than $2450... I want to buy local, but not if I have to pay that much more... The guy was nice enough about it, but he just didn't want to deal.
Reply:I found myself in your shoes and was looking hard at the MM252 or the Lincoln 255.  After LOTS of research I decided to purchase a HTP Mig 2400.  (Desert Rider is apparently a fan of the HTP Mig 200 which is a MM212/PM216 size machine.He's written some very positive things about his HTP.)  The 2400 is basically the same size machine as the 252/255 but is tapped as opposed to a digital machine.  With 24 taps, it's pretty close to infinite control!  For $1350 I'm willing to get used to the taps instead of just dialing in a particular voltage.  Granted, I had to pay shipping ($100) and if something breaks I'll have to work with the tech guy over the phone to figure the problem out, but I know how to drive a V - O meter.  My understanding is they'll overnight the parts to me, which should be as quick or quicker than taking it to the LWS and having them send it out.  Everything I read about the machine was positive as well as all I read about HTP's customer service.  I'm satisfied with my purchase and don't think I'll outgrow it in the near term.  4 wheel wire drive, burn back control, pre and post flow, volt/amp meter, and an upgrade to the Tweco #2 gun at 15' length.  I figure I saved about $700.  I'm still getting used to the whole set-up, but have been using the LE 255 and a Miller XTP 304 with 22A wire feeder in the welding class I've been taking.  Using the same .035 solid wire, this machine has plenty of power!  Whatever you decide, I'm sure you'll  enjoy your purchase!Tracker401
Reply:Just do what I didI bought a MM252 and a MM211Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1Just do what I didI bought a MM252 and a MM211
Reply:Originally Posted by Tracker401Desert Rider is apparently a fan of the HTP Mig 200 which is a MM212/PM216 size machine.He's written some very positive things about his HTP.