Metal Shear restore using electrolysis

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Dad gave me an old shear and I wanted to restore it before putting it to use. Having read about electrolysis but never done it, I thought this would be a good project to test it out on. It's a safe, non-destructive method to remove rust and have no impact on the good metal. Here's what I did.Started with a trip to Walmart to pick up the supplies, a 98L storage bin and a box of Arm and Hammer Washing soda (not baking soda which is sodium BIcarbonate, you need sodium carbonate). Total cost of a whopping $16.Next I bent 4 pieces of 1/8" scrap and hung it over the sides of the container. This is what the + side of the battery charger will be connected to.I sacrificed an old extension cord and stripped the copper wire to connect it all together, first the + sacrificial anode....metal strips.Here's a pic of the shear disassembled, I'm only doing the base for now. The rest of the pieces will be done in round #2.Continued........If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:I estimated that I had 20 gallons of water and mixed in 25 tablespoons of the sodium carbonate (1-2 tablespoons/gallon, kepe sayz "more is not better"). Here we are ready to go!Within 10-15 minutes you can tell that somethings happening.The battery charger is set to 12 volts, 2 amps, the meter reads about 1/4 of the way up.....just a trickle. this is what you have at 12 hours. I'll leave it in for 2-3 days.Never being someone to leave well enough alone, I decided to "pimp my shear handle". the original was just a piece of pipe. I replaced that with a smaller piece of 1/4" wall crs that I hit with a flap wheel first. The bottom was cut off the original and welded to the end to slip over the shaft on the cutter and a gas fitting was chopped up to give me a brass cap on the end.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Here's the progress report (41 hours). First a pic of the brew, the additional 2 anodes are on the ends and seem to be doing their job as you can see the pile of crud coming off them. I pulled it out and had a look. Seems to be covered in a blackish/grey crud, the paint is quite wrinkled and looks like it will brush off easily.I bent up some coat hangers (after sanding the paint off them) and got the second batch ready to go. Found the remains of a wire basket that will work well for the small pieces. I plan to put an additional anode on the bottom when I drop this in.Finally I finished off the handle and gave it a coat of paint. Comments welcome on the best type to use for the main parts. If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Here we are at the 62 hour point. The reaction seemed to be slowing down so 2 1/2 days later it was time to come out. Here's a pic after I scraped the worst of the gunk off and wiped it with a dry rag. It did a great job, the rust is totally gone and the old paint just wiped off. Second pic is after I took a wire brush to it and gave it a coat of WD40 to prevent rerusting while I finish up the rest.The old brass tag looks good after a clean up with hand cleaner. I found a BRITISH STEEL marking (top of 1st pic) that I couldn't see before, along with another 1940 stamp, and a larger cHAM ENGLAND marking. A better pic of the cleaned up weld...I placed a larger piece of 1/8" flat in the bottom of the bucket, wired it up and dropped in the second batch after topping off the water/soap and skimming the crud off the top. If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:It does an excellent job.  I never would have believed it unless I'd seen it.What do you do with the crud?"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:The crud I scraped off into a bucket, once it dries up I'll throw it in the garbage.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:The crud is nothing more than water, washing soda and rust...simply put ...oops, Stans mixture contains paint also ...I stand corrected.Nice job, Stan!
Reply:Thanks again kepe, it would not have come out as good as it did if it wasn't for the coaching you provided over on John's site, it is appreciated. You get some of the credit for the results!If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Bein' mostly iron, I wonder if it might do a good job as a plant food for some of the bushes etc. around your house.  Put it on something that you won't miss if it doesn't work out.This process doesn't seem to remove any metal.  Do you think it would work on really light gage metal?  I have some toy trucks that belonged to my father during the 30's, and I'd like to restore them."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I'm not an expert on this stuff, but I understand that this is the process they use on artifacts and sunken treasure. It's not suppose to remove any good metal at all. If it was mine and I was sure that a restoration, wouldn't hurt the value.....this is the process I'd use.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:If anyone has any info about this shear / British Steel or the East London Engineering Works, I'd be curious to hear it.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Originally Posted by SWellsI'm not an expert on this stuff, but I understand that this is the process they use on artifacts and sunken treasure. It's not suppose to remove any good metal at all. If it was mine and I was sure that a restoration, wouldn't hurt the value.....this is the process I'd use.
Reply:Bein' mostly iron, I wonder if it might do a good job as a plant food for some of the bushes etc. around your house. Put it on something that you won't miss if it doesn't work out.
Reply:I think this is a great process! Other than the "soda" the other parts can probably be reused over & over again, at least it appears so. Gonna save you money on grinding disc's & flap disc's, & no damage to the part you are working on.Additionaly, two days of it sitting in a bath frees up two days for you to work on something else. I don't know what, maybe a bad a** eagle?Thanks for the insight! Brian_______________________________1) MM 211mvp w/ spoolgun2) Lincoln A/C-2253) Radnor O/P
Reply:Originally Posted by ProficientBumblerI think this is a great process! Other than the "soda" the other parts can probably be reused over & over again, at least it appears so. Gonna save you money on grinding disc's & flap disc's, & no damage to the part you are working on.Additionaly, two days of it sitting in a bath frees up two days for you to work on something else. I don't know what, maybe a bad a** eagle?Thanks for the insight!
Reply:When placing the sacrifical anodes (metal strips) there needs to be a "line of sight" between the strip and the piece being cleaned....eg. if you were cleaning a can, you would want a strip inside the can. Not just around the outside. More seems to work better, and don't let them touch the piece being cleaned.Last edited by SWells; 10-02-2008 at 01:19 AM.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Originally Posted by SWellsThanks again kepe, it would not have come out as good as it did if it wasn't for the coaching you provided over on John's site, it is appreciated. You get some of the credit for the results!
Reply:Originally Posted by SWells Is there a hint in there . You got it PB, you will have to replace the metal strips, they were heavily pitted (25%-30% metal missing) after the first piece. For the cost of the soda, I suspect I'll wash out the tub and start fresh again with new metal and solution next batch I do.
Reply:Sorry, forgot to ask...did you use the same metal strips for the separate parts as you did the main part of the shear?  You didn't have to change them out after the body did you?Brian_______________________________1) MM 211mvp w/ spoolgun2) Lincoln A/C-2253) Radnor O/P
Reply:About the parts in the basket ( nuts, bolts, pins, etc..etc ) wouldn't being behind that metal cage inhibit the removal process?  Im thinking faraday cage, but could be wrong.  Plastic maybe??Just a thought.  Glad to see a 'how to'... i have some rusty stuff that needs a good cleaning.  Thanks.
Reply:PB, yes I reused the metal strips on the second batch, but I doubt I'll get a third use from them I'll wipe one down and post a pic once finished round#2.Slamdvw, I hope by leaving it in long enough it will catch that too. I have been giving the basket a shake from time to time. You would have to wire each piece together to get the - current to it if using plastic....may as well hang it.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2An old machinist friend gave me a garbage can full of cast iron chips; he says they make good 'fertilizer' for around roses, but I'll melt them one of these days. Whether they, or the 'crud' above would be useful partly depends on your soil and what already is in it. Too much iron can make uptake of Magnesium harder, and Mag. is needed for chlorophyll.If they are really collectors items, their 'monetary value' is best if they are left alone. I've never been good at selling things; anyway, the 'sentimental' value value usually counts more to me.......The size or thickness of the parts will make no difference on the electrolytic action, but hooking the wires up backwards will. You can always test the process using different concentrations or even trying bicarb. (which also should work) to see what you like best.Try some scrap metal, some rusty cans, some small pieces with inside corners to see whether those get done last or at all.
Reply:Thanks SWells & Kepe!Great info!Love learning new stuff!Brian_______________________________1) MM 211mvp w/ spoolgun2) Lincoln A/C-2253) Radnor O/P
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI know exactly what you mean about restoration and the value.  Better left alone.Dad passed in April.  I don't want to sell the trucks.  I want to keep them.  It was always a treat to be allowed to play with them when I was little.  A bus, Mack dump, and a Mack tanker.  I'd like to see them looking like they were when his parents gave them to him.Same with the 64' Dodge Coronet sittin' out in the yard (2 door, 318 wide block, 3 speed on the column, and it still runs well).  Dad bought it new, and drove it until he lost his license.  The money went to buy Mom a new car once in a while.  Plymouth Fury III, and later a Ford Crown Vic.  He always wanted her in a big car because it was safer.  When my Grandfather died, Dad gave his 56' Dodge to Mom because it was big.  That man placed a lot of value on his family.  I miss him.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2If they are really collectors items, their 'monetary value' is best if they are left alone. I've never been good at selling things; anyway, the 'sentimental' value value usually counts more to me.......Interesting kepe, so the older (more collectible) stuff is not painted, any idea around what year that painting started. Secondly, what do you mean by japanned? And lastly, what the heck is the shear I have worth, what would an older japanned one be worth? Thanks for letting me pick your brain again.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:You might also want to look in to a product called "Evap-o-rust".  I saw it for sale at Harbor Freight tools, but I'm certain you can buy it on-line.  It doesn't require electricity to strip rust.  I think you do need to warm the solution up for optimal performance, but otherwise it's dunk the parts and let'em sit.Despite the goofy, "Late night TV Ad Name", it actually works.  I've seen it used on an industrial production line to rescue parts that rusted in storage.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Originally Posted by SWellsInteresting kepe, so the older (more collectible) stuff is not painted, any idea around what year that painting started. Secondly, what do you mean by japanned? And lastly, what the heck is the shear I have worth, what would an older japanned one be worth? Thanks for letting me pick your brain again.
Reply:Thanks for posting this, I am going to try it on a couple rusty items I have, one being an old Airco cast iron oval from an airco "I" and the other would be a really rusty vicegrip that I have. -DanOwnerDW Metalworks LLCMiller Trailblazer 302Miller 8RC FeederMiller Passport PlusMiller Dynasty 200 DX W/Coolmate 1Hobart Handler 135Hypertherm PowerMAX 30Smith O/A Torch SetPlus much much more
Reply:2 1/2 days is really overkill, I bet you would of had the same results in 2 hours.  This method works surprisingly fast, I only let the heaviest of rusted parts sit for more than overnight.Looks good though, I love the look when you first take something out and wash it off.  It looks so much different.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Kepe;          What I meant was, with some things like guns, the greatest value stays with those in 'New' condition and drops with increasing wear and usage. Even so, that 'original' wear and patina is preferred to any restoration. This idea also applies to toys and many other objects but what really counts hereis what Farmersamm wants , not what someone else thinks of  its value.Another way to remove rust is to soak parts in Oxalic acid which is also sold as a wood bleach. This is stronger than acetic but not active enough to react with iron metal, just the rust. I've never tried using it together with electrolysis which might be too energetic for some purposes, but have used it  for lots of iron and steel parts, for example the legs of a pot belly stove.
Reply:Oldiron2, I hear ya man! I have a couple of WWII vintage weapons....I don't touch them with anything but a duster and a little gun oil every couple of years.sn0border88, 2 hours is not enough time for anything other than minor surface rust. I would much rather do 2.5 days and know the rust is totally gone.....my $.02.
Reply:Kepe, I agree. Just watching the reaction in the bucket it was going strong even at 12 hours. It started to slow down around 1 1/2 days, I left it in a day after that just to make sure. I doubt that 2 hours would give good results.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Nice.  Sure beats using a wire brush/wheel or some other method involving abrasive action.Slow but steady and no damage. IIRC, you need to have a goodly amount of surface area on the sacrificial anode(s).  To small of a surface area and they crud-up or disappear too fast.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:MoonRise, yup, you are spot on!
Reply:I personally know that in my tank 2 hours will remove a substantial amount of rust, thats just my opinion.  Not perfectly but from what I saw in the pictures I dont even consider that heavy rust, its still got paint on it in most parts and isnt horribly pitted or flaking.I have taken 2 identical radius arms off of one truck and treated them both.  They were heavily rusted and pitted and in identical condition because they were from the same truck.  I left the one soak for about 12 hours (overnight) and the other for 36 (one day more than the first)  They came out identical.Maybe I run mine with more juice, or more solution that allows it to work faster.  But thats just what I have seen firsthand.Another thing you can do is use stainless electrodes, I cut strips that hang the full length of the barrel and they still look like new after many uses.If I were to make another tank and I would know id be getting alot of use from it I would consider taking a stainless tank (old water heater shell or something like that) and turning the whole thing into a tank.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:I'd still run the process longer than 2 hours. I, personally, want to ensure all of the rust if gone prior to paint. It does no damage to leave it for a day or two...none. 12V/2A is plenty of power for a typical small container. I haven;t noticed any considerable difference if I use more amps. The slower the process, the better the results.....ask SWells and I bet he would agree.WARNING:Here is the reason I would not use stainless steel as the anode:http://antique-engines.com/stainless...electrodes.htmEnough said on that subject.Last edited by kepe; 10-03-2008 at 05:11 PM.
Reply:Snoborder88, I'm glad to hear it working for you. I doubt that I could have gotten the results I wanted in a couple hours. Being the first time for me with this, I watched it pretty closely and It was just getting rolling after 12 hours. Maybe it's the tank, the solution, the anodes, or amps your putting in it that makes the difference.....I don't know. If it's working for you, keep doing it! Kepe makes a good point (and backs it up) about the health concerns with SS. I wouldn't take the risk.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Hey SWells, are you ever going to put that fire out on your bench, or are you heating your garage with it  Is that a disco ball hanging above the bench Fire!, Fire! Oh wait, that's my torch...Lincoln PT-225 TIGLincoln 175 MIG
Reply:Nah Vipernut, I live in Canada....extra heat is a good thing! It's not a disco light it's my mad scientist light. Kinda like a Van de Gaffe (?) generator (daughter was gonna throw it out and I claimed it).If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Here's the latest, after hanging an 8' fluorescent light over my bench I moved on to the shear. First up, a pic of the clean small pieces. These sat in the tank for about 3.5 days (didn't get a chance to do much with it). A day before I took them out, I pulled the anodes and wiped them off, seemed to greatly improve the reaction. They look great after a quick clean up with a wire wheel.The base after painting, I used a Tremclad spray bomb, probably should have used something tougher but it was what I had on hand.Here's the smaller pieces drying after paintHere's one of the used anodes, There is a significant amount of pitting and deterioration after the second batch. If you try this, the anodes are worth paying attention to. Use lots of them, properly placed (remember the "line of sight" thing) and if they crud up too much wipe them off. All that's left is to get it back together again.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:Looks real good so far.It ain't your grandma's box!!
Reply:Originally Posted by kepeWARNING:Here is the reason I would not use stainless steel as the anode:http://antique-engines.com/stainless...electrodes.htmEnough said on that subject.
Reply:duane, I don't know much about hydrogen generators, but I will educate myself on them and let you know my thoughts on it.
Reply:SWells, that was Van de Graff generator; I hear they are good to hook up to spare leads and water faucets to keep them from 'corroding' away at night. re Chromium:  I used to to analyze samples using dichromate which was quantitatively reduced to chromic ions, whose concentration could be read as adsorbence at 610  nanometers, (if my memory serves me right). Anyway, it's not a good idea to dump such elements into the environment (as the Government did at that time!), but the ion is not the hazard the Government would now have you believe either; in fact, chromium is required by animals as a trace mineral for some enzymes and is naturally occurring in most soils. As with most things, it's a matter of amount, not  detectable presence or not.
Reply:SWells, thanks again for continuing the post. The parts turned out great.You are right, there is quite a bit of pitting, erosion... on the anodes after your 2nd round, but is there enough left to clean them up a bit & use them again, or will they just need scrapped & start over with new ones? Or is it even worth the effort to attempt to get them to be re-usable? Kinda hard to tell from the pics.Thanks again for the info on "line of sight" and plenty of anodes. Good tip!The shear looks good cleaned up & painted!Brian_______________________________1) MM 211mvp w/ spoolgun2) Lincoln A/C-2253) Radnor O/P
Reply:Thanks Brian, I probably will be able to use them again....after a good cleaning.If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
Reply:It's really turning out great.  I've never seen such perfection in restoring old iron.  The process really works."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by SWellsThanks Brian, I probably will be able to use them again....after a good cleaning.
Reply:I'll do that, it may be a while before I do anything else though. Yes they are 1/8" X 1".If you don't want to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them.