Vertical up - Millermatic 252

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Looking for the voice of experience here. I have been attempting to do vertical up with my Millermatic 252, argon/co2 mix 75/25, 1/4 inch plate, setting on the machine (recommended by miller card) 21 volts, wire feed at 375, wire is .035 E70 6S this produces a terrible weld. I backed up the wire feed as far back at 200 and it still doesn't cooperate. My next step is to start backing off on the voltage but am afraid that would affect penetration. any sugestion, I will take some photo's in the near future and post them if I can figure out how.Guy_48Last edited by Guy_48; 02-14-2008 at 07:03 PM.Reason: forgotten item
Reply:better box it up and give it to me, sounds like the machine is on its way out
Reply:dude, i've had the same problem ever since i started welding almost 18 yrs ago. i've had numerous people try to explain the tricks of doing it, but no luck. imo, find somebody to physically show you how , or, you may wind up like me. every time someone says "vertical up is easy, you just build a shelf with the metal and watch the edges, etc." my blood pressure skyrockets. its not as easy as it sounds, but , not impossible.
Reply:Vertical up is a piece of cake. I've used a millermatic 251 and 250 a lot for all positions. I would say back your voltage down to 19.5 and your wire down more to like 210 jump from side to side moving quickly across the middle. It just takes lots of practice. Those setting should produce fine penetration. Vertical up gives the best penetration out of any position because your putting a hot filler into an already liquid puddle. I'll try to run some tomorow and post pictures for you. --Gol'
Reply:With a Mig tie in is more of a concern than penetration. It's a low penetration process. Like he said above when going uphill work side to side concentrating on the edges and passing quickly across the middle. That setting sounds awful hot for uphill, and the hotter you get the less control you have. Those are the upper limits of the recommended range for .030 ER70-S6. I can run 7018 uphill way hot, but I still have to turn down running the mig up.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:What GO1LUM said! You have to start practicing at lower settings to get the rhythm of it. I would even go as low as 18 - 19 volts and about 175 ipm range and see what happens. The motion is very similar to running uphill with 7018 if that makes any sense. Start the bead in the root, form a puddle, move to either side after a quick circle and hold, move straight  to the opposite side and hold, etc., etc. .....<Connect the dots. The bead should be wide enough to cover this pattern as you put filler wire in from each side of the bead.   This is only one pattern, you will need to use one that works for you.City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:You are trying to do it WAY TOO HOT.  Try 200 ipm, 17 to18 volts.  Adjust voltage for a smooth arc.  This should be around 135 amps which is plenty for 1/4" vertical up.   Make sure your plate is "fresh ground"  No mill scale or rust.   It doesn't matter which process you are using, once you get vertical up, its easy.For penetration, you can run much lower heat because you are going much slower so you put more heat into the work.  It makes NO difference if its a miller, Lincoln or one of those "other"  units.  Its all the operator.  The instructions above are correct.  Left, pause, right pause, left.........DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I agree with David.  1/4" plate I would run 17 Volts, and 200 IPM with your setup.  Pause on the sides and move quickly across.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Thanks fellows, appreciate the input. I will try and lower the voltage to about 17 and 200 ipm, give it another try. I will let you know outcome, hopefully with photo's.Guy
Reply:Originally Posted by tortisbetter box it up and give it to me, sounds like the machine is on its way out
Reply:As it was explained to me you want to quickly move back and forth as some have already mentioned.  The reason is you spend 2X as much time as in middle as you do the to ends.  So a little pause on the ends makes up for the time difference.  Not sure if that is true to not, but it made sense to me and helped when doing it.Best Times with 434 Naturally Aspirated Vette60 - 1.261/8 -  6.37@ 107.25 MPH 1/4 - 10.08 & 134.9MPH1/4 - 9.60@144MPH
Reply:Here are a few photo's of the before and after guidance from the group. feel free to comment on my welds, I need the practice.Last edited by Guy_48; 02-15-2008 at 09:31 PM.Reason: unable to post photos that were uploadedGuy_48Welding is an art......Millermatic 252Lincoln SP175PlusLincoln 225 AC/DC
Reply:guy,  i don't see any links to your pics.  sorry, i see your edit.
Reply:Originally Posted by Guy_48Looking for the voice of experience here. I have been attempting to do vertical up with my Millermatic 252, argon/co2 mix 75/25, 1/4 inch plate, setting on the machine (recommended by miller card) 21 volts, wire feed at 375, wire is .035 E70 6S this produces a terrible weld. I backed up the wire feed as far back at 200 and it still doesn't cooperate. My next step is to start backing off on the voltage but am afraid that would affect penetration. any sugestion, I will take some photo's in the near future and post them if I can figure out how.Guy_48
Reply:here are more photo's Attached ImagesGuy_48Welding is an art......Millermatic 252Lincoln SP175PlusLincoln 225 AC/DC
Reply:Some nice welds and some cool evacuation system.  I did a few today.  Used the same as you, .035 wire, c/25, 1/4" plate.  Mill scale was ground off.  Wire speed stayed at 200 the whole time.This first one is 17 volts, back and forth weave.  Wire pointed up 15* give or take.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:This was still 17 volts, triangle weave which is what I usually use.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Then 17.5 volts, triangle weave.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:And 18 volts.I let the piece cool between each weld.It looks like you have the heat right or really close.DavidLast edited by David R; 02-15-2008 at 10:47 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:nice welds dave   when you say triangle weave what exactly do you mean? thanks for patience g
Reply:Thanks David, I see you have a hand for vertical up, your weld is very nice and uniform, I find I need to support my right hand with the left to get the steady weaving. I guess practice makes perfect. Now that I am close on the setting, I have a point of reference for all others. My next project will be aluminum, I have a Miller spool gun 30A coming and my bottle of argon is ready to go, wish me luck.Thanks againGuyGuy_48Welding is an art......Millermatic 252Lincoln SP175PlusLincoln 225 AC/DC
Reply:Originally Posted by glarkin64nice welds dave   when you say triangle weave what exactly do you mean? thanks for patience g
Reply:thanks for the info, Never heard of that before
Reply:looks great but david you do this everytime. you need to try and keep your weavse more tight.  because i can cause a rip in the weld at a point like that. your weld at 18 volts towards the top is better but even tighter then that and they will look MUCHO better =]but anyways they look good keep it up.6G zirconium 702 GTAW 2" xxheavy6G P.E.D. carbon steel GTAW 2" xxheavy3G titanium Gr. 2 - Gr. 7 GTAW up to 3/4" 3G 316L stainless GTAW up to 1" 3G carbon steel GTAW up to 1" 3G Hastalloy GTAW up to 3/4"1G tantalum GTAW up to .060"
Reply:From The Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding by Lincoln: Its in da book DavidLast edited by David R; 02-17-2008 at 10:05 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.Originally Posted by welder155looks great but david you do this everytime. you need to try and keep your weavse more tight.  because i can cause a rip in the weld at a point like that. your weld at 18 volts towards the top is better but even tighter then that and they will look MUCHO better =]but anyways they look good keep it up.
Reply:mee too.
Reply:I've been doing this a loooong time and the only time I don't weld with both hands is when it's physically impossible. You will get much better welds that way. Especially when using a weave. I also lean on stuff, hold stuff, wrap myself around stuff, anything to make me steadier. Read oldtimers post on torch cutting under the thread 'a good clean cut' as it applies equally to welding and is one of the best explanations I've ever seen on how to do it. It's the same one I got when he started me on a torch forty years ago (and the same one I give to anyone who wants to know how I do it the way I do), and I don't back up from anyone when it comes to torch work.Regarding your welds. Though it is very hard to tell from a pic it appears you are leaving some undercut. This can be avoided by spending just a touch longer at the outside of your weave. After awhile you will get to where you can see when it is time to move. It also appears you are trying to move up too much on each step. There are many different patters and techniques for this and you will just have to find the one that works for you.  I use more of flattened out U than a V. Really easy to see but incredibly hard to explain. The edges of your bead are what I was referring to as tie in, and again this is hard to explain but very easy to see. I will try anyway. It is when you can see the base metal go liquid on the edge of the bead. If you know how to O/A weld it is so much easier to explain as it is the same thing as you see when the filler flows into the puddle and it spreads out.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Thanks J.R. appreciate every comment. I know am I far from perfect with my welds. I guess every hour spent on it will only make them better.GuyGuy_48Welding is an art......Millermatic 252Lincoln SP175PlusLincoln 225 AC/DC
Reply:where did you get that book?
Reply:Originally Posted by glarkin64where did you get that book?
Reply:they have several, could you give me the name of "the bible" thanks for the info g
Reply:Originally Posted by David RFrom The Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding by Lincoln:  David
Reply:thanks for the info dave