what is the best rod for welding R.R. TRACK

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I'm extending a cantelevered(sp?) dock.  the builder, many yrs ago put the rails in concrete and they hang out over the water.  its a nice dock, no pipes in the water to get trashed by ice.anyway, he wants his dock longer. i've figured out how to use channel for the job, and will be doing some welding to the track. I thought 7018 would do the trick but i'm not sure, for i've never welded on/to RR track.has anyone here had any success welding track?  if so,  what type rod or process did you use?any help or suggestions would be helpful and appreciated. mike
Reply:Rail is going to be fickle, crack prone welding. Are you going to have to weld it hanging over the water, like monkey-man?Most rail, I would compare to a repair weld on high carbon steel, such as a fork tine. Double V'd,  7018 or 10018,  preheat and peening between passes. Bolted splice plates??I would be concerned if the extension is going to exceed the yield strength of the rail at its anchor. Cantilever loading of rail -in my experience- hasn't met with the greatest success.Sorry - I missed the part about extending with channel. That could be a little easier, but it just sounds like a tough weld. If you try to just burn a bead to the rail, I think it's going to crack, and pull the base rail metal right out. Scrappers snap rail to size like glass. I vote for prefab and a bolted splice.Last edited by denrep; 10-10-2007 at 11:37 PM.
Reply:denrep,  the channels are going to be cupped on the outside of each rail.the dock is 10' now, he wants it to be 20'. i would be using two 20' 6" or 7" channels. with each channel butting up to the concrete. 10 ' of which would be cupping the track.  bolting could be an option, good idea.  what you are saying is;  the track could snap right at the point it goes into the concrete?  its been there for prob 50-60 yrs already.  is rail that hard? if so it could crack under the weight of those huge trains, no?  thanks,  mike
Reply:I made a anvil from a piece of RR track.  I used stick welded with nickel rod, 55% I think.  I welded two pieces of strap to the track for hold downs.  No problems a after 6 yrs.I did have problems with cracking prior using the nickel rod.
Reply:Railroad track is almost an austinetic manganeese. It's very hard and brittle but extremely wear resistant. i would recamend preheating to around 900 degrees and weld it with 7018, manganese welds pretty good with stainless filler. You would probably be in pretty good shape with some 312. I have welded lots of mag with it.
Reply:Originally Posted by proweld... the channels are going to be cupped on the outside of each rail......the dock is 10' now, he wants it to be 20'...... i would be using two 20' 6" or 7" channels...... 10 ' of which would be cupping the track...  what you are saying is;  the track could snap right at the point it goes into the concrete?  its been there for prob 50-60 yrs already.  is rail that hard?... if so it could crack under the weight of those huge trains, no?...
Reply:Originally Posted by proweldis rail that hard? if so it could crack under the weight of those huge trains, no?  thanks,  mike
Reply:Rail is kind of odd stuff.  First off it's spec'd as pounds per yard rather than the common lbs/ft of structural material, 115 lb rail is 115 pounds per 3 foot increment.My son currently works for a company that does track inspection throughout No. America.  Prior to that he worked for a contractor who did rail construction and repairs.  The result of that is that I've picked up a bit of knowledge on the stuff, some of it quite surprising.  Seems like, while cracked rails are not that common they are dangerous enough to deadline a section of track until repaired.  I will confirm that when I can catch up with my son.  Broken rail is not "mended" the broken piece is removed and replaced.  If it is a section of welded rail the break is cut out and replaced with a new piece.  Rail is welded with cadwelding, not any sort of normal welding.  Rail can be joined into long sections and then laid along the roadbed by specially equipped trains.  It is flexible enough that it is carried on a string of cars and bends as the cars go around curves.  There a maintenance of way machines that will tavel on an existing track, pull up the old rail and lay new sections that have been set along the old tracks in advance.  Pretty impressive that it can be woven in and out and not break or kink.  If I can get the links to pics of the rail equipment that does that I'll post them here.We got a couple lengths of rail that had been scrapped and cut them into 36" pieces for weights on our garden tractors.  By cutting through the head (top) and flange (bottom) and then picking them and dropping them about 4' they would snap like glass.  "We" didn't pick them ourselves, Ray had the company truck that they used to transport materials and the loader made it a pretty painless process.
Reply:Thanks for the replies weldors  ive learned quite a bit about RR track here.  y'alls info will be helpful.thanks again,    Mike
Reply:I would avoid it like the plague. Old rail road iron has the nasty habit of fracturing. I have seen a lot of it over the years used as cattle stops and a lot of broken rail. The modern stuff is welded but here where it is totally welded for up to 400 km it is done by machine or thermite. I would have a serious think about being sued if someone has an accident and your act of welding the rail is blamed.Clive
Reply:I have to add to these warnings about the RR.  We used a short piece of rail for a lifting beam once and only once. The load was only(thankfully) 3/4" off the floor when the short rail snapped right at the load point. I would never have believed it if I hadn't seen it.  With this in mind I would advise against adding more cantilevered load to this old dock. Just my 1 cent.SA200,Ranger8,Trailblazer251NT,MM250,Dayton225AC,T  D-XL75,SpoolMate3545SGA100C,HF-15-1  RFCS-14 When I stick it, it stays stuck!
Reply:Short answer as most folks already mentioned - NO!Longer answer.  Do NOT modfy the existing cantilevered dock.  Do NOT weld onto the existing beams that hold up the 10 ft long dock.  Do NOT mess with or modify the existing cantilevered beams made of railroad track.Slightly even longer answer.  Railroad track can be welded, but it is a relatively hard and brittle steel.  But even more importantly, the beam material (railroad track in this case) is a slightly lesser concern than the overall project idea of changing a cantilevered dock from 10 feet long to 20 feet long.  That change is a HUGE change!As an example, changing a cantilevered beam (W6x9-A36) that is adequate for a 10 ft cantilever (end deflection of 0.544 inch for the sample loading condition) to a 20 ft long cantilevered overhang results in a sag at the end of 9.7 inches and a structural rating of INADEQUATE by nearly 400% for the same loading conditions.  And that is just the beam, not even considering the  foundation or the anchoring of the beam into the foundation.The beam would have to change from a W6x9-A36 for the 10 ft cantilever to a W8x31-A26 (end sag of 1.9 inches) or a W10x22-A36 (end sag of 1.6 inches) or a W12x26-A36 (end sag of 1 inch) for a 20 ft cantilever.  All for the same load conditions.  Add one big guy (250 lb) at the end of that 20 ft beam and the sag changes from 1 inch to 1.3 inch for the W12x26-A36 beam.I doubt the original beams were oversized so much that you could extend them out from 10 ft to 20 ft.  And trying to tie on a new 'structure' (your idea of channel as beams) onto the existing RR track beams might make the dock and extension structurally OK, but as soon as all that load goes onto the old RR track beams it would most likely fail right where the beams go into the concrete foundation.Can one make a cantilevered dock sticking out 20 ft from the shore?  Sure, but it will take an engineer or good architect (with engineering support) and some big materials and some good (heavy!) concrete foundation work.As an example, for wooden framing and a cantilever extension (deck, balcony, look-out, whatever) the rule of thumb for the 'anchoring' of the cantilever is 3x the extension has to be extending continously back into the house/structure.  And -then- you have to make sure the extension beams are sized adequately for the job.Oh, and your idea of channel?  For a 20 ft cantilever, you are looking at C15x40 channel minimum.  No way will 7 inch channel be structurally sufficient.  That W12x26-A36 channel would be much lighter at 26 lb/ft compared to the 40 lb/ft of the C15x40-A36 channel.
Reply:My biggest concern is the chance of the track snapping off at the concrete. if that chance wasnt there,  my idea of cupping a 20' long 7" channel onto the 10' track that is embbeded in a massive concrete slab/chunk, would work.  yes, it would be a bit bouncy,  maybe even a bit more bouncy.  but seeing that i have no idea how brittle the track actually is, i dont think i'll be taking the job.  i didnt realize how brittle rr track can be,  I always knew it wasnt mild steel. I always assumed it was tough, like a wrench,  a pry bar or something like that. where i once worked, we had a home made hyd. bender that we bent beams,solids etc. with a dozer cyl. on it made out of rr track.  there were TREMENDOS loads applied to these tracks over 20 yrs time. so, i dont really know what to think.Last edited by proweld; 10-12-2007 at 01:42 PM.
Reply:RR track can be very very VERY strong, but only if it has the right loads applied to it, otherwise it is about like glass. it is cast iron (from my understanding) and has a great compressive force resistance. however, as soon as torsional (twisting) or uneven, vertical/horizontal (bending) loads are applied, it becomes very brittle and the crystaline structure of the metal cannot withstand the stresses. if it is a uniform load (usually trains are, since they are rolling), it is a great material. However, due to the non-flexing nature of the metal over short spans (10-20 feet in your case), it is not recommended for use in a structural application. larger spans, as somone else noted, can be flexed, bent, and twisted, but only to a certain extent. they cannot take a 1000' section and expect it to make a radiused (is that grammatically correct?) bend of about 100 yards... it just won't happen.sorry to burst your bubble. i bet it would have paid well. i just don't think it's worth the risk to approach the situation like the client is attempting to. if you have pictures of the site, maybe we can help you reccomend some alternatives... that way you can have a reputation that even if you can't do it, you can find someone or help find someone that can do the job safely, and efficiently. i ahve noticed that people tend to take their business to more people like that, rather then trying to find everything on their own. the clients then usually find that the person can do more than what the client once thought, and brings more work and clients to that person. i'm sure you've seen that cycle before, but i jsut wanted to throw it out there in case someone else hasn't.Later,AndyLast edited by aczeller; 10-12-2007 at 01:36 PM.
Reply:Andy,Railroad track is steel, not cast iron.  They both have iron and carbon in them, but they are different materials with different properties.btw, cast iron has MORE carbon in it than steel.  If the metal alloy is mostly iron with almost nothing else in it except for maybe a max of about 1% carbon and some silicon, and it was cast (as in the casting process), then that particular metal alloy might properly be called cast steel.  If the generally same mix of elements except the carbon percentage is 2% or greater is made, then you then have an alloy called "cast iron".Mike/proweld,Not even considering the existing railroad track beams, NO way would a 20 ft long cantilevered dock structure be structurally adequate if made out of 7" C channel. Nope, no-way.  If you supported the far end of the dock on posts and no longer have a cantilever, then C7x12.25 might be just fine.  But for a 20 ft long cantilever, you need some pretty darn big beams.  See my above post for some specific beam sizes that would be needed for a 20 ft long cantilever.
Reply:me and another welder had the task of  building a grissley for one of the many job sights about 6 months ago, its 12 ft w , 18ft at highest point , and 6inch spaceing between rails ,. we did a lot of pre-heating on every weld I want to say we used  800 heat stick, and we used ( washington alloy -tensile weld/ 5/32 rod ) and it has worked out great and it has not had any sighns of cracks or breaks , that might be something to think about ?for your dock and the grissly takes a pounding , unless you dock is used buy 1000 jenny craig drop outs ??
Reply:Originally Posted by proweldI'm extending a cantelevered(sp?) dock.  the builder, many yrs ago put the rails in concrete and they hang out over the water.  its a nice dock, no pipes in the water to get trashed by ice.anyway, he wants his dock longer. i've figured out how to use channel for the job, and will be doing some welding to the track. I thought 7018 would do the trick but i'm not sure, for i've never welded on/to RR track.has anyone here had any success welding track?  if so,  what type rod or process did you use?any help or suggestions would be helpful and appreciated. mike
Reply:We use rails for building pipe on. My understanding is that they are medium carbon steel and it has been my experience that they don't lend themselves to welding...without special alloy rods and pre and post heat and stress relieve. I would agree with all of the advice that has been given here
Reply:Found this pic online.Here's the link it the pic doesn't post.http://www.arrt-inc.com/jpg/railfracture3.jpg Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseAndy,Railroad track is steel, not cast iron.  They both have iron and carbon in them, but they are different materials with different properties.btw, cast iron has MORE carbon in it than steel.  If the metal alloy is mostly iron with almost nothing else in it except for maybe a max of about 1% carbon and some silicon, and it was cast (as in the casting process), then that particular metal alloy might properly be called cast steel.  If the generally same mix of elements except the carbon percentage is 2% or greater is made, then you then have an alloy called "cast iron".Mike/proweld,Not even considering the existing railroad track beams, NO way would a 20 ft long cantilevered dock structure be structurally adequate if made out of 7" C channel. Nope, no-way.  If you supported the far end of the dock on posts and no longer have a cantilever, then C7x12.25 might be just fine.  But for a 20 ft long cantilever, you need some pretty darn big beams.  See my above post for some specific beam sizes that would be needed for a 20 ft long cantilever.
Reply:WOW!!! i've never seen RR track do that! i never thought it'd do it either. do you know how it happened? i figured it woudl have shattered before it ever curled like that.later,Andy
Reply:jsut out of curiosity proweld, what is the client using the track for? from the sounds of it, they are not intending to load the tacks with nearly as much weight as the rest of us are assuming.later,Andy
Reply:Originally Posted by aczellerjsut out of curiosity proweld, what is the client using the track for? from the sounds of it, they are not intending to load the tacks with nearly as much weight as the rest of us are assuming.later,Andy
Reply:are they planning on puting any sheathing of flooring over the rails? my guess would be wood. if you can give us some dimensions, i can draw up a couple premliminay drawings for you really quick. i have to design sewer equpiment all day on AutoCAD, so i'm used to having to calculate loads on opjects like that. i'm thinking possibly a tube frame bolted to the existing rails and covered with a few deck boards. maybe throw in a couple gussets under the frame and have them apply a lateral force into the existing dock. it would probably be a little easier to work with, rather than having to suspend 10' sections of c-channel and RR track.just a thought. just let me know. if you can get the deck height above the high-tide point and the general shape of the existing stuff, that woudl help out the most.later,Andy
Reply:I don't think I've ever seen 7 inch Channel in my short 10 year career. Always 6,8,10. I have used 5 inch and 3 inch, but 7 is an odd one as is 9I know, 7" is not a standard size, but they do make it. my supplier can get anything under the sun. he gets steel shipments daily. i just order it and they throw it on the next truck from this huge steel/metal warehouse.
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrFrom my limited experience with train track, it had to be very soft. If not those wheels would chatter off the track. I was under the impression it was a wrought iron, or dead soft steel. Someone was saying that when they would saw through a portion of the rail that it would then if dropped four feet snap off like glass. Wrought iron will do that too. If you cut through a portion of iron bar, that small portion that is left does not stretch, bend or give. And just tears at the cut, and breaks right off.
Reply:Originally Posted by Alan N So far I've found this...   which should end the iron or steel question.   I can't find anything on the specifications for what type of steel rails are made of.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepThe reason I mentioned the possibility of iron rail back in post #6, was because the dock could be 60 years old and could have been built out of very old rail. I believe iron rail went out of style about 1875.There are probably date and mill markings on the side of the rail.
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrFrom my limited experience with train track, it had to be very soft. If not those wheels would chatter off the track. I was under the impression it was a wrought iron, or dead soft steel.
Reply:I went and looked at the dock again,  and, went to the local  rail way line. i measured the heigth of the rail at the tracks and it was roughly 7" or so and the track at the old dock is around 5+ inchesdoes this mean anything in the matter of strength and or brittleness?could this track come from a coal mine or maybe a kiddie train/coaster?
Reply:does this mean anything in the matter of strength and or brittleness?could this track come from a coal mine or maybe a kiddie train/coaster?
Reply:Originally Posted by proweldI went and looked at the dock again,  and, went to the local  rail way line. i measured the heigth of the rail at the tracks and it was roughly 7" or so and the track at the old dock is around 5+ inchesdoes this mean anything in the matter of strength and or brittleness?could this track come from a coal mine or maybe a kiddie train/coaster?
Reply:proweld,I'll say it again.Besides the issue of some old(er) railroad track being used, with its unsure physical and metallurgical conditions, the main problem with your whole proposed modification of a 10 ft long cantilevered dock into a 20 ft long cantilevered dock is that the proposed materials and design and foundation are INADEQUATE.Trying to use 7 inch C-channel for the beams on a 20 ft long dock supported at both ends?  That might be adequate and do-able.Trying to use 7 inch C-channel for a 20 ft long cantilever dock?     NO  NO  NO  NO A 20 ft cantilever dock could be made.  But not out of RR track.  And not out of 7 inch C-channel.  And not out of 7 inch C-channel tied onto existing cantilever RR track.The loading changes from the change from a 10 ft cantilever to a 20 ft cantilever are HUGE.For a 10 ft cantilever dock, W6x9-A36 beams would most likely be just adequate.  The number of needed beams depending on the dock width.For a 20 ft cantilever dock, W12x26-A36 beams would most likely just be adequate.  Again, the number of beams depends on the dock width.For a 20 ft cantilever dock, a 7x12.25 C-channel is -INADEQUATE- in bending stress by about 10x.     Just try and get a code official or engineer (a PE) or an architect to OK 20 ft long cantilever beams made of 7x12.25 C-channel for a dock.   So, do NOT-NOT-NOT try and make a 20 ft cantilever dock out of 7 inch C-channel.   A 20 ft long dock mounted on posts and fixed at both ends, and make the beams out of 7 inch C-channel?  OK.
Reply:I think you may be right about the channel being ok since it would practacaly only be canterlevered 10'. The problem is as has been pointed out, the exit point of the RR track from the concrete. You know you can lift a very large object with a 20' lever. That will give you an idea of the stress placed on the fulcrum, which would be the point of exit, right?I would not want the responsibility, but it could be built and last 199 years. It is just not a safe design.Last edited by mooseye; 10-15-2007 at 05:50 PM.SA200,Ranger8,Trailblazer251NT,MM250,Dayton225AC,T  D-XL75,SpoolMate3545SGA100C,HF-15-1  RFCS-14 When I stick it, it stays stuck!
Reply:Moonrise,  I'm in agreement with you on the problems with building the dock. if that rail is brittle at all, that 20 ft. dock will definatly snap off right at the concrete. In the beginning i thought all track was tough like a crowbar or car leaf spring. if that rail were tough like that,  he would basicly have a huge diving board.  I called him and told him about what we have been discussing here. i said that it wouldnt be a good idea to atempt to build this extension. in the end, he said he was going to do it anyway. hes going to attach the channels by way of strapping/boxing the peices together.  i said i would weld some ties inside the 10 ft section of channels, thats all.  i told him that it was his butt if it failed.I mentioned using posts at the end. he said that when the ice forms on the lake, it takes out all the posts at that area of the lake. he said it might be possible to make some sort of removable/temp. posts to use during the summer and pull them in the winter.
Reply:Mike,I wouldn't do anything on that project as-proposed at all.  Nothing.     I don't have enough liability insurance for the almost certain structural failure.And I -hate- working on something and having it fail.    As zap says, "You touch it, you are IT."  Meaning from a liability standpoint, you are IT, you are responsible, it is your butt and pockets on the line.No thank you on that dock extension idea as proposed.  As I said, it certainly is possible to make a 20 foot long cantilever dock.  But not with existing RR track, and not with 7 inch C-channel, and not with 7 inch C-channel attached in any manner to existing RR track.
Reply:Here's what you do. obviously the guy doens't want to have posts in the water if he can help it. that means he cannot support the dock from the bottom... so why not support it from the top? drop in a post at the edge of the concrete... drill a hole through it about 6 inches from the top. splice your new beam to the existing track. drill a hole in the new beam, about 6" from the end closest to the boat. then take a steel cable and string it from the hole in the top of the post to the hole in the end of the new beam. take another cable and string it from the post to an anchor placed on the other side of the post... so the cables go in opposite directions. think of it as a suspension bridge of sorts. i'm not sure of the sizes of cable you woudl need, but if you woudl like, let me know and i can get you some more definitive dimensions and a plan or two drawn up... [email protected] is my e-mail address. hope that solves your problem. it is probably a little bigger than what you were hoping for, but to me, it's the only way to make sure it holds without putting posts in the water. another option woudl be to strap some 55-gallon drums together and create a "float" out of them to put under the end of the dock. the dock woudl be supported and the floats would be able to move with the tide and ice. now that i think about it, it may not be the best idea since the rest of the dock woudl be securely fastened into concrete. the client may get a little pissed off when his new dock starts to snap in half due to opposing forces.later,Andy
Reply:Wow! I cant beleive how much time has flown by!I never did the job, well, I did burn 4 holes in the webs He got some big treated 2x 10's and bolted them to the rails  Its bouncey for sure, He went and jumped up and down on it    Not me, I stayed off.  Its been awhile since I've seen the dock, I will go and check it out. If it broke or something, I will report on it.  .
Reply:Originally Posted by proweldI'm extending a cantelevered(sp?) dock.  the builder, many yrs ago put the rails in concrete and they hang out over the water.  its a nice dock, no pipes in the water to get trashed by ice.anyway, he wants his dock longer. i've figured out how to use channel for the job, and will be doing some welding to the track. I thought 7018 would do the trick but i'm not sure, for i've never welded on/to RR track.has anyone here had any success welding track?  if so,  what type rod or process did you use?any help or suggestions would be helpful and appreciated. mike
Reply:I don't know much about the welding of rail other than what I've talked to our track department about, which is very little. But to give an idea of what these rails carry as far as loads go, a 6 axle road engine is going to weigh in the neighborhood of 275 tons and distribute its weight over 12 wheels. Each wheel is only condacting the rail over about a 2 square inch area of surface. Rail is inspected on a regular basis and there are cracks all over that can't be seen but through an xray type machine. Every year, the first cold snap after summer brings broken rail.Powcon 400SM2-PD60 wire feedersMiller XR controlAlumapro push/pull gunSpeedglas 9100xBFH
Reply:http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...e+welding&aq=0There are lots of yootoob clips to watch. The crown of rail is said to be a hardened surface, and I am told the underbody is closer to a tough, mild steel. It is not designed for rigidity, but for compression strength and wear resistance, (especially the top). Straight from rumor control, that is.  I have one small sample with a visible crack running vertically through the web. Attached ImagesCity of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:At work they sometimes use 309L-16 to do small repairs and attach some switch gear on the rail.Thermite welding predominately.
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomRailroad track is welded together with a special process that incorporates thermite.It would take a lot of heat. And it is hardened steel. It is made to just lay flat and well supported. It weighs about 22 lbs. per foot.Use something else.