Best way to weld 5" Steel casing in the ground

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I  might have a job coming up to install 5" ID 5 9/16"OD steel casings in side a building to provide foundation support. because we are in the building with low overhead room will be splicing 3' section. I will have all the pipe cut and beveled when I order them. Will weld on the casing shoes at the shop so that is easy. once at the site will drill the 3' section into the ground and leave about 1' sticking out then have to weld on another section before drilling down any further. I will be hiring a welder but will supply the welding equipment I have a miller Bobcat 250 with leads for stick do you think adding a suitcase wire feeder will be better and faster? What type of wire is needed? What do you think will be the best way to align the pipe? A set of pipe clamps? I am trying to get everything planed out before we get to the site. On a side note will need 105 3' sections beveled so that is 210 bevels they quoted me $10 a bevel from the shop. Is it worth it for me to look at buying my own pipe beveling machine?
Reply:Let me get this straight.You, a non-welder, are going to tell a professional welder HOW TO DO HIS JOB.Good luck with that.  Get back to us about how that works out.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIILet me get this straight.You, a non-welder, are going to tell a professional welder HOW TO DO HIS JOB.Good luck with that.  Get back to us about how that works out.
Reply:WOW.. ready.. FIGHT! i used to weld casing for a drilling company and we did elevator retros in the the building. it was pretty neat but they wanted to pay me laborer wages and the owner was a crankster so i bailed . we had a drill rig that ran on the elevator track and we would run a hyd power unit on a trailler outside the building a run hoses in. it was nasty! the mud that would come out would literaly melt! your boots.         The equipment sounds good but better would be an ln25 or ln22 with lincoln 212 self sheilded wire  wire diam depends on the wall thknes of the case. 1/4" wall id go with an ln-25 with .045 wire be sure to get an innersheild gun with a long gooseneck and i will help out a ton. with that many welds you will want to go as fast as possible cause when you are welding you aren't drillingLast edited by bravofab; 05-30-2011 at 01:37 PM.
Reply:i would highly recomed finding a way to increse your pipe lengths How big is your rig? im assuming 1' stickout + 3' pipe section+ 2' head hight  = 6' oah from deck to top  if you find a way make it bigger you will be able to cut a pile of time and save your self some money as for pipe clamps a tipton style or the one they call ez-fit is a hell of alot better than a couple chunks of angle iron and chain clamps.Last edited by bravofab; 05-30-2011 at 01:56 PM.
Reply:If you're making horizontal welds close to the ground in a dirty environment I would use 7018 3/32" stick.
Reply:wall thickness is 0.258 only have 7' clearance and the rotation motor is 3' leaves me 4' and i stiil have to put a drill pipe in tha casing to advance the DTH hammer  the drill pipe is in 3' sections also I can get 4' casings and drill pipe  but I think will be pussing it to tight with the height restriction.
Reply:on second thought 5" isnt that big so if you had to 1/8- 7010 would get you where you want to be but like i said  time=$lets see picsLast edited by bravofab; 05-30-2011 at 01:57 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Nacwall thickness is 0.258
Reply:Originally Posted by NacI am the owner of the company that wil supply the equipment and material I am just asking first I am not trying to tell somebody what to do. I will hire a welder and I have to suppluy him with the equipment. I am not hiring a subcontractor i am hiring an certified welder as an employee. Just trying to get as much info as possible up front. I do weld certain things but this is not a job for me that is why i am asking
Reply:Originally Posted by papaharley03In your first post, you said 5" ID and 5 9./16" OD. That's not a .258 wall thickness. 9/16 would be slightly more than a 1/2 inch, or just over .500 wall thickness.Just trying to get clarification.Papa
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIILet me get this straight.You, a non-welder, are going to tell a professional welder HOW TO DO HIS JOB.Good luck with that.  Get back to us about how that works out.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomMakes more sense doesn't it. .062=1/16 x 9 =.558 thousandths.But since it is pipe it can be + or - .025Important because you would be connecting pipes together that could be slightly different sizes.That would be .012 possible on each side. May not be a factor ,just depends if you have a sleeve inside the pipe or if one is required.
Reply:so much confusion over some pipe. OP should have said what schedule and screw this nonsense about id/od.  if you have a std five inch schedule forty pipe the wall thickness is .258.  no need to be carrying on about that id.  really no need to even mention the od.  since he did say the wall is .258 he did, in a backwards way state it is sch forty.  how much pipe can he have worked with to spec it this way.http://www.saginawpipe.com/steel_pipe.htm#pipechart1
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomYou cannot have the welding inspector as your employee.That would be a conflict of interest. You can be the boss of the welders and have welders working for you that are certified by some certification process, or have a welding inspection company perform the certification of the welders and the equipment.This is NOT a small job.  You will be accountable. The building codes are enforced by a civil engineer and they are the ones that qualify the welding inspectors. Maybe not directly but by a civil engineer trained in welding certifications. Stick welding or Wire feed will work but the wire feed will go faster.Having the pipes or tubes beveled by a business will be faster and less expensive that buying the equipment to do it by yourself. $10 per bevel on this  pipe is a GOOD deal. IF it is done correctly. Clean shiney metal. The welder will take care of the pipe alignment and spacing for welding.The first step is to see if splicing on that many connections is allowed for a building.Since they are all too short something already went wrong in the building process.So ,once again make sure this adding on of the posts is allowed for 105 connections.
Reply:whoops, i attributed that.258 wall the the OP.  not the case.  either way if someone came to me and started talking aboutt pipe this way i would immediately assume they knew nothing about pipe.  http://www.saginawpipe.com/pipe-A-revised.pdfheck, any fabricator should be familiar with pipe  schedules;  contractors also..
Reply:Jeez.Do we have to explain basic arithmetic to some posters.OP stated that he had a 5" ID pipe with a 5 9/16" OD/9/16" = .5625.5625/2 (there are two pipe walls were dealing with)=.2813.The pipe wall is .2813" or just over 1/4".How difficult is that?Donald lost me when he stated "welding inspector".  Did seem to be a bunch of gobblygook thrown in there though.Nac,I think you missed my point in the first post.If you hire a "qualified welder", you're better off letting him tell you how he can get the best results.  In fact, if you hire the right guy, he'll probably have his own equipment and be totally familar with it's use.If ;you're planning to hire some hack off the street, provide him with a Bobcat and a suitcase and tell him to weld up that pipe using xxxx wire, then you're asking for trouble.  I'd trust a certified pipe welder who's credentials I can verify over some unknown poster on an internet board any day.Based on your description, I assume you intend to join the pipe and pump cement into the casing to establish a  new footer.  How much oversize do you plan to drill your holes?  Don't forget that you have a cap on the weld bead which will increase the overall diameter.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I'd use a wire feed, I'd also use a chill ring, have a shop roll up some rings out of 1/4-inch material. Here is a WPS, ignore everything but the joint prep. Or adjust the numbers to suit yourself. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:yes, i should have read my own chart.  there is a .281 wall.    not commonly used but there nonethless.and given that it is uncommon i would want to know a little more if i was my business.  anyway it is a welding question and i got side tracked.  i would weld it with either wire or stick.depending how i was getting paid;  by the hour or by the piece.   casing pipe under 8 in's is commonly specd at sch forty .258 wall.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIJeez.Do we have to explain basic arithmetic to some posters.OP stated that he had a 5" ID pipe with a 5 9/16" OD/9/16" = .5625.5625/2 (there are two pipe walls were dealing with)=.2813.The pipe wall is .2813" or just over 1/4".How difficult is that?Donald lost me when he stated "welding inspector".  Did seem to be a bunch of gobblygook thrown in there though.Nac,I think you missed my point in the first post.If you hire a "qualified welder", you're better off letting him tell you how he can get the best results.  In fact, if you hire the right guy, he'll probably have his own equipment and be totally familar with it's use.If ;you're planning to hire some hack off the street, provide him with a Bobcat and a suitcase and tell him to weld up that pipe using xxxx wire, then you're asking for trouble.  I'd trust a certified pipe welder who's credentials I can verify over some unknown poster on an internet board any day.Based on your description, I assume you intend to join the pipe and pump cement into the casing to establish a  new footer.  How much oversize do you plan to drill your holes?  Don't forget that you have a cap on the weld bead which will increase the overall diameter.
Reply:Originally Posted by papaharley03In your first post, you said 5" ID and 5 9./16" OD. That's not a .258 wall thickness. 9/16 would be slightly more than a 1/2 inch, or just over .500 wall thickness.Just trying to get clarification.Papa
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeadod-id=2 wall thicknesses........what i wanna know is how are you gonna get the piece in the ground as vertical as you are gonna need it to be so the next piece connects to it without a mess...
Reply:RANT ONok back to reality... why on earth cant people leave their ego's out of an honest question. ole boy here wanted some knowlege of what to expect and 50% of what he got was self serving horse pucky. I am truely intersted in what he has got going on, how to help him and what his drill rig looks like. I KNOW the amount of welds in a filled case DON'T MATTER. I ALSO KNOW that he wants to hire a certified welder to use his eqipment and not a CWI (DONALD!) . NAC were you able to absorb any of the good info? what direction are you headed re: welding of the pipe?  Do you have any other questions? I would be happy to help you RANT OFF!
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI'd use a wire feed, I'd also use a chill ring, have a shop roll up some rings out of 1/4-inch material. Here is a WPS, ignore everything but the joint prep. Or adjust the numbers to suit yourself.
Reply:It sounds like they are emplacing these pipes after the building is complete to improve the strength of the foundation structure.  So how are they drilling these pipes into the ground?  The drilling method may well dictate the requirements for the inside and outside of the joint, never mind the hurry up weld, then wait, then hurry up and weld, then wait nature of the operation.  The drilling operation may well dictate the cleanliness of the area to the point where MIG is not as easy to do as stick weld, never mind the clear access to the entire circumference of the joint for welding because of the nature of the drill rig. (or is this all hydraulic jacking / drilling / impact drivers / vibrating with lots of hoses and mud up to your knees / manual operation?) What are the specifics on the drilling operations?Last edited by zipzit; 05-31-2011 at 01:40 AM.Originally Posted by bravofabyou got me thinking on the joint prep ... if you used a "consumable Backing ring" and proper spacing you may be able to eliminate the "double bevel and go square to bevel (eliminating half of the beveling work). remember to check the id of the ring will still accomidate the od of what you will be using inside. backing rings should be availible from your local weld shop and pre made for sch 40 5" if that is what you are using.It will also yeild a more consistent  weld with most opperators
Reply:You can not add any kind of interior coupling or backing plate or you will not be able to remove the drill bit and DTH hammer from the casings when done. Yes will be inside a building with a lot of dust and probably mud when drilling only. I think I will have both regular stick welder and a suitcase wire feeder on site. Ideally once set up will insert casing into ground leave about a foot sticking out then add the next casing without moving the drill line up and weld. so you will have to drill off the ground with a feed beam a couple inch's away..
Reply:This job is pure scab , a 825 operator and dock builder job in NJ the whole crew is 100 hr each union , call Linde Griffin or, MG Forge and have no problems !!!   John
Reply:Originally Posted by PavinsteelmanThis job is pure scab , a 825 operator and dock builder job in NJ the whole crew is 100 hr each union , call Linde Griffin or, MG Forge and have no problems !!!   John
Reply:JEEZ....to NAC, if this job is upcoming, I suggest you start looking for your weldor now. I would be having this discussion with your weldor. Hopefully some advice, is somewhere, in this thread. I dunno I stopped reading when it really left the original question. good luck.Weldanpower 225 G7Ironworkers Local #24
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomYou cannot have the welding inspector as your employee.That would be a conflict of interest. You can be the boss of the welders and have welders working for you that are certified by some certification process, or have a welding inspection company perform the certification of the welders and the equipment.This is NOT a small job.  You will be accountable. The building codes are enforced by a civil engineer and they are the ones that qualify the welding inspectors. Maybe not directly but by a civil engineer trained in welding certifications. Stick welding or Wire feed will work but the wire feed will go faster.Having the pipes or tubes beveled by a business will be faster and less expensive that buying the equipment to do it by yourself. $10 per bevel on this  pipe is a GOOD deal. IF it is done correctly. Clean shiney metal. The welder will take care of the pipe alignment and spacing for welding.The first step is to see if splicing on that many connections is allowed for a building.Since they are all too short something already went wrong in the building process.So ,once again make sure this adding on of the posts is allowed for 105 connections.
Reply:Dont  know why you want to weld  ??? Linde would use screw casing from OCI  pipe supply custom made for the job and they do this work all the time in NJ !!! NO WELDS   John
Reply:I have welded thousands of feet of 6" steel casing .25 and thicker and we always just use 6010 +p, by the time you get the pipe clean enough to weld with an LN 25 you can have your first pass already in (we usually run three pass). and for us it wasnt efficiant. this pipe was driven in with a welco beales casing hammer and when we had to pull back we would use extraction hammers or casing jacks that put out 200,000 of pull and I have never had one separate. you said it was just temparay casing, a good welder should be able to punch them out about 12 minutes apiece, good luck on the job.Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.