Tig from a stick supply

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Hi all, its been suggested that you could use a stick welder unit with the Tig torch in the attached link with gas from a bottle and regulator, and do scratch starting to commence the welding operation. What do you guys think?http://www.welduk.com/Results1.asp?Category=39ThanksBrian
Reply:i have done it and it works ok in a pinchChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:My dialarc is just a stick welder with a hf unit.  If I leave the HF off, it's just a scratch start tig welder.  Nothing fancy, but it works well enough for me.  I have been eyeing a new ac/dc inverter, but haven't acted yet.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:That is a true tig but you lose the adjustability a regular tig with remote offers.DennisThermal Arc 185-TSWMillermatic Challenger 172VictorO/AAtlas Craftsman 12 by 24 LatheEsab PCM-875Wholesalem Tool Mill-Drill
Reply:you have a foot control with this set-up ????
Reply:Yes you can and it works well, but it does tend to sort the men out from the boy's. ie: no HF etc, but then you don't need any of that junk anyway. Stephen
Reply:This was the standard in construction until about 2 years ago in stainless piping or when you had to tig the root in carbon pipe. The only problem was contaminating the tungsten when scratch starting. We used the flip start where you hold the tungsten off your work and flip the filler between it to start the arc.    Then Miller came out with the lift start on the TrailBlazer. I sure would hate to go back to the flip start after using the lift start for about 2 years.
Reply:Wirehunt (Stephen), you note a foot control could be used, can you explain how this could be done? Will it mean rewiring the control on the stich unit?Brian
Reply:Read again Brian I didn't say anything about foot control Stephen
Reply:Hey Brian, Check Your Machine To Make Sure It's Cc (constant Current) Output. Then Welding Low Carbon & Ss Is No Problem. Tig Welding In The Dc Mode Is Very Forgiving, The Care Must Be In The Torch To Work Place Distance. Keep It Steady And Watch The Puddle. Shouldn't Have Any Probs. The Foot Petal Would Be Nice, For Thinner Materials. Contamination In The Dc Mode Is Negligable Because Of The Lower Settings.
Reply:Sorry Wirehunt (Stephen), thought your comment "Yes you can" following Comp,s foot control question ment you could use a control. Sorry I picked it up wrongBrian
Reply:I wired a foot control into my dialarc (miller has a kit that you do this with, but you are really paying for the instructions...the parts are cheap), but some stick welders use a tapped transformer (e.g., the lincoln tombstones)...with a tapped transformer, the foot control is out of the question, at least I think it is.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:I've seen many use a stick welder in DC polarity scratch starting on carbon & SS welding, works fine, no aluminum, just be aware of the duty cycle on the unit.On certain AC/DC stick welders, you can add on a high freq module that will allow you to run a foot or hand remote.
Reply:so for someone that is in the market for a used buzz box and would like the option of setting up a tig unit from the buzz sometime in the future, an ac/dc unit is necessary?  I guess i'm not gettin the connection between the "dc" and tig mod part of this set-up.sorry to butt-in, just tryin to keep the thread going for all us un-informed people.  thanks, good topic.
Reply:Probably ac/dc is the best.  If you do only ac, you will have to also add a high freq box to keep the arc going.  My dialarc is essentially an industrial ac/dc buzz box (just much bulkier and with continuous amp control).  You can do dc tig with just the addition of the torch, connectors and argon...with scratch start.  This will get you doing lots of stuff.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:You guys who can scratch start tig , well my hat is off to you. I can't do THAT for beans. I would wreck the tungsten every time. Thank GOD for hi-freq. I don't have the guts to suggest to anyone to scratch start. BABYDADDY: IF you're wondering about d c ; you have to have it to weld just about EVERYTHING , except ALUMINUM , which requires A C & hi freq: for stabilization of the ARC . ( please excuse me ,if you knew this already )
Reply:There is a website that shows how to use a piezo thingie from a gas grill to provide the gap jump.  That might be a cheap way around HF starts.  I just cant find the site.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:Originally Posted by Roy HodgesBABYDADDY: IF you're wondering about d c ; you have to have it to weld just about EVERYTHING , except ALUMINUM , which requires A C & hi freq: for stabilization of the ARC . ( please excuse me ,if you knew this already )
Reply:Originally Posted by babydaddyRoy, no excusing necessary.  I'm not an electrical science type of guy so any info ya'll give is excellent.  in fact, if ya'll could "dumb it down" a little that'd help even more .  thanks for the info.
Reply:So do you know how DC works?StephenI'd rather be hunting........USE ENOUGH HEAT.......Drifting around Aussie welding more pipe up, for something different.....wanting to get home.
Reply:wirehunt, yeah, it works pretty good.
Reply:Originally Posted by wirehuntSo do you know how DC works?Stephen
Reply:If you had a high -frequency box(add  on) , then you could ,i guess weld tig -BUT !  Aluminum  ONLY (maybe Magnesium too) , but all other metals that i am aware of , require  direct current to tig , & also weld with other processes. (of course steel can be welded (but not great ) with A C & certain ac type stick electrodes. ) Why are these RULES  so rigid ? Maybe they are like WOMEN , nobody knows . You just gotta live with  'em.
Reply:you can ac tig steel also, it just won't hold the arc without the HF unit.  DC current is just directional (ac is sorta not or is bi-directional) and once the arc is established using dc, electrons keep flowing and the arc keeps going (until you get too far away with the torch and extinguish the arc or turn the amps down too low).You can dc tig aluminum, but it requires a slightly different method of attack (different gas, helium, and it's hotter, and faster...I haven't done it yet, but I have a tank of helium and am waiting for a project to show up.)  Tig uses a constant current welder, and any CC welder (as far as I know) can be converted to a tig machine, at least in some limited way...some make better tig units, some worse, depending on other machine features like the availability of remote amp control, HF, etc.Mig machines are DC, but use a different type of current (constant voltage).  These are NOT used for tig.  The reason is still somewhat misterious to me, but I think it has something to do with the fact that mig welders are made to adjust the current based on the wire's gap with the work piece in order to keep a nice steady flow of heat and wire.  I think this feature makes amp/heat control a problem for tigging.  As a side note, I have a cv/cc feeder that I use sometimes with cc and sometimes with cv, but if I ever have the switch in the wrong position (switched to cv on a cc machine), the wire feeds erratically (burnback and stubbing almost at the same time) and it's really hard to get a decent weld...until I flip the switch.This is my current understanding of the state of things, but I am willing to change it if someone shows up with a better story...Last edited by smithboy; 04-27-2006 at 01:56 PM.Smithboy...if it ain't broke, you ain't tryin'.
Reply:bdad,In direct current (DC) TIG with the electrode negative and the work positive (DCEN), electrons travel from the tungsten, through the arc, to the work.  It is largely the impact of these electrons that produces heat and melts the work.  The arc is also composed of charged gas particles and charged metal vapor particles (ions) that make up the arc plasma.  A 3/32" tungsten can handle up to about 250 amps on DCEN without melting.If you reverse the leads, and have the electrode positive (DCEP), the tungsten is now receiving the impact of electrons and is being heated.A 3/32" tungsten can only handle up to about 30 amps on DCEP without melting.In DCEP, oxides on the surface of the work tend to be removed, I forget if this is due to electrons leaving surface or positive ions impacting surface, but anyway it happens.  This is the "CLEANING ACTION" you get during AC welding.In alternating current (AC) TIG the direction of electron flow (polarity) changes from electrode negative to electrode positive.  Remember the old fashioned sine wave, this is what you get out of a Lincoln AC 225 transformer welder, the current climbs to a peak positive value, then drops though zero and descends to a peak negative value, 60 times per second (hertz).  So when the polarity changes, the current goes to zero for an instant and the arc can not be established or maintained.  High frequency (HF) imposed on top of the primary welding current keeps the gap between the electrode and the work electrically charged (ionized) during AC and allows the arc to be maintained.  Similar to the HF AC TIG scenario, in shielded metal arc welding (SMAW) a 6010 electrode cannot be run on AC, but a 6011 electrode, similar to 6010 but with the addition of potassium in the coating formulation to provide a charged particle in the arc gap, is designed to run on AC.Many variations of AC welding power supplies are available, new inverters have adjustable frequency, not just 60 Hz like the Lincoln 225.  Also, many welders have adjustable AC balance, where the duration of electrode negative and electrode positive can be changed to get more or less cleaning action, and more or less penetration.The cleaning action of electrode positive is very helpful to welding aluminum, but guess what, you can weld weld aluminum with DCEN TIG and you can weld steel and other metals with AC TIG.Hope this helps, its more or less all true, alot of details are missing I'm sure.I think you summed it up pretty well.DennisThermal Arc 185-TSWMillermatic Challenger 172VictorO/AAtlas Craftsman 12 by 24 LatheEsab PCM-875Wholesalem Tool Mill-Drill
Reply:Originally Posted by Tailshaft56I think you summed it up pretty well.