Train knuckle on a Cat 924G Loader

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Yes you read the title right.  The place that I work does a fair amount of rail movement in our yard.  We have a locomotive and it does great.  The problem is that the locomotive was state of art in the '40 so it does break down from time to time and it isn't always an easy fix for us maintenance guys.  Well the boss man got a quick release knuckle that they want to be able to use with our payloader.  I know this is going to strike up issues in a lot of your minds, but they want it one way or another.  What I have started to do is make everything so it will hook up to the quick attach just like a bucket or pallet forks.  I was just wondering if anyone has made any of these and have any input.  Thanks for any help.  I will try to get some pictures on monday of what I have going so far.  Matthew
Reply:I would make up a "jig" that mounts the knuckle to the bucket, If the loader has a quick tach even better. Basically mount the knuckle to a plate then go from there.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:I was just wondering if anyone has made any of these and have any input
Reply:I have seen a few and the hitch is on the back of the loader.  It only has to be one height.  Then you can fill the bucket for traction.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Good idea and I'm sure everyone has thought of this, but just remember that little 924 will be trying to stop a minimum of 20 tons. So don't get up too much speed. A lot of people have been hurt or killed moving rail cars w/ things other than a locomotive. Maybe an air compressor integral w/ the attachment and brake control valve in loader cab so car brakes can be used.                                     MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:Just a quick question.Other than common sense and s**thouse luck, what prevents a person from pushing or pulling the car off the track, or is it not possable because of the weight?.....Mike
Reply:I just noticed the loader model is in your title dohhh.Here's three drawings that I've done if they're any help, as I said the formatting is a bit funky as once I had them made I stopped updating the drawing....Mike Attached ImagesJCB Quick Hitch 37631a.pdf (37.0 KB, 266 views)Quick hitch for Cat 950  2.pdf (125.4 KB, 170 views)Quick hitch for Clark-Michigan .pdf (81.0 KB, 87 views)
Reply:Thanks I will take a look at those drawings.   What I am making is an attachment that will hook to the quick attach on the Cat.  I already have the knuckle sitting on the floor in the shop.  I plan on boxing around the back of the knuckle with a large pin going vertically with a little play from side to side so you have a little give while pushing the car.  Thanks for the help guys.  Matthew
Reply:This is not something that is going to be used a lot.  It is just for when our loco is down and we have cars in the yard that need moved short distances.  I will be sure to stress to everyone not to take the cars down the "hill" with the little cat...   Matthew
Reply:Back when I used to drive, I was in this plant where they moved the cars by hand.The cars were at a loading dock inside the building, and a guy would put some sort of curved dog on the track ahead of the car(clamped to track, with half circle that matched rail car wheel) to keep it from getting away, then he used a lever thing that grabbed the track while pushing against the wheel.  It actually moved pretty easy.  I guess the track was absolutely level in that area.  It's really amazing how little friction there is with steel on steel."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Farmersamm, I think I've seen those devices in an older McMaster-Carr catalog.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2Farmersamm, I think I've seen those devices in an older McMaster-Carr catalog.
Reply:We actually have a few of those at work.  But you know how much people these days love manual labor.  Actually I had to replace a handle on one a while back because we have a big 'ol boy that don't mind using them.  You are right, they do move it very well, I was supprised after I fixed the handle I had to try it out.  Matthew
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammIt's really amazing how little friction there is with steel on steel.
Reply:What's the weight on one of those couplers?  They look really heavy from what I've seen.It sounds like a challenging job, but not a whole lot of fun.  Then when the loader guy tears it up..........  who gets blamed"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Johnsonmopar - Sounds interesting, can't wait to see it.A couple (good one huh?) things comes to mind: It's really difficult to accurately follow something like a drawbar with frame articulating steering, mostly because just a touch of the steering wheel changes track (I did it again) so much. I don't know how much lateral movement a car's coupler has, but I wonder if the loader side should be quite free also. Something to think through. Then... How about height control? Can the operator see the connection from his seat? Does the loader drive over a surfaced yard or ties? How near do the tires straddle the rails? How about switch gear clearance?You probably have thought it all through, just thought I'd throw it out here.Get this modern convenience finished, and they'll probably junk the donkey next time it breaks down!Good Luck
Reply:I plan on having the knuckle being able to swing 4" to each side.  I am not very woried about the height.  You will be able to see evetything very well, so you will be able to correct any height issues.  As for a driving surface.  Most of the movement should be on areas that it is paved around the tracks.  It should mostly be used to push a hopper car over the pit or push a oil car onto the scale to be weighed in.  ----Samm I am not for sure how much the kunukle weighs.  I will find out on monday.  I know the thing is not very light at all.  And come on the challenging jobs are the fun ones right?!?  Matthew
Reply:The tool for moving cars by hand is called a carmover (not to be confused with the powered machine called a carmover)The knuckle (the part that actually grabs) weighs about 40# (type E). the rest of the coupler depends on the particular type. Lighter weight (e64) locomotive couplers weigh in hte neighborhood of 500#. These are usually mounted to the machine frame, in large part to get the swing point as close to the axle as possible, with a fairly long shank to allow a lot of free swing. Much more side motion at the mount when mounted on the lift arms, even for small excursions of the steering. It also reduces the chance of seperation. If the heights mismatch by much (about half knuckle height.... about 5" for an E) or the angles mismatch (about 5 deg or so is the limit, IIRC), then they tend to seperate very easily. It is easier to keep within parameter mounting to the machine frame. You also don't want to set up a situation where lift can be put on the coupler of the railcar. This easily leads to derailment (or seperation of the body from the truck).
Reply:Ok I guess I am not up to speed on all of the lingo.  I have the whole coupler with the long shank on it.  I may rethink it and allow for more side to side motion on the coupler so I don't cause any issues there.  Thanks again for all of the help guys.  Matthew
Reply:why not just use a 1/2" cable attached to a pintle on the CAT to pull it one way or another.  A simple lever could be connected to release the cable if it starts to get away from you.Grain elevators use a regular farm tractor to move cars all the time.  They just hook a cable to the car & the tracter drawbar & move it................ slowly.  Slow enough they can get off the tractor & unhook the cable if the car starts to roll way.  Then they can reposition the tractor & slow the car down pulling the opposite direction.MarkI haven't always been a nurse........Craftsman 12"x36" LatheEnco G-30B MillHobart Handler 175Lincoln WeldandPower 225 AC/DC G-7 CV/CCAdd a Foot Pedal to a Harbor Freight Chicago Electric 165A DC TIG PapaLion's Gate Build
Reply:Well then I would not have a fun project  and a lot of good welding to do....  Really I don't know.  That is how we have done it before ...or we would just push on the knuckle on the car.  They want this so I make this...  Isn't that how it works?  Matthew
Reply:Here are some pictures of what I am making.  You are looking at the end that to eye of the train knuckle is going to hook to.  It is a 2 7/16 shaft with bushing at both ends.  I am not all the way done but got a chance to work on it a bit today.  I also put in a picture of my welding bucket.  Enjoy!!! Matthew Attached Images
Reply:How do I stop my pictures from being side by side.  I cannot scroll over to see them..
Reply:That looks like it'll work.One question, if you're not perfectly inline with the push from the loader, any chance of pushing the car off the track?.....Mike
Reply:I hope not.... It will swing from side to side a fair amount.  It will go all the way to the 4 x 4 angle on the sides.  I hope this will take care of that problem.  I still have to cut the plate that will attach to the quick attach.  I hope to get to that in the morning so I can get it mounted and have someone... try it out.  MatthewOriginally Posted by mrmikeyThat looks like it'll work.One question, if you're not perfectly inline with the push from the loader, any chance of pushing the car off the track?.....Mike
Reply:Will the eye of the coupler be free floating on the shaft, with the shaft pinned to the bushings?While pushing, the coupler will always want to go to the limit of side swing unless the loader operator is dead on.  At low speed, it's not necessarily a bad thing as long as the plates that restrict the side to side movement hold.  I've experienced the same thing, on a little scale, with the 3pt. hitch I use to move trailers.The movement will take up a lot of energy that otherwise might be transfered directly to the loader in one big azz jerking movement.  I tried an experiment restricting the side to side movement with my hitch by installing sway blocks on the 3pt.  It almost literally tore the 3pt.off.  A little sway is a good thing.  It acts like backlash in a gear train.I will definitely steal the bucket.  Rods, and a place to get rid of the stubs, all in one.  I have coffee cans full of stubs around the yard.  Always knock 'em over."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:farmersamm  i dont know if someone put this in already, but i just did a quick look..the weight issue all depends, an SE60 coupler is not to bad, me and a buddy put those in by hand at work all the time the "F" type are a little heavier IMO, if you have a locomotive coupler...have fun.mike
Reply:They always looked unGodly heavy to me.  I never saw any being worked on.  Used to be somethin' else hearin' couplers stretch out and slam when they started up a string from a dead standstill.  Wham, wham, wham, for however many cars there were."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammThey always looked unGodly heavy to me.  I never saw any being worked on.  Used to be somethin' else hearin' couplers stretch out and slam when they started up a string from a dead standstill.  Wham, wham, wham, for however many cars there were.
Reply:sorry i just saw the pics you posted...i forget the coupler type that is, but we use them on our lumber cars...quick question, how are you going to make the supports for the uncoupling lever....
Reply:Looks like a good job on the hitch,I worked for the Railroad for about a year as a carman and installed several of these couplers...the railroad closed the yard I worked in..So I came back to my shop rather than moving about 120 miles away..Need any help would be glad to help..also most of the time when moving cars in the yard you apply a light amount on the hand brake so the car will not roll away when uncoupled.Miller Big 20ESAB Migmaster 250Miller 180 SD Hobart 140 MigHypertherm Powermax 1000
Reply:It will probably never be an issue, but if the rail car has an articulated coupler and an extended cushion drawbar, then the lateral movement of that along with the one you are building will allow the couplers to push out to one side.  With too much force on an empty railcar, it could cause it to derail.  Again, I doubt it is likely, but still possible.Or just by your own locomotive....