TIG cert ???'s

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Hey everyone,  I was hoping you could point me in a direction, Last year I went and took welding classes at a local tech school thinking I would get certified (based on their description, lying sob's) half way through, I found out it was BS, I get a certificate of completion.. Anyway, I've been welding for a while, mostly MIG, but when I picked up TIG I liked it A LOT.. it's a constant challenge for me.. So I decided to start a small business making aluminum fuel cells, radiator over flow tanks, and other misc things mainly for drag racing applications.. I want to get a TIG cert basically so I can cover my *** if a tank was to fail, but I don't know what to get! there are so many certs out there it's a little confusing.. The main joints I weld are corners, with some T joints mixed in here and there.  Also, do I have to go to a test facility, or can I weld it at home and bring it to them? I'm not sure how the testing process works..www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Originally Posted by speedfreak87Hey everyone,  I was hoping you could point me in a direction, Last year I went and took welding classes at a local tech school thinking I would get certified (based on their description, lying sob's) half way through, I found out it was BS, I get a certificate of completion.. Anyway, I've been welding for a while, mostly MIG, but when I picked up TIG I liked it A LOT.. it's a constant challenge for me.. So I decided to start a small business making aluminum fuel cells, radiator over flow tanks, and other misc things mainly for drag racing applications.. I want to get a TIG cert basically so I can cover my *** if a tank was to fail, but I don't know what to get! there are so many certs out there it's a little confusing.. The main joints I weld are corners, with some T joints mixed in here and there.  Also, do I have to go to a test facility, or can I weld it at home and bring it to them? I'm not sure how the testing process works..
Reply:for me, it's a little extra insurance.And working for someone at this time isn't happening.. no jobs in my area..  It's more or less a side business then a full time gig.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:If you're running the business out of your home, you can get a $1 million rider (umbrella) on your homeowners for not too much money.That being said, if you let me know the specifics of the materials (alloy and thickness) and process (shielding gas, amperage, tungsten type, etc), I'll get you the paperwork and the place to send the coupons for testing.  Pulling and bending coupons will typically run you between $400-$500 and take a couple of weeks.  I don't do the testing, but I have a place locally I send it to.Your choices in paperwork (as I see it, in order of preference) are as follows:ASME Section IX (also covers API 650, 620, etc.)AWS D1.2SAE AMS2685For you and anyone else on this board, I can provide the necessary forms for just about any welding procedure free of charge.  I know it is hard enough to make it in this business with all of the hurdles currently in place, and paperwork shouldn't stand in the way.Glossary:ASME - American Society of Mechanical EngineersSection IX - Welding qualification for pressure vessels, piping, nuclear vessels, etc.API - American Petroleum InstituteAWS - American Welding SocietySAE - Society of Automotive Engineers
Reply:You getting "certified" won't do much in protecting you. Your lacking of experience and the business being not properly licensed bonded and insured would be the first items to correct if needed. That being said the price quotes for the testing listed in post #4 are reasonable.(if it includes a wet stamp CWI signature)But the WPS and WQR just show that on XX/XX/XXXX date you welded well. Making sure the design of the "fuel cell" is in compliance to the governing regulations, that the overflow can withstand the applied pressures, these are the real concerns you should be concerning your self with, a paper saying you welded well on some date in the past is not going to do much to sway a court that you know how to design and build life safety items.
Reply:Thanks for the info. it clarifies that up for me a little about even getting a cert.. I may do it just to put on my resume.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Originally Posted by Fat BastardYou getting "certified" won't do much in protecting you. Your lacking of experience and the business being not properly licensed bonded and insured would be the first items to correct if needed. That being said the price quotes for the testing listed in post #4 are reasonable.(if it includes a wet stamp CWI signature)But the WPS and WQR just show that on XX/XX/XXXX date you welded well. Making sure the design of the "fuel cell" is in compliance to the governing regulations, that the overflow can withstand the applied pressures, these are the real concerns you should be concerning your self with, a paper saying you welded well on some date in the past is not going to do much to sway a court that you know how to design and build life safety items.
Reply:You're getting some excellent advice here from members.It may be less expensive to go to a testing laboratory and get your WPQ test qualified to their established WPS/PQR rather than having to qualify a procedure yourself.Besides obtaining bonding, you should submit your fuel cell design to a registered PE and pay for the calculations of the fabricated vessel.  May even need to be to a DOT standard, ask the PE.Hope this helps,Robert P.QA Manager
Reply:Robert P.:It was my understanding from reading this that the fuel cells would be used on the strip only.  If that is the case, DOT certification of the design or construction wouldn't be necessary (unless the track or class requires it).In my experience, not holding the PQR yourself is problematic.  If you hold it yourself, you are able to qualify other welders or positions in house (with the appropriate bend test jig) and save money vs having to send out every test.  This is standard procedure for a lot of shops in my area.I do like the idea of PE stamped designs.  If necessary for speedfreak87 or anyone else, I would be willing to review any designs (for a nominal fee) and stamp the drawings.  Currently, I am licensed in Kentucky only, but that doesn't matter for most applications.If you ever need to "ask the PE," I am here.
Reply:Thanks Guys, I have already built one cell for my buddy, pressure tested it before giving it to him, no leaks and it didn't break, I'm pretty confident in my welds, and would never send anything out that is crap.. things happen I know, but I will pressure test everything I make.. The fuel cells require a vent fitting so they don't build up much pressure if anything at all, plus they have foam baffling in them. The over flow and expansion tanks are my main concern, I'm bilding one for my father right now, and I'm going to build one just for testing purposes.. His car has 16psi in the coolant system, other companies make their stuff from 1/8" 3003H14 aluminum.. (for expansion/overflow tanks) Minimum on the fuel cells are 1/8" 5052H32 aluminum.. If someone wants something out of 6061T6, I would make something out of that also.. nothing less then 1/8".I have done tons of research in the field, so I have pretty good knowledge on what materials to use, If i have to send something out to get tested i would I don't have a problem with that, but I can pretty much do any pressure test at my house. I'm not looking to get rich, just like to weld and I like racing so I figured I could combine the two eventually getting a shop, but for now it's out of the garage.. I do appreciate all the help you guys are giving my though.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Originally Posted by WHughesThis will be the second thing this year that Fat Bastard and I agree on.
Reply:I dont recall, I think it was under the "other stuff" category.UA Local 598
Reply:Like others said you should get bonded for this endeavor if you want to make things for people that are outside of your friend circle. The other thing you should do is set up some kind of business weather it be an LLC, S-corp or whatever you think is appropriate. The point in doing so is that when one of your tanks fails they come after your business and not your home or family.
Reply:I'll probably make it an LLC, but how do I get bonded?www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:I am a complete novice welder, but I do know a few things about trying to get a small business running out of the house.  Be careful - there are several things that can bite you.First off, a 1 million dollar umbrella policy will not cover you if you are running a business, licensed or not.  That's straight from my insurance agent.  Umbrella policies are extra piece of mind for slip and falls on your sidewalk, dog bites on your property, in some cases they can be tied to vehicles thereby allowing you to reduce some areas of your vehicle coverage but still be protected, but at a lower rate.  In my circle of friends/family, I'm the guy everyone brings there stuff to when it stops running.  I have been customizing street bikes and building roadrace motorcycle conversions for years, it's what I do for fun.  After a while so many people were bringing me things to fix, or things to modify (hey, can you put this exhaust on for me, etc) that I started to think about doing it as a side business.  For me, the downsides were too high after I started looking into it.  For me specifically, if you work on vehicles you need what's called "garage keeper's insurance".  It is ridiculously expensive, in my area anyway.  The other issue is working out of a garage on your residence.  If you insure it, and your business properly, it is now a commercial structure.  This may or may not be legal where you live.  It can also change your homeowners coverage drastically, because now the garage is not part of the home, but a business.  Things get tricky if personal property is stored in your now commercial property, and it gets stolen, damaged, etc.  For me it was a total nightmare of possibilities, but I'm the worrysome type.    Now this was just my experience and things certainly may be much different for you, or your situation.  Thousands of people run home based businesses, so it's obviously do-able.  For me, for the kind of coverage I needed to feel safe, and to do everything by the book, it just wasn't possible.  It was if I wanted to rent or buy a small piece of commercial property and run a business out of there, but I wasn't interested in that level of financial or time commitment.-- One final thing to consider -  if you do go through with it, be VERY VERY careful with 'business' money.  Several people I know have small businesses and just write themselves checks or even take money straight out of the business account.  I believe (but don't know for sure) that a Sole Proprietorship is the only time that is acceptable.  If you do that in other situations, you have just co-mingled personal and business funds... which means you have now pierced the corporate veil.  Meaning, if you get sued they can come after you personally, even if you have incorporated the business.  One time is all it takes.  If they really come after you, it can be considered theft, even though it's your business!I had a buddy of mine who owns a pretty sucsessful electrical business tell me how his accountant nearly came unglued after he made some mistakes like this early on.  Not trying to dissuade you, just pointing out that REAL protection from liability is nowhere near as easy as getting one of those $100 online LLC programs.  Hire an accountant, tell him exactly what you want to do, and take his advice.Last edited by Wisco; 12-21-2010 at 02:05 PM.