Upside down welding...

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So, a few questions...  I pulled the trigger on a major project requiring a lot of difficult welding...  I managed to pull it off, but would like to know what I could do to get better welds next time.   1) I had some difficulty doing an upside down weld on a truck frame...  On this page -> http://www.joeynovak.com/wiki/index....tening_a_Truck at the section called "Overhead Welding" you can see the picture of my horrible upside down welds.  The rest of the welds were OK.  So any tips on how to do these?  I know proper fitting would have helped, even the ones that fit well were a no go.  2) Welding over thick paints.  The rear of the truck frame was covered with a cheap bed liner material.  I cleaned this off before doing the critical welds, but for a few minor brackets, I just spent a little more time forming the puddle until the bed liner was burned off, then extended the puddle to the other piece I was trying to join.  Tell me, do any of you ever do this?  Joey
Reply:P.S.  The upside down welds I am referring to, is the bottom piece, the one where the welds are horizontal and not vertical.
Reply:first by "upside down" you mean over headsecond don't weld through bed liner ,paint ,rust,grease or dirt .clean metal onlythat will help a lot .and neet little truck thingChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:Is there a catagoery within the annual automobile accident statistics titled "People who have died in an accident as a direct result of THEIR own handy work?" If not I think there should be...... Dude what are you doing? I know the whole truck shortening idea is a cool project and all but there are some things you shouldn't be attempting to do yourself with only 6 hrs experience. That is what I read right? Anyway what you should have done was have all the prep work done as far as the cutting and and aligning and what not ...then called someone who is capable to come out and do the welding for you. Maybe you could have watched what he did and asked some questions too. What's with this statement.... QUOTE "I actually burned a fairly larger hole in the drivers side frame rail while welding on the outside plate. I was bummed, until I realized that there were holes larger then that all over the frame, so I didn't even bother to patch it."  Holes larger than that? What holes would those be? BOLT HOLES? RIVET HOLES? Maybe some "T" Hook slots? Something from the factory that was designed to be there. Because if the hole isn't factory it's not supposed to be there which would indicate to me that your frame is rotted out, which in turn explains the "other places it seems just soda can thin... " comment. I'm not slamming you as a person or trying to discourage you from doing what you enjoy. It's totally awesome that you want to weld but you need to perform work within your capabilities. Remember this.....unless you have no intentions of ever driving that jalopy on the road, you are not only putting yourself at risk but the people around you as well.  I hope you at least have your handy work looked at by a PROFESSIONAL welder... not a mechanic (I'm sure this comment will twist someones panties, no offense, but most of them have no right striking an arc either).I feel that I have to make this post and hopefully the other people who read this thread and know the importance of welding a frame will support what I said. Food for thought.... The next time you find yourself climbing to the top of a 300ft steel roller coaster and the car is just cresting the top starting its decent.... ask yourself if you want the guys that welded this ride together to have had more than 6 hours under their lids.Last edited by lorenzo; 12-28-2006 at 05:32 PM._________________Chris
Reply:well put   but don't give up on welding
Reply:well put X2I'm not quite sure what you were thinking taking on a project like this but next time ...dont..learn to weld properly before hand and spare yourself the misery.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Well put! Originally Posted by lorenzo.....I hope you at least have your handy work looked at by a PROFESSIONAL welder... not a mechanic (I'm sure this comment will twist someones panties, no offense, but most of them have no right striking an arc either).
Reply:I agree with what lorenzo said I'm still at a loss on why in hell you would what a short azzute like that it looks ugly and surely couldn't be legal I like this quote from your site about the truck thing I am not the greatest welder in the world. I have no actual training. And, have probably only spent about 20 hours (10 of which I gained on this project) welding in my life. So to put the odds of a sucesful weld job in my favor famous last words good on you for having a go but if I were you I'd learn alot more about welding before tryin some like that again that has peoples and your own life at risk Creative metal Creative metal Facebook
Reply:did ya weld it with the car batteries?DewayneDixieland WeldingMM350PLincoln 100Some torchesOther misc. tools
Reply:Holy Crap!  You guys are rough...  littlefuzz:  No I didn't use the batteries...    Everyone else:  An article written to inspire visions of a fiery death promote more hits then one that insures everyone's confidence.  Although everything I said is true, I spent absolutely no time at all stating why I did these things without the typical qualifications...FIRST MY DEFENSE:  So, for those of you that are worried...  First, the odds of your tire popping due to bad alignment that causes the inside edge of the tire to disappear before the outside (which you see daily) is about as likely as my welds failing.    I checked the welds regularly, I still check them every time I go under to look for cracking etc...  Of course, someone will reply saying that they could weaken due to stress and me not see it, I am doing everything I can to make sure they are good.    As for the large holes, Come on guys???  You think I can't see frame rot?  There is no frame rot.  It looked more to me like the metal was stretched when they "rolled" the frame so some of the corners are thin.  The hole REALLY isn't that large. maybe a 3/4" slit.NOW MY OFFENSE:  There seems to be a problem in our society of listening. I asked two questions and NO ONE has answered these yet??  I should have known, I mean a forum would be inside our society, so why am I surprised??  I didn't ask what you thought about welding through rust, paint, etc...  (and there is no rust btw...  the bed liner protected it from that) I asked if any of you had ever done it yourselves.  I also asked about upside down welding.  Because, upside down was what I was doing, while you may call it "overhead" I choose the word "upside down" because that distinguishes the "type" of overhead welding I was doing, all the welding I did was over my head.  (In more way then one according to some of your worlds).  I did the vertical "overhead" welding just fine, but the "horizontal" overhead welding was not so good.  And not just horizontal, but UPSIDE DOWN horizontal welding...  AKA.  the puddle is being pulled down by gravity with no metal between the puddle and air in the direction of gravity.  In fact, the only metal that is around the weld is in a plane that is almost perfectly orthogonal to the force vector of gravity, thus, making it very hard...  So again,  any tips on doing "upside down" overhead welding...  Anyways, I have wasted enough of my time, but, it did feel kind of good.  (Writing this post, not doing the truck)  I am still interested in either a) tips on how to do upside down overhead welding, or b) anyone else's personal experience of making "dirty" welds...   Joey
Reply:Here we go...http://all-a-cart.comWelding Cart Kits and accessories
Reply:Maybe no one wants to give you tips because they don't want to become part of the problem that you are possibly creating.  I'm a noob, so I'm not gonna give you any advice.  No one really gives a crap if you kill yourself should a major malfunction occur with your welds at high speed.   But it's awfully arrogant to not even worry about the lives of the other people that you are endangering.   Typical selfish, me-first, behavior.
Reply:Originally Posted by kf4oij... In fact, the only metal that is around the weld is in a plane that is almost perfectly orthogonal to the force vector of gravity, thus, making it very hard...  So again,  any tips on doing "upside down" overhead welding...    Joey
Reply:Holy Crap! You guys are rough...
Reply:Originally Posted by kf4oijHoly Crap!  You guys are rough...  First, the odds of your tire popping due to bad alignment that causes the inside edge of the tire to disappear before the outside (which you see daily) is about as likely as my welds failing.  Joey
Reply:Lorenzo,  Glad you have overcome the denial phase of being a perfectionist...  "I'll let you know that when I weld something I do it to the best of my abilities no matter what it is."  Sorry, it's just not a philosophy I subscribe to.  America would have starved in the early 20th century if farmers always did "the best of their abilities" no matter what it was.  They didn't have the resources to do "the best of their abilities".  I do believe in not putting others at risk, and you guys have judged my truck as dangerous without bothering to get any more information about it, or my abilities.  For all you know, I could be a welding prodigy...  Or, perhaps, 5 hours of non-stop practice of the same type of weld for me, is worth a year of 1 hour a day practice.  I doubt it, but my welds will hold.  I am starting to think I will never learn anything from you guys.  Oh well,  I guess your sacred oracles of knowledge are too priceless to bestow upon anyone that may taint your image.Perhaps if you were really concerned about other people, you would help me improve my skills instead of just saying "You Ain't Got none, and you ain't invited to the club."If any of you choose to overcome your pride and bestow a little grace of knowledge to the amatuer welder willing to learn, you know where to find me.I won't be frequenting this forum any more, although from the sounds of it, I won't be missed.  Joey
Reply:I am starting to think I will never learn anything from you guys.
Reply:man im glad i read this thread.  ill make sure i practice alot more before welding on my car.  luckily all the welding i need to do on it is on non structual parts of my car that won't weaken the integrity of it, just basic sheetmetal work...Millermatic 135.  i learn to weld by practicing on this...
Reply:Originally Posted by 68b_bodyman im glad i read this thread.  ill make sure i practice alot more before welding on my car.  luckily all the welding i need to do on it is on non structual parts of my car that won't weaken the integrity of it, just basic sheetmetal work...
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterJust learned something...Did'nt ya?  ...zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by 68b_bodyyea don't do somthing stupid and post it for everyone to read
Reply:first things you are getting the combined comments of more likely over 150 yrs of welding from all that have had a say so far as for your overheads do them with much the same angles and little less heat than downhand better still doing this sort of work a mig would be better than stick as for welding over paint or crap you should never do it clean clean prep work is going to play alot on the final weld you guys have judged my truck as dangerous without bothering to get any more information about itI judged dangerous by reading your website and looking at the thing I ignored heat warpage, mostly out of impatience never a good thing to do could have a bad affect on a Major section that your lack of welding skills didn't pick up My Dad always said that most of welding is getting comfortableyour dad was partly right getting comfortable is important so is prep having the right gear and skill the skill comes with time other things that come to mind are things like tail-shaft angle shortening the tailshaft did get it rebalanced ?don't know rego rules over there it would never get on the road if you want to read and learn more about welding heres a site that may help http://www.millerwelds.com/education/library.html Creative metal Creative metal Facebook
Reply:Originally Posted by kf4oij "I'll let you know that when I weld something I do it to the best of my abilities no matter what it is."  Sorry, it's just not a philosophy I subscribe to.  America would have starved in the early 20th century if farmers always did "the best of their abilities" no matter what it was.  They didn't have the resources to do "the best of their abilities".    Joey
Reply:i thought i did answer at least one of your questionsChuckASME Pressure Vessel welder
Reply:when welding on really dirty steel use a 6011 and whip in and out of the puddle, you're trying to burn away the trash before the puddle reaches it, once you have some meat to deal with go over it with a low hydrogen rod-7018.  its best to get someone who knows how to do this to show you how,  its very difficult to describe.  getting comfortable is definitely important, but to me seventy percent of welding is controlling your heat, i don't mean at the box either.  with stick welding its angles, arc length and most importantly time spent in the puddle.  as you noticed with over head gravity will pull it off when its molten,  this takes to deal with, again your best bet is to find someone to show you how.  also something to consider is its definitely possible to put too much weldment and have it fail in the heat affected zone.Joey:I like your project.  It shows a great deal of imagination.  I am wondering how long it will take until a local cop will nab you for a safety inpection.  Ah to be young again.     Thirty years from now you will be asked a question about something technical and you will come back with the fast answer.  When asked how you know you will reference some ridiuclous thing you made or did in your youth and survived to tell about it.  Often your project will end up a disaster but you will have LEARNED.  It happens to me more frequently as I get older.
Reply:You look like you did a decent job for a backyard project.  That is my honest opinon from what I've seen on your site (also why can I edit your site?).  Everyone here just wants to make sure that you dont get hurt or hurt others.  They may be a little "harsh" but thats just tough love friend.  For me, I think you did a good job so long as you're welds are safe and it looks like a neat little project.  So far as holes in the frame? Yes there are plenty on everyframe, but they are placed in no stress or low stress places.   Hell Ford unibody cars look like swiss cheese, but there isnt a hole thats not placed in the calculated place, so for you, patch any holes you put in there as it may in fact be in a place that is load bearing and could fatigue over time.  But enjoy your project truck, inspect regularly like I would hope ANYONE would do with ANY vehicle.  Again, keep practicing, overhead welds area bitch, im accually about to weld some floor pans in a 67Bug so I'll have some ugly welds to show off.Have a good one,Chuck(edited for spellin, probably needs to be edited agian)
Reply:Originally Posted by kf4oij2) Welding over thick paints.  The rear of the truck frame was covered with a cheap bed liner material.  I cleaned this off before doing the critical welds, but for a few minor brackets, I just spent a little more time forming the puddle until the bed liner was burned off, then extended the puddle to the other piece I was trying to join.  Tell me, do any of you ever do this?Joey
Reply:Well, 6011 or if you have access to a dc welder 6010 is easier to work with on overhead welds. A mig welder with about 200 amp capacity would have been my choice. Auto and light truck frames aren't as consistent size and shape as they used to be. This makes it difficult to make an effective doubler for frame splicing, even for an expert. Most of this type of hot rodding work would have fabricated the back half of the frame if not the entire frame. In cases where the vehicle gets a back half welded on and the spliced area doubled the frame can be much stronger by welding in a roll cage. A simple roll bar won't do anything for you. To keep this short check publications from NHRA or NASCAR for design specs and welding methods for roll cages. I know this went beyond the scope of your question but when you splice a frame and start hot rodding around there really isn't place that you can stop half way and say that's good enough. If you have a couple of hundred bucks to spend on a project spend it on education. Pick up a couple of night classes at a local vo-tech. Project cars come and go but what you'll learn will stay with you for life.
Reply:Ok, I know I am breaking a cardinal rule of posting by bringing this thread back to the surface, sorry.  But, I wanted to reply to those that gave me advice that I didn't know.FYI...  Truck is still running great, welds still look good, no tickets, no pull overs, and it is 100% legal in the State of South Carolina.To answer the questions lorenzo asked...    Joint Prep,  On the frame welds I used a side grinder with a sand paper wheel to remove all the rust and paint before even attempting to join them.  For the inside pieces I used the same tool, then followed up with a die grinder to get the spots I couldn't reach.  For the welder, it is an old, massive Linde welder.  I don't know what current because the welder isn't calibrated, it has a three selection main current selector, and then a potentiometer with tick marks from 1 to 10.  It is DC however, if it weren't for that, I probably would not have been able to finish the project.  Vertical Welds...  I don't remember what direction, I remember that one direction worked, and one didn't. So I used the direction that worked.  I believe it was bottom to top, but I honestly don't remember now.  Why that rod?  I figured the smaller diameter would let me use a lower current and it not be as sticky thus making the weld easier, and there was 10 lbs of it in the cabinet.  As for Wello  it is supposed to sound dangerous on the website, as I mentioend earlier, you get more website traffic if it sounds dangerous, that is why I wrote it that way.  I am certain I could have written it in a way that conveyed to everyone how concerned I was, and how careful I was to clean the important joints before welding, but then everyone would have said "Cool Project!" and that is it, this way it created so much forum traffic that I have gotten thousands of hits off it.  Thanks for the link Wello.  Thanks for the rusty welding instructions rusty ripple.  And thanks to those of you that understand what I did, and said I did a good job.      Joey
Reply:Oly Cow!  I just read the whole thing.Lorenzo, My thanks to you for speaking up.Kf4oij,  You came here asking for advice. You showed pics of your welds.Everyone here would help you learn to be a better welder like they have for me.  I am a mechanic.  I have welded a few frames or so.  You were told by Real professional welders the stuff you did isn't safe.  I am also a welder for 30 years part time.  I took welding in college.   I am a New York State Motor vehicle inspector.  If you brought that into my shop, first I would be interested in the project.  Then when I saw the stuff you had pics of I would not even let you drive that away.  For New York State to have frame welded on, you need a WPS.  That is welding pricedure specs.    ROD type, amps, position, groove angle, position......  You don't even know what rod was used.  "The stuff in the cabnet" won't cut it in my state.  Welds DO break when done improperly.  Frames break from new occasionally.If you were to come back here and ask for help on overhead welding people would give you advice and want to see pictures of your progress.  They would be a genuine help if you wanted it and tried to use the advice.Showing us what you did and driving it anyway after you were told by professionals what they thought.......Think about it.It wasn't a total loss, I saw one person realized what was going on and decided to improve their skills before attempting anything like what you did.These guys can be hard and have ben hard on me too.As for position, you were asked if you welded the verticles up or down.  See the thread in this section about up and down welding.  You stated you can't even remember which way you went.  Its far more important than that.I once saw a VW bus that was shortened.   Cool project when done right.Moderators I will gladly delete this if its a personal attack.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I would ride in it, lord knows I rode in bigger pieces of ****... however I do remember a time when I was 16 I took a partner saw to 2 old hondas and used the front half of each to make a push me pull me
Reply:Here check this link since the guys here are mean I'm sure they'll be more understanding!http://www.welding.org/newsletters/s...4/imagine.html
Reply:since the guys here are mean
Reply:I am not a pro, I just pretend to be...... as long as my bubblegum holds I b a good welder eh?
Reply:I am surprised it is legal. I built a trailer and when it was inspected for road worthyness they sure checked my welds. If they hadn't been satisfied it would never have been allowed on the road and thats a trailer not a truck.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterwe are all pro's here...zap!
Reply:Listen...... I don't care that you've been looking at the welds and they're still fine. You sound like my 8 year old when I tell him not to do things because someone might get hurt. When he does it anyway and no one gets hurts he comes back with the "I know you told me not to do it but no one got hurt!" And just like my 8 year old you fail to see the point of the warning. For this particular application IMO....... ingorance._________________Chris
Reply:Lorenzo this guy is too busy convincing himself that he did an ok job and we all know he is wrong for doing what he did, The fact of the matter is He will never change so lets just hope he doesn't pick up a welding aparatus ever again as he gives the industry a bad example of caftsmanship which I know you and others in here have at an expense of many hours under the hood acquired.Another thing just because  a guy can weld doesn't mean he has the knowledge to of every aspect of the industry. I totaly respect you showing your true feeling's and hopefully others will take heed.
Reply:Originally Posted by kf4oijhttp://www.joeynovak.com/wiki/index....tening_a_Truck
Reply:Originally Posted by lorenzoListen...... I don't care that you've been looking at the welds and they're still fine. You sound like my 8 year old when I tell him not to do things because someone might get hurt. When he does it anyway and no one gets hurts he comes back with the "I know you told me not to do it but no one got hurt!" And just like my 8 year old you fail to see the point of the warning. For this particular application IMO....... ingorance.
Reply:This is a prime example of coming here looking for appraisal rather than advice.  When he didn't get it, We all become the ones who are wrong.  I love when people come to this forum and ask how to improve on there welding ability only to have the predisposition that they aren't gonna listen when they are told.  If you didn't want to hear what you did wrong, then why did you ask how to improve it?   This is typical of an immature mind as Lorenzo pointed out earlier.   I have serious problems believing that truck is street legal.  For one the Gas tank is outside of the frame rails and provides no impact protection, and I would be willing to make a bet that your insurance company has not inspected what they are insuring either.   I have seen plenty of truck frames welded by pretty good welders on the farms around here, and a good number of those broke again.  This is not a situation of "if" they will fail, I promise you its WHEN they will.  My main concern isn't your safety because what you do to yourself is your business, rather its your lack of care for the others that could get hurt by your actions.  I will finish with a quote I read on your article.      "I actually burned a fairly large hole in the drivers side frame rail while welding on the outside plate. I was bummed, until I realized that there were holes larger then that all over the frame, so I didn't even bother to patch it."      I think that pretty much sums up your attitude thus the results of your project.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by kf4oijLorenzo,  Glad you have overcome the denial phase of being a perfectionist...  "I'll let you know that when I weld something I do it to the best of my abilities no matter what it is."  Sorry, it's just not a philosophy I subscribe to.  America would have starved in the early 20th century if farmers always did "the best of their abilities" no matter what it was.  They didn't have the resources to do "the best of their abilities".  I do believe in not putting others at risk, and you guys have judged my truck as dangerous without bothering to get any more information about it, or my abilities.  For all you know, I could be a welding prodigy...  Or, perhaps, 5 hours of non-stop practice of the same type of weld for me, is worth a year of 1 hour a day practice.  I doubt it, but my welds will hold.  I am starting to think I will never learn anything from you guys.  Oh well,  I guess your sacred oracles of knowledge are too priceless to bestow upon anyone that may taint your image.Perhaps if you were really concerned about other people, you would help me improve my skills instead of just saying "You Ain't Got none, and you ain't invited to the club."If any of you choose to overcome your pride and bestow a little grace of knowledge to the amatuer welder willing to learn, you know where to find me.I won't be frequenting this forum any more, although from the sounds of it, I won't be missed.  Joey
Reply:"upside down weld", so that's what the opposite of G1 is, always wondered what that was called...LOLSC probably has no "inspection" requirement and you can bet his insurance company, if he even has any, doesn't even know about this modification.You bunch of meanies...LOL
Reply:What I would do and loks cool is to cut make a little diamond shaped 1/4" plate about 12 inches loing and center that inbetween your slit. Do a few one inch holes in the plate that way you can weld the plate to the frame, and then do some "plug welds" in thoose holes , and you get all that weld surface area. Kind hard to see but its done to strengthen frames on wheelers and stuff. I would add some more bracing...