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Okay, I have to bid on a tractor cage gaurd to fend off the limbs on a brand new Kubota 9540.The owner would rather have a tank like stucture around, limited visibility etc than to recieve a scratch or busted window. It won't be used for right of way mowing. There's no need for a belly pan, but the upper part will have to be nearly fully enclosed from stem to stern with limb risers and expanded metal. I have done some work on right of way mowers, and there is no call for that heavy of material. My plan is to use 2x2x 3/16 tubing for the super structure and no. 9 or heavier expanded metal.Any one got any good suggestions pictures or even half witted ideas. It has to be completed before the first of the year.Also, what kind of money would you charge for labor? materials?Here's a sample pic of the tractorLast edited by lugweld; 12-16-2008 at 08:31 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:here's pic. Having trouble tonight with posting. I think it is OE. Sorry. Attached ImagesEsab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:So is this person using this tractor for logging?? Your idea with the expanded metal is good . I have done this to several logging cutters but never to someone's tractor. Given the curves on that tractors body it will be a challege.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.& 2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Not logging, but heavy bushhogging. He wants all the glass covered and wants limb risers. The best I can see happening is to make a "wedge" out of the front of the tractor using the limb risers and side supports and covering it with mesh. But I am worried about visibility. Also the doors are pure glass. He wants that protected too, but making a swinging mesh door taht goes on the outside of the glass door is prohibitedly complicated.Got any pics you can post?Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I see mirrors, exhaust and lights that need protecting. I would build a frame around everything.$1200.00 ? Heck I dunno!David Real world weldin. When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Yeah,The back is a mess of lights just waiting to get knocked off.On Labor including painting, installing I was thinking around 1600. Think that is too much? I figure materials will be close to that much too.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Hey LugweldI'm not tryin' to mess with ya, or any other owners of modern tractors. I don't care what brand it is. These machines aren't made for anything but very narrow types of intended use. They can't do what the old ones can. Too much plastic, too little metal. No radiator shield of any kind. Plastic fenders. Drivetrains engineered "just enough" to do the job.You could make a full rear shield, but something all around is virtually impossible. Maybe I'm wrong.The only way to protect a machine is to put distance between you, and what you're handling. Or, to buy a purpose built machine.But that's just my opinion."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:You have your work cut out for ya !!!! What ever ya bid, I think you'll earn every penny.Only suggestion I have is to use aggregate screen like used in rock crusher screen plants. It's high carbon and won't bend as easily as expanded metal. MikeOl' Stonebreaker "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:Just tell him to leave it in the garage under a tarp.....that way it wont get scratched.
Reply:I am with ya'll, But I need the money!!Plus, the customer is always right! Right? Right.But this a dealer delivery job. The dealer is lining this up for the guy.It will be made to do the job regardless and it is my mission to help it do it.IF I get it, I will of course post the pics so you all can throw some muck and airchair my design.Rough figuring gives me about 160-170 feet of 2x2 tubing. And about 200 sq ft of expanded metal if everything is covered.Agragete screening is not available readily here. Plus this has got to be done before Christmas or the end of the year for his "Taxes".Plus 7 or 8 feet of 1/2x6 flat bar. I am going to round up on everything so I don't get burned. That's why I am giving a loose figure. Then I 'll add a little more.Last edited by lugweld; 12-16-2008 at 09:38 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Triple the cost of material, or figure $5.00 a pound for the material will get you in the ball park for a total price including paint.Like one of those kids toys that can flip over and keep on going on its lid!DavidReal world weldin. When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:HOw's this?Insert a generous amount of expanded metal. Attached ImagesEsab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:That looks like it will protect it. You may want to look at a curved piece for the rear fenders. You will need to think of a way for repair and maintenance access. Maybe a removable frame and panels that can be unbolted, some you may be able to hinge and make swing away. What are the common access points on that tractor for regular maintenance?If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Have you Goggle'd logging equipment to "borrow" some ideas?If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Yes, I have figured in bolt points. Particularly, the risers, the front grill to swing down. The side will swing open or simply bolt on. The top will bolt to the upright supports.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I have done some googling. A lot of googling. I try to get some ideas first, although I haven't found too much relating to tractors. I have built and worked on Heavy duty type roll cages for sever power line and right of way work, but this is a different animal. One for power lines might run "finished" 6-7k.I'm thinking this one will run "finished" 3-4k.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Sounds like your 2 steps ahead of me, good luck with it and I'd be curious to see the pics of what you decide.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:My opinion is there's no way you could afford to build it nice for $1600, not even if the customer had specs and plans.This project could eat up a lot of time in study and engineering:Clearance to open hood and doors?Hinge points?Anchors to chassis?Axle tip and tire turning clearance?Twist and flex?Plus many complex fit-ups, painting, and a two week deadline, during the Holidays to boot!It'd be a charity job at 1600. I'd say see if you can help him out with a more decent sized tax deduction.But... If you can see clearance for a simple and strong way to attach anchor plates which would support six heavy verticals, and can avoid hinges, you might have a chance.Good Luck
Reply:True,I have been doing a little more estimating. Labor has gone up in the last couple of hours>>Maybe 2k just labor. I am going to depend upon the shop down the roads water jet. He is more than reasonable, and l'll trace the hole patterns and let him jet out the mounting brackets, and ears for quick attatch and detatch of the bolt on parts. I want and need the work, even if Christmas is confined to the 25th only. I'll check tubing and expanded metal prices in the a.m. But according to my last prices on tubing and ex. metal, it looks like about 2k too. 2+2= 4.It looks like a day or two on the saw alone.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I think it's one of these deals.You're gonna have to have the tractor in the yard. Sit on it, walk around it, think about it when ya go to bed, and get up in the morning. I'd say at least 3-4 days(the way my slow noodle works). You're lookin' at about 3 18packs of beer to boot(noodle lube)Then it's get down to drawing a print. Finding all that's gonna go wrong in afterthought. Then wind up with a final set of drawings. Not down to every hinge/bolt/whatever. That's gonna make itself obvious when you start puttin' it together.Then cut the first piece of steel. Then figure out a way to tack it together in "space". It is a complicated thing ya drew on the computer. Easy to draw, but a MF to put together.For a dumbazz like me, I'm talkin' a month at the best, from start to finish. Remember I don't do this for a living.Plus, I don't even know how much heavy lifting equipment you have. It's gonna take some equipment to do it. Stands, crane, etc.I'd take a pass on it, unless it was my own piece of equipment."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Making it sectionalized, it won't be heavy. It will only be made of 2x2 x3/16 material. Most of it will bolt together.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Your external skeletal frame is used on a lot of shelter trimmers down this way. I can't find a picture of one though. I do know though that they find the expanded metal hard to see through when it gets loaded up with small cuttings.The guy we use has built a reinforced cab on a New Holland and I'll attach a photo of it. You'll see from the shot that he cuts well out in front with a boom he made himself. There is also a glass panel in the roof of the cab to allow him to monitor progress on the cutting head. We won't have him back for about a year and if you'd asked a week ago, he was cutting in the neighbour's orchard.There isn't a standard panel left on these things, as they regularly trim up to 8" branches, though regularly trimmed orchards would only usually be 4-6" maximum diameter.I remember discussing it with him and he was saying that if it started to spit with rain, he'd complete a job but if it's a wet day or heavy rain, it gets impossible to see with all the trimmings and mess on the glass, as well as the diesel fumes and sap etc. He said that's when you damage gear and cut hydraulic hoses etc. From memory, it's a 120 or more hp tractor. The next day, his offsider comes with a similar tractor, a Claas (previously Renault) with a large Berti Mulcher on the back of it and turns it all into match sized mulch.Hope it might help. Most of the tractors that still use the external frame have shorter booms.Nice write up in the Esab newsletter, too!"One of the things we have to be thankful for is that we don't get as much government as we pay for." (Charles Kettering)Mitch 180 (NZ)Lincoln SAM-400-220 + ?-400 Fordson Major + 2 x Tractapac Humber 80 + Procut 40 PlasmaMiller Spectrum 375
Reply:My opinion is there's no way you could afford to build it nice for $1600, not even if the customer had specs and plans
Reply:I am going to have the mounting plates and brackets water jetted. That should take alot of the headache out of it. It is a time hog. I guess I need to know if someone thinks it would take more than 40 hours.The materials are seperate from the Labor.Oh, and glad you saw it Tractapac.Last edited by lugweld; 12-17-2008 at 09:38 AM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I guess I need to know if someone thinks it would take more than 40 hoursre: the customer's tax/accounting deadlineIf the customer PAYS for the job before his tax year deadline, then he can put it on his accounting/tax paperwork for that year's purposes. It doesn't matter when the item is delivered for tax purposes, just when he PAYS. Example: The customer's tax year ends December 31, 2008. He pays for the job Dec 25, 2008, and doesn't take delivery until Jan 28, 2009. For tax and accounting purposes, that purchase occurred in tax year 2008.If the customer and the equipment dealer and you can come to such an agreement (mostly trust on the customer's part), then he can pay upfront (for tax year purposes) and take the delivery later (when the job is actually done). Disclaimer: Check with a tax specialist or accountant, because tax laws can be convoluted (to say the least) and for all you know I may just be a monkey randomly typing on a keyboard in some medical research lab. So, you -should- be able to get more time to do the job if the customer will agree to such an arrangement.So, he pretty much wants an entire 'mesh' cage around the entire brand-new tractor? To protect against 'limbs'? Limbs as in 6" diameter and 20 feet long falling from 100 feet up in the air? To some folks, those are 'just limbs'. Expanded metal isn't going to stop THAT. One of those 'limbs' falling point-on will punch right through that expanded like it wasn't even there. Maybe some heavy-duty grizzly wire screen could handle it. http://www.cwcloth.com/grizzly.htmI think (as already mentioned by -several- folks, and denrep too ), that the requested job is NOT going to be simple or cheap or fast. You're going to have to mount it to the frame of the tractor, yet still allow for wheel motion and maintenance access and also the operator getting in and out. And just how is the operator going to open and close that big OEM glass door -AND- the 'new' mesh door at the same time? Unless you space the mesh-n-frame far enough out from the OEM door that the glass door can be opened completely -first- and THEN the mesh door gets opened. Or unless you can design and build some interesting compound linkage that somehow ties the glass door and the mesh door together so that they work as a 'unit' for opening/closing.$1600? Nope, not even at 'charity' rates. The welding time may only be about 2 hours , but the design, procurement, cutting, fitting, recutting and refitting, and then painting could easily be 40+ hours. Without running through material costs, I think you are looking at a ~$5k+ job (time and materials). And that's NOT painting it with Imron! The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:I wasn't figuring 1600 for the total job. I was only figuring that for my labor.However, I turned in a bid today for $4000. I figured materials, including tubing, paint, bolts, machine work and expanded metal. It came up to about 1800. My labor is at $45/hour. That allows me 45hours for 2000 dollars and 200 for misc. expenses. I told him that depending upon design issues it may exceed quote by 5% which will allow another 200 dollars.I see some issues, but pretty much everything is straight forward. Access holes for mounting flanges are easily accesable. A great much of it will be bolt together with hinged ears.Last edited by lugweld; 12-17-2008 at 04:53 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner but I have been busy on a project I started making clothes lines "T"Poles. The projected has ended up in my getting more contracts for these.As for your project with this tractor I think your biting off more than you can chew. Yes it can be done but the tractors 's body style, huge doors and all that glass are going to make it VERY EXPENSIVE and TIME CONSUMING. All the tractor and backhoes I have done this to had straight line bodies.I even did it to my own Ford/New Holland 345D and 555E. And Georgia Pacific's equipment was straight forward non curve design equipment. The CAD designs were very time consuming. The framework was designed to be able to be removeable not only for service but also when they wanted to use the equipment for other uses. On the straight form design equipment it was relatively eassy to make it fit to existing framework and body bolt points. Problem with the tractor you have pictured is the basic body style will require extensive cage work and expanded metal forming! Especially around those huge curved windows and wide opening glass door.I have enclosed a picture of my Ford/New Holland 345D! The cage framework is not on it right now but you can get an idea of what I am talking about in comparing the pics of straight design frame and panels verus the curved style. On my 345D its an open air design on the 555E its a closed in designed around the glassed cab. Such design was about $3,000 for removeable expanded metal and framework and that was using a shop that had all the metal fabrication equipment.I am not sure I would even want to try to price out such a project on that tractor. Especially if the Owner wants to pay up front. Locking yourself in on such a project could mean substantial out of pocket expenses for you if you exceed the agree price. And unless you have all the fabrication equipment it will be major outlay of labor to form the curved frame work and panels. A rough "ESTIMATE" could be $6,000."If your obligated to this dealer and ownner to do this project I would only do so with an estimated cost up front and the actuals to be paid upon completion. I would never accept a fixed price/paid upfront contract on this one."My personal recommendation to the owner would be if he has not already pruchased that tractor!! Go out an gget a good used straight line designed 4x4 unit. My 1992 345D is a industrial design heavy duty 4x4 8 speed tractor 62hp. Have them check around. They are going to pay BIG bucks for that tractor they want and then they are going to spend even BIGGER bucks to convert it.Hope that helps,Tom Attached ImagesLast edited by specter; 12-17-2008 at 05:09 PM.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.& 2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:Well,I never expected such discouraging news. I'm not new at this, I have built these, though I am a bit rusty. The local going price for these in this area is 5000 or less. I did find that out. Multiple people around here use these kubotas for right of way mowing and worse. In fact there is a commercial outfit that equips these tractors with belly pan and superstructure. The tractors hold up fine. I went with the dealer today to look a two such tractors. No problems. No one uses industrial tractors for these type applications any more. All woods and brush cutting is done with regular farm tractors that are outfitted.Many of these guys doing this type of work around here have been using these type of tractors for 20 years.There will be no need for CAD. Neither will it need to be glove fit. It will stand away from the tractor frame. Let me remind you of my capabilities. This project represents only 80 hours work, first time through. No cad. Attached ImagesLast edited by lugweld; 12-17-2008 at 05:40 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:PS.That tractor you have was particularly problematic with ford for that year model. I used to work for them when it was out. Name a problem and it had it. One issue with industrial tractors, besides lack of horsepower, is often times more than not, the PTO's are driven off the transmission and is not independently operated, making for dangerous use. Addidtionally, you rarely find them with 4wd.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Hi Lugweld,Do not be discouraged by all you have heard!! It can be done. In my case I used CAD design to help out since Georgia Pacific LumberCompany wanted serviceability designed into the cage unit. everything in their design was made so that parts of the cage swinged open to allowed easy daily service on units that were being operated almost 24/7. You could also make the sections the cage sections to operate on a hinge and pin door type frame system. Their design incorparated easy removal of the cage.Your biggest factor is if they want to lock you into price and pay up front. If this was a basic design you have done before I would said sure go ahead with that deal. If you have all the fabrication equipment in house and the time then your all set. If not you pay want to be flexible and not fixed on any costs & pricing. Your biggest risk here will be they wide glass door operation swinging open and shut in unison with the cage .Nice cutting setup. Hopefully that does not have to be setup on that tractor as well. If it as to be setup on that tractor then consider a rear 3 point lift type setup.As for the problems with this type of Ford/New Holland most the problems come from the Live PTO as far as hookup of 3Pt equipment especially brushhogs or cutting equipment. But as far as front or rear operated hydraulics I have not had any problems. Georgia Pacific's logging rely on hydraulic verus pto driven power. TomLast edited by specter; 12-17-2008 at 06:44 PM.Co-Own CNC shop:Miller :1251 plasma cutter, MaxStar 700 TIG/Stick, & XMT 456 Multiprocess Welder.& 2 Hypertherm HPR260's Plasma CutterSorry I had a bad stroke but now I am back.
Reply:just another idea, how about lexan insted of mesh?i know the harvesters all use lexan to stop branches and chain shot from the machine. stands up to everything except fireBill BerryKeith Berry & Son Ltd.machine work, and weldingBear River Vollunteer FD
Reply:Its a good idea, but it discolors and scratches, plus it gets dirty. But it is worth thinking about. I haven't had much success in fastening lexan. I guess its possible.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Take it from experience.....#9 expanded isn't going to do well with limbs. It bends, stretched, and tears to easily. You need to go with a screen mesh. Something in the 3/16" - 1/4" wire range would work well. I did one for a customer of mine a couple years ago, and when I considered time planning, fabricating, and painting I had over 55hrs in it.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:A word about fastening Lexan. I've been using it for years instead of mesh and it works great.When drilling support the back of it and use a slow speed like you would for mild steel. Also use plain water as a lubricant.Mount with screws and rubber washers, same type of thing they use for mounting metal sheets to the exterior of buildings.I have a ranch with 15 acres of pine and cedar trees, damn hard on windows. Replaced my rear one with lexan, after it touched a errant limb. Lexan flexes and bounces back. Also, very easy to replace, a lot easier than mesh.The guys around here use the Kubota and also New Holland to do the bushing jobs and power line right of ways. As for the ditches most contractors use John Deere's.Hope this helps.Sign on East Texas payphone: Calls to God 40 cents......it's a local call...
Reply:It doesn't look as grim to me as it does everybody else. It doesn't matter how many curves the body has, the cage will consist of straight, flat sections.Once you get the frame mounts in place, it's just going to be a matter of making flat panels to fit. That's my take.My outlook on quoting work when "you really need the money" is this, right wrong or indifferent, in the end you'll come out with a couple grand you didn't have before, even if it takes longer than you anticipated. Plus quite a bit more knowledge to apply to the next quote. I remember well the jobs that I've quoted work short. Instead of concentrating on how much (little) I was making per hour of effort, I concentrated on the lump sum amount I would have at the end of the job. That always made it easier to take for me You've gotta turn out good work, even if you estimated the time wrong, might as well look at the bright side.JTMcC.
Reply:For now, the project has been put on hold in favor of a front end loader. Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT |
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