Wrought-iron-style fence as first project?

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I live in Los Angeles, where lawn space is a pretty scarce commodity.  My wife and I have a new kid and a tiny patch of grass in our front lawn that would be great for him to crawl and stumble around on -- if it weren't for the steep drop-off of our front retaining wall.Here's a look at the front of the house:We were all out walking the other day and we noticed a neighbor with a wrought-iron-style fence on top of their retaining wall.  I recently got a welder for myself, and the wife suggested that a similar fence might be a good use for it.  'Could I do something like that?' she asked.Well, of course the answer is no.  At least, not without the advice of some guys who know how to do this kind of thing.The neighbor's fence is made in a kind of rudimentary way.  It doesn't use punched channel.  It's just a set of 9' rectangles made of 1-1/4" square tube with 3/4" square tube pickets and standard finials.  We looked at some other fences and agreed that we'd prefer slightly-less-thick dimensions for our fence.  I'm thinking 1" square tube for the frame and 5/8" for the pickets.  She wants the same type of construction -- no punched channel.  Here's another look at the wall.  The idea is to pull out some of the landscaping, put in some more grass.  The fence will be about 32" high.  (I'm pretty sure I'm okay with that, relative to local zoning.)My questions:1) Is this going to be a nightmare with my HH140 Mig welder?  It seems pretty straightforward -- but then, a lot of things look easy when you've never done them.  2) Is 16 gauge tubing the right way to go?  I could go thicker on the 1" frame pieces, but if 16 is good all around I'll go that way.3) I'd like to leave the wall as it is, assuming the whole thing will come down when the kid is big enough.  To this end, I was thinking of capping the wall with a 1-inch thick piece of wood (the feet for each section could bolt to the wood), with buttress pieces coming up from behind the wall that would be seated in concrete post holes.  4) Is there anything I'm missing?  I've got the welder, a steel-cutting band saw, the normal set of other tools (hammer, grinder, clamps, magnets) and safety gear.  I'm prepared to do a lot of practice welds before I jump into the real thing.
Reply:You can do this...one thought instead of mounting it to the top of the wall maybe just behind it.Make your posts a few feet longer and drive them into the dirt.Reason is so in a few years when you do not need it anymore you will not have to repair the wall.Be sure to use a spacer block for your pickets so all are the same.
Reply:You can probably get everything precut and punched channel for vendors such as king metals.I agree with going directly into the ground.
Reply:Thanks.  I can see the benefits of the pre-cut chanel for the top lateral piece.  But if I did both the top and the bottom with the pre-punched channel, wouldn't the result have less sag resistance than two horizontal lengths of 1" square tubing?Also, in terms of going into the ground (which I assume means also setting it in concrete), what about this idea to keep the fence centered on the wall, but to also be able to go down 16-18" into the ground?  The idea is to use a piece of square plate as a foot.  But then also have an L-shaped piece attached right behind the vertical that conforms to the shape of the wall and drops down into a hole filled with concrete.
Reply:Hmm...I would not think that you would need any concrete...just drive the post like a stake.Should be solid enough and if you follow the corner even better.Now if you were going 8 or 10' high you would need some cement
Reply:If you are sure they are going to be removed, then I was thinking of digging holes and setting them gravel.  If you were uncomfortable with that the use concrete on selected posts.  The fence system would be quite strong provided your welds hold.  By the way you machine will handle this job, easily.If your span is less than 6 feet the sag won't be problem.  Good luck.
Reply:As long as you plan ahead and come up with a fixture for your sections, you should be good to go.  I would mount the fence to the wall, but that's just me.  I think it would be a selling point in the future for the very reason you are installing it now, but again, that's my opinion.  Keep us updated.
Reply:King just started handling metal fence sections. They come 8' long and powder coated. 42" is $68 for eight feet long. You can't build them and have them powder coated for that.
Reply:you have to bulid them yourself! you'll be proud of the project at the end, dont listen to Bob!
Reply:I have a friend that lives in LA . I just love that SoCal foliage. I have 5 acres in Va, but there's something about a palm tree in the yard ......Jack, forget about that fancy right angle mess just to get the fence over the wall. It's way too much work, and it would look WEIRD. Either put it in the ground right behind the wall (it would look just fine), or do it like your neighbors - bolt it to the wall (not as hard as it looks).Good luck. Be careful, think it through, and expect it to take 3 times longer than you planned. The wife will be thrilled.Edit: If you do it yourself, build a simple jig with 2 x 4s or similar. That way you can set them in and space them evenly. They'll all be parallel, and it will look professional. And it will save you time in the long run. A crooked fence is like an ugly wi ..wi... wi.....weld.Last edited by artworksmetal; 04-05-2009 at 08:49 PM."We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities. "   - Oscar WildeMaxstar STL150Eagle CPM30 Bender
Reply:there is safty code on how far the upright pickets are spaced i think it is 4 inch max in between might want to check that out good luck
Reply:Thanks for the responses.  I'm doing some digging on local zoning rules.  It turns out I won't need a permit.  But the height limits are something I've still got to get a definite answer on.I'm re-thinking a couple of my initial design ideas.  The section of the retaining wall that faces the street is 40' long.  I'm considering five 8' panels with an upper and a lower horizontal of punched channel and with uprights in between.  Something like this image I found in a search, but with only two horizontal pieces: The channel I'm hoping I could source would be 1" wide with 4" centers for the 5/8" pickets.  King Metal's website only lists channel with 1/2" holes.  But maybe I missed it.I'm also thinking about sinking in anchors (I think there's an adhesive made for this) into the wall.  The fact that the fence will wrap around 20' on each side (in a C-shape) will add some rigidity to it.  I'm dropping the idea of a wood cap between the retaining wall and the fence.Some questions:1) I've changed from four 10' panels to five 8' panels to reduce the possibility of sag.  Would it be smarter to go to eight 5' panels?  It looks to me like the punched channel would be less stout than box tubing, but I might be wrong.2) Since the uprights would only be supporting 34" of height, do you think it would be viable to make them on the small side -- like 1"x5/8" rectangular tubing so that they would visually match the width of the vertical pickets?  My guess would be that this size would have a similar resistance to being tilted out toward the sidewalk or in toward the yard as 1" square tubing, and  the overall C-shape of this fence makes me think I won't need very substantial upright posts for this fence.  3) I'm assuming the punched channel would be less prone to warping than welding all of the pickets to one side of a length of aquare tubing.  But here's a total newbie question: if I didn't take steps to counter the warpage, would the square tubing bow out to the heated side, or in?  (In other words, would my fence bow out to the street or in toward the yard?)And I will definitely make a jig.  That's a great idea.Bob, the pre-fabbed sections would probably be the smarter way to go.  But I never claimed to be all that smart.    Enough of this is going to have to be custom that I think I'd rather be responsible for the whole mess.And artworksmetal, I agree the palm trees are nice.  But imagine trying to fit your whole life onto a 1/8-of-an-acre parcel.  It's crazy.
Reply:This past year at the welding shop where I was working we did a couple fence projects, in the $10,000 to $15,000 range, we used 1'' tubing for the horizontals and half inch tubing for the pickets, we used 1 1/4'' brackets on 2'' tubing post and bolted fence sections between the post. on one project the fence sections were mounted between brick pillars with a central metal post, the other was around a pool and were screwed down to the concrete deck. Lenths varied on the two projects, but between 6' and 8' any longer and sagging will be a problem. With lighter horizontals could be a problem anyway. With a child, I wouldn't go any wider than 4" spacing on the pickets.Rob H.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack Olsen1) I've changed from four 10' panels to five 8' panels to reduce the possibility of sag.  Would it be smarter to go to eight 5' panels?  It looks to me like the punched channel would be less stout than box tubing, but I might be wrong.2) Since the uprights would only be supporting 34" of height, do you think it would be viable to make them on the small side -- like 1"x5/8" rectangular tubing so that they would visually match the width of the vertical pickets?  My guess would be that this size would have a similar resistance to being tilted out toward the sidewalk or in toward the yard as 1" square tubing, and  the overall C-shape of this fence makes me think I won't need very substantial upright posts for this fence.  3) I'm assuming the punched channel would be less prone to warping than welding all of the pickets to one side of a length of aquare tubing.  But here's a total newbie question: if I didn't take steps to counter the warpage, would the square tubing bow out to the heated side, or in?  (In other words, would my fence bow out to the street or in toward the yard?)And I will definitely make a jig.  That's a great idea.Bob, the pre-fabbed sections would probably be the smarter way to go.  But I never claimed to be all that smart.    Enough of this is going to have to be custom that I think I'd rather be responsible for the whole mess.And artworksmetal, I agree the palm trees are nice.  But imagine trying to fit your whole life onto a 1/8-of-an-acre parcel.  It's crazy.
Reply:Thanks, 48willys/Rob.  I'll remind my wife of that number from time to time.  And I'll add some kind of multiplier for what the going rate would be in an overpriced city like this one.  Artworksmetal, I think I'll go with the channel.  My pickets will be 5/8" tubing (although I'll probably get a price on solid stock to see what the difference is).  And I'm not German, although my old Volkswagen does sometimes get a wheel airborne when it's at the track.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jack OlsenAnd I'm not German, although my old Volkswagen does sometimes get a wheel airborne when it's at the track.