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Let me throw this out there to see what you guys think. Remember, I am just starting to work on my own, and still trying to get my pricing set.The space between the columns is exactly 24 feet. The fence will be made from 3" pipe that the customer is supplying. Each section will have 2 posts. One pipe across the top, and 2 across the middle. I will fish mouth (O/A torch) the tops of the posts to fit the top rail, and the 2 lower rails to match the post. The customer will later provide a CNC cut horse head for the center section, and 7" letters for the name of the ranch. This IS NOT part of this estimate. That will be a separate deal. The pipe will be welded to 1/2" x 3" x 4' stock which will be anchored to the bricks.Here is the price break down:Plate steel for ends - $80Anchor Bolts - $15Oxy/Ace gas - $6016 hours labor @ $40/hr - $64010% consumable fee - $79.50Mileage - $67.20 (.35/mile x 192)TOTAL - $941.70Comments? Attached Images
Reply:Not sure on the prices. Did you do the repair on the other posts with the rods going through them? If so, how did that turn out?Flashhttp://flashracecarbodies.com
Reply:I notice you mention each section has 2 posts. Who is setting these posts? If it's you, have you figured in time for this? Rental on a posthole digger if you plan to use one? Any idea what ground conditions are like if you have to dig, rocky ground is a PITA unless you are using a bobcat with a digger. How about concrete to set the posts, and a mixer? I would most likely figure 8 hrs min to do what I believe is 6 posts on your job. 8" dia hole 3' deep would require about 2-3 60-80 lb bags per hole. Oh remember, even if you use "quick setting" concrete the chances you can work on them much the day you set the posts is minimal. It's posible, but I'd figure to do the welding the next day.
Reply:Yeah, for got to mention that. It will go 1 of 2 ways. Either she is going to have a guy come that has a post driver on a tractor (he did the posts on all that fence), or, I will charge another days time plus an auger/cement.
Reply:Originally Posted by The FlashNot sure on the prices. Did you do the repair on the other posts with the rods going through them? If so, how did that turn out?
Reply:Why not pour the dry concrete or set stub/plates in the ground to weld post onto? Call the proper folk to see where the utility lines are running? It is free around here. Make sure you make a way to compensate for warpage of the top post. It will be quite visible over that span, and be quite time consuming to correct. Your price look good with the addition of what DSW stated.
Reply:so three sections 24' 72' in all that $13.08 a foot that seems lowLast edited by ed mac; 06-22-2009 at 11:08 PM.
Reply:I thank it would take me longer than 16 hours, what about a helper ? also i get 52 cents a mile
Reply:Originally Posted by JC'sWeldingYeah, I did those. See the thread called "Help filling these holes". It was a true PITA!Here's a link: http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=31400
Reply:Well, the customer called just a few minutes ago, and I had to go ahead and roll with what I had. I think the price was good. I gave her the total, and she couldn't believe it. So, I gave her the break down. She laughed at me! She said, "wait... you mean I have to pay for you to get here, then pay for the materials that you will use?" She really laughed at the mileage. I explained that for 2 days round trip was 192 miles. At .35 per mile, I thought it was fair. She said "You're even making money on that too!". I explained that my truck is a tool, and that there was more involved than just gas. She was literally laughing out load at me like a was a f-ing moron.Get this... She said "Well, the others welders didn't break it down like that with mileage and all, they just said $60/hr." So I told her, "Oh, ok, if you want me to just charge a flat hourly price, ok, then it's 16 hours at $60". That comes to $960, $20 more than the original estimate.Then she couldn't believe that it would be another $460 to dig the holes and set the posts. She said that should be included.She said she will have to talk to her husband, because they priced that vinyl fence stuff at $480 and they can do it them selves. I said "What are you going to do when your 10 year old son keeps running into it with the zero turn mower, or, hits it a few too many times with the weed eater?" Besides, what does she think the will weld the horse head and 7" letters to?Man, I just don't get it. But, someone told me last week that these horse people are notoriously cheap!Last edited by JC'sWelding; 06-22-2009 at 11:16 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by ed macso three sections 24' 72' in all that $13.08 a foot that seems low
Reply:Originally Posted by Craig in DenverI went to the link but you didn't say how you decided to fill all those holes. Pics?
Reply:I wouldn't do a whole breakdown for a customer, especially milage and drivetime.I'd break it down to labor, consumables, and materials and thats as far as I would go. I wouldn't even say how much per hour unless its T&M. I want $XXX in labor. The only reason I'd break it down for drive time & milage is if the job was a signifigant distance away and I'd be up front and say so.If you go and tell some that you will be spending $6.34 for bolts, they will turn around and say they can get it from Joe's hardware for $5.76. Oh and you can getthe concrete from Lowes for $1.00 less a bag, and Home Depot sells that pipe for less... They will want you to spend the day driving around to get the materials to save $15 or $20, and forget the 8 gallons of fuel and 8 hours it took to save it.Worse THEY will say they will supply the stuff. You show up and the steels are all galvy and you have to grind them to weld, the rods something thats been sitting in someones garage for 20 years open, You are 6 feet short of pipe or they bought it all in 4' lengths to get it in the car...I've had it happen on to many jobs for friends or jobs that I have to go in and fix the work of others. IF they want to do that, no problem, I have a set day and 1/2 day rate. If I run out of materials they pay me to get it OR I'll just go home and they still pay for that day.Give some of these tightwads room to negotiate and they will nickel and dime you to death.I would be sure to get them to sign a contract IN WRITING that says EXACTLY what you will do and what it will cost and what and when payments will be made. Be sure to note that those letters and horse heads ARE NOT INCLUDED in the price. I see that coming next. "We thought you had included that! Thats what we said we wanted done..." Remember that other guy left for a reason, you may be just begining to see why.
Reply:first rule of business..... DO NOT ARGUE with the customers. Place your bid, if she doesn;t like it then let her find someone else. Honestly, your bid was low. With no helper you can't handle, fit, grind, and tack up, level, then finish welding that in 16hrs. Plus what happens if someone sets the post and they aren;t straight? You have added time to fix someone's screw up yet again. You always have to add some extra if your work is dependent on others before you. Also your mileage was low. You honestly need to be over .50/mile in my opinion. The federally accepted rate is currently $.58/mile. You ALWAYS bill your materials from nuts and bolts to steel. If she don't like it then let her find another sucker, but don't be it. This was what I was trying to tell you earlier in your previous post. You saved their butt by finishing someone else's screw up, and you admittedly under priced the job. Now they think that you are supposed to work for little of nothing. Always cover your butt, and don't take jobs if you can't turn a profit. Helping someone is one thing, but you still have to make a living.Last edited by Hammack_Welding; 06-22-2009 at 11:58 PM.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Hortse people must be the same everywhere. I've built, repaired, and completely made new again stock trailers since the late 80's and I've only worked on about 4 horse only trailers. Had one horse guy that would buy a new truck every 50k miles and want the $6.00 light plug and wires switched to the new $45000.00 truck, took several years to convince him to even GET a brake controller, he'd ask how much, i'd tell him prices, and get "I can't afford that! ." Cattle people were totally opposite, they usually dropped their trailers off and said fix whatever you find.
Reply:look like fun i thank little low on price but that is jest me
Reply:JC, I had something similar with the deck I am building. Gave the guy a price for my Labor, material and Consumables. He said he could get the metal for less. So I told him to get it, and I would just charge him time and consum. He was " I do not want to spend the time ordering it( he had a print out of what it would cost with shipping. All he had to do was click check out" So he had me buy it.....He has been a PITA but hey, it's work while things are slow.
Reply:I learned from my pressure washing business to itemize, and have it in writing. When I used to just give them a price, they ALWAYS wanted to talk me down. So I started putting down why it costs what it costs. No more debate. So, that's why I did it for this job. Be she even said herself that she would rather pay a guy $60/hr, that DIDN'T charge for all that extra stuff. Ok, so that'll be $960, instead of $940. She did ask why I was charging $15 for bolts. I said because I have to drive to the hardware store to get them, I have to drive to the steel supplier, and all that adds up. My price might have been low, but watch... she will call tomorrow and try to offer an even lower price. I WILL NOT do it for less! Will I use $79 in consumables, probably not. But, when I burn up a grinder and need a new one, one quick look at the general ledger will show that I have the money for a new one, with out coming out of my personal pocket. My price might have been low, my mileage might have been low, but, I don't feel bad about the price I gave her, and she wants me to. Ain't gonna happen. 50 cents sounds better for mileage, and I will seriously consider that for the next job. Time starts from when I leave home, until I get back, sounds even better. Cause like you guys said, every hour spent driving around is another hour I could be charging.I discussed this with my wife and we agreed that doing this estimate in this way has been a good experience, even if I don't get the job. Because now I can see WHAT I have to charge and WHY.I really appreciate every ones help on this. This has been a good exercise. Thanks!
Reply:If she thinks she can get it done by someone else cheaper, let her call around!Around here most guys are charging $75.00 per hour minimum plus mileage!#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:$0.35/mi is a flippin' discount - around here the going price is $0.53/mi. $1000 for all that work isn't a bad price - doesn't look like they're hurting for money and you're not UNICEF, so...$1000 - they probably pay that for a 2hr vet visit for those horses.
Reply:Originally Posted by DSWI wouldn't do a whole breakdown for a customer, especially milage and drivetime...I'd break it down to labor, consumables, and materials and thats as far as I would go....If you go and tell some that you will be spending $6.34 for bolts, they will turn around and say they can get it from Joe's hardware for $5.76. ...Worse THEY will say they will supply the stuff. ...Give some of these tightwads room to negotiate and they will nickel and dime you to death.I would be sure to get them to sign a contract IN WRITING that says EXACTLY what you will do and what it will cost and what and when payments will be made. Be sure to note that those letters and horse heads ARE NOT INCLUDED in the price. I see that coming next. "We thought you had included that! Thats what we said we wanted done..." Remember that other guy left for a reason, you may be just begining to see why.
Reply:Good thread, lots of good info. But what is a PITA?FLASH ME.... I'm a welder
Reply:Originally Posted by Troy44BGood thread, lots of good info. But what is a PITA?
Reply:PITA: Pain In The A$$.
Reply:Sounds like most of MY customers, over the years! Always trying to talk you down with "Oh, I can get that cheaper at SuchAndSuch ..." So I've told them nicely that I'm in business to make a living and having asked for my bid, I gave them an honest assessment of what it would cost me. However, I agree with several of these guys ... I think you are bidding low on your labor! Here in Texas, most mechanics in the city bid up to $100 an hour and in rural areas, they usually go for $50. Welders should get at least as much. Your tools ain't cheaper than theirs!... GusBefore you criticize someoneyou should walk a mile in their shoes.That way, you're a mile awayand you have their shoes.Lincoln Power MIG 180CHobart AC/DC 230A stick welderHF compressorOriginally Posted by weldbeada hint.. it is not a pain in the apples...
Reply:Originally Posted by JC'sWeldingWell, the customer called just a few minutes ago, and I had to go ahead and roll with what I had. I think the price was good. I gave her the total, and she couldn't believe it. So, I gave her the break down. She laughed at me! She said, "wait... you mean I have to pay for you to get here, then pay for the materials that you will use?" She really laughed at the mileage. I explained that for 2 days round trip was 192 miles. At .35 per mile, I thought it was fair. She said "You're even making money on that too!". I explained that my truck is a tool, and that there was more involved than just gas. She was literally laughing out load at me like a was a f-ing moron.Get this... She said "Well, the others welders didn't break it down like that with mileage and all, they just said $60/hr." So I told her, "Oh, ok, if you want me to just charge a flat hourly price, ok, then it's 16 hours at $60". That comes to $960, $20 more than the original estimate.Then she couldn't believe that it would be another $460 to dig the holes and set the posts. She said that should be included.She said she will have to talk to her husband, because they priced that vinyl fence stuff at $480 and they can do it them selves. I said "What are you going to do when your 10 year old son keeps running into it with the zero turn mower, or, hits it a few too many times with the weed eater?" Besides, what does she think the will weld the horse head and 7" letters to?Man, I just don't get it. But, someone told me last week that these horse people are notoriously cheap!
Reply:Originally Posted by gusrod1948Reminds me of a blonde joke: "What does IDK mean?" answer ... "I don't know". Her reply "Gosh! No one does!"....Pain In The A**... Gus
Reply:Originally Posted by weldbeada hint.. it is not a pain in the apples...
Reply:Originally Posted by roadkillbobbI sounds like a pain in the a$$ customer you forgot in the break down the charge for aggravation from idiot customers, being that she priced around mabe other welders told her to (F) off as they saw a problem with getting paid, and if you did work for her already and was happy, mabe thats why the last welder just cut with a torch and didnt care as he was working for FREE.. some times Ill walk away from a customer and tell them why..If theres no other work then a few dollars is better than nothing but dont under sell a skill...
Reply:Just a couple observations.First, there have been some good suggestions made.Next, I'll cover some of my first reactions to reading the original posting.1. $40/hr for a welder with machine is way too low, especially on an "on site" job. Sends the sigh that you're inexperienced and willing to work for cheap. When a customer senses this, their first reaction is "how cheap will he go". Customers don't like paying for "on the job training", no matter how low the hourly rate is.2. You can't charge a customer for your inefficiencies due to lack of having the proper tools or experience. As an example, a clamp on notcher would make short work of fishmouthing the posts and rails. In fact, on the rails you'd be getting a two for one benefit. Plus, the proper equipment would yield a better finished product. In the absense of a proper notcher, a plasma cutter will yield a cleaner fishmouth than O/A and do it faster.3. Using 1/2" x 3' x 4" end plates doesn't make any sense to me. First the 3" "pipe" will have a diameter greater than 3". Are you going to let the rails "hang over". Why do you need to use 1/2" material anyway. The thickness of the pipe wall is only about 3/16". Personally I'd buy a stick of 1/4" x 4" strip and have my plates already cut and punched when I got to the site. If you're planning to anchor the plates to the mortar joints, this would require a little preplanning. May be easier to have a continuous strip where the rails meet the brick columns. Regardless, a 3" wide plate is not wide enough to accept a 3" pipe.I see this all the time in marine repair. Customer brings me a part to fix. I give him a price. He thinks it's too much and leaves. There are a couple "new guys" in the area who work for cheap. He gets them to do the repair. Two months later he's back with the part, broken again. This time the price doubles. He asks why. I say, half to do the repair (as I quoted before) and half to cut out the other idiots work. Next time he's back, he doesn't even ask how much, just "when can you get to it". Most of my referrals come from customers like this. Do good/fairly priced work and your customer will tell two (2) of his friends about how great you are. Do cheap/shoddy work and that same customer will tell ten (10) of his friends what a douchebag you are.I realize we're dealing with a chicken/egg situation here. How does one get experience to get to the "pro" level. Tough answer. I will say that it does sorta make the hair on the back of my neck stand up when I see a guy bidding a job that he doesn't understand fully and is marginally qualified to complete in a professional manner. Not saying that that's the case here, but having a welding machine does not make one a welder/fabricator.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Horse people are always a pain in the @$$. My description of a horse person is some one who will send their kids to school with holes in their tennis shoes but the horse gets new shoes every six weeks. The cost is about the same too.Earlier in my business, most of my customers were horse people, and now a days horses are mainly owned by women. It was so much of a problem I slowly eliminated all my horse customers and do not work for any horse people any more. Every hot check I have ever gotten was from them and I hated getting beat up on over prices.If you need the work do what you have to do but like already said, if the job is of any size at all, get a contract.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIJust a couple observations.First, there have been some good suggestions made.Next, I'll cover some of my first reactions to reading the original posting.1. $40/hr for a welder with machine is way too low, especially on an "on site" job. Sends the sigh that you're inexperienced and willing to work for cheap. When a customer senses this, their first reaction is "how cheap will he go". Customers don't like paying for "on the job training", no matter how low the hourly rate is.2. You can't charge a customer for your inefficiencies due to lack of having the proper tools or experience. As an example, a clamp on notcher would make short work of fishmouthing the posts and rails. In fact, on the rails you'd be getting a two for one benefit. Plus, the proper equipment would yield a better finished product. In the absense of a proper notcher, a plasma cutter will yield a cleaner fishmouth than O/A and do it faster.3. Using 1/2" x 3' x 4" end plates doesn't make any sense to me. First the 3" "pipe" will have a diameter greater than 3". Are you going to let the rails "hang over". Why do you need to use 1/2" material anyway. The thickness of the pipe wall is only about 3/16". Personally I'd buy a stick of 1/4" x 4" strip and have my plates already cut and punched when I got to the site. If you're planning to anchor the plates to the mortar joints, this would require a little preplanning. May be easier to have a continuous strip where the rails meet the brick columns. Regardless, a 3" wide plate is not wide enough to accept a 3" pipe.I see this all the time in marine repair. Customer brings me a part to fix. I give him a price. He thinks it's too much and leaves. There are a couple "new guys" in the area who work for cheap. He gets them to do the repair. Two months later he's back with the part, broken again. This time the price doubles. He asks why. I say, half to do the repair (as I quoted before) and half to cut out the other idiots work. Next time he's back, he doesn't even ask how much, just "when can you get to it". Most of my referrals come from customers like this. Do good/fairly priced work and your customer will tell two (2) of his friends about how great you are. Do cheap/shoddy work and that same customer will tell ten (10) of his friends what a douchebag you are.I realize we're dealing with a chicken/egg situation here. How does one get experience to get to the "pro" level. Tough answer. I will say that it does sorta make the hair on the back of my neck stand up when I see a guy bidding a job that he doesn't understand fully and is marginally qualified to complete in a professional manner. Not saying that that's the case here, but having a welding machine does not make one a welder/fabricator.
Reply:By the way... I guess I didn't get the job so it"s water under the bridge. But like I said, bidding a big job like this was a great eye opener for me, make me more confident, and was educational. So, I guess it wasn't a total loss.
Reply:I agree with the notcher, best 400 + - I ever spent for pipe work. I used to get 40.00 a ft for 2 line pipe rail and that was 7 - 8 yrs ago. Top of my memory, R B Wagner sells all kinds of pipe fittings. different degrees, 90s ect. If your ever stuck in the field and need a notch or 2, clamp up your piece of pipe and grind or cut off with a cut off wheel a sliver off 2 sides of the pipe. then touch up with a used grinding wheel. I used to use a 14" chop saw when I was in a pickle. Oh yea, if you use the fittings from wagner, have a lot of grinding wheels as each end has 2 weldments.Last edited by gclamp; 06-23-2009 at 10:17 PM.Reason: spellingLincoln Ranger 8 Lincoln 175 Drill pressLincoln 225 mig Plasma 8 ft brake 52" jump shear
Reply:I'm no contractor, but there's no way I'd breakdown my price like that. If they ask for a bid they're going to get X for X dollars, simple as that. Time and material on the other hand, I'd be willing to break down if they asked.
Reply:I forgot, The bid! I do something like this. Job cost XXXX Price includes the following. List of tasks to be performed. List of tasks by other contractors that directly affect your job. Mason to set plates per drawing. Drawing or sketch (can't spell tonite) by who ever. My Co. will provide labor and all necessary materials to perform said job, any changes do to customers, mason's or who ever makes a change or mistake, will be extra, (get it signed right then) Even if you don't have a cost, just have it signed that some thing changed. I never let a customer order materials. Maybe pay, but never order, Home cheapo sells gas pipe.It has a coating on it and is a t+c. where ever you cut, you have to grind to get rid of the coating. (This was a example) Not sure of your market, but it seemed way to cheap. Also, I never added Mileage, I usually just added estimated travel into the bid based on hrly rate with who ever wentLincoln Ranger 8 Lincoln 175 Drill pressLincoln 225 mig Plasma 8 ft brake 52" jump shear
Reply:Thanks for the input. Remember, this was basically just for labor. I was only supplying the flat stock. She already has 11 26 foot drill stem pieces.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIII2. You can't charge a customer for your inefficiencies due to lack of having the proper tools or experience. As an example, a clamp on notcher would make short work of fishmouthing the posts and rails. In fact, on the rails you'd be getting a two for one benefit. Plus, the proper equipment would yield a better finished product. In the absense of a proper notcher, a plasma cutter will yield a cleaner fishmouth than O/A and do it faster.
Reply:If you take your car to the shop for repair, let's say a clutch job, they will look it up in the big green book. It might say that the national average time is 3 hours. That is what they will charge you. The shop manager will give the job to the mechanic that he knows can do it in 1 1/2 hours. The shop just made more money. If I had a notcher that size, yes, I would be done faster, but should I charge the customer less because I can do it faster? Or, charge the same, and let my tools make me more money per hour?
Reply:Value of the job, the faster you do it , the more you make. VALUE I quit welding for practice yrs ago, Maybe that should be decades.Lincoln Ranger 8 Lincoln 175 Drill pressLincoln 225 mig Plasma 8 ft brake 52" jump shear
Reply:i use a proposal go look at the jobthen figure the price and mail it to themno break down just specifcations and estimate Attached Images
Reply:Sometimes if i can tell someone is going to give head aches on a job i'll tack 10% on there for a convince fee. I'm not a welder accept fixing broken things at work. I do landscape contracting and my average job last year was 35k so 10% will not kill them. Don't be afraid to walk away either it will save you time and money in the end i promiseMillermatic DVIMillermatic 251Older buzz box Cheap 120 welder
Reply:I agree with landman!Its hard to walk away when your not sure where your next meal is going to come from, but then again, if you let someone nickel and dime you, can you be assured that when it comes time for them to pay up, that they wont leave you starving anyway?I have adopted the anything estimated over $200.00 requires 50% down before I start attitude for new customers, this is with exceptions for those that I have had good dealings with previously!Farmers have always been good customers, the ones I deal with here, has known my family since long before I was born!I have only had a couple of dealings with other businesses here, and had a hard time getting my money from them!I can honestly say though, there has only been one horse person I have done work for, and that was my uncle, and there was no problems on that one!#1. If you don't like what I wrote, or if it offends you, then don't read it!#2. I am living life the way I see fit, if you don't like the way I'M living, tough sh**!
Reply:Originally Posted by Ken DennisI have adopted the anything estimated over $200.00 requires 50% down before I start attitude for new customers, this is with exceptions for those that I have had good dealings with previously!
Reply:Originally Posted by landmanSometimes if i can tell someone is going to give head aches on a job i'll tack 10% on there for a convince fee. I'm not a welder accept fixing broken things at work. I do landscape contracting and my average job last year was 35k so 10% will not kill them. Don't be afraid to walk away either it will save you time and money in the end i promise |
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发表于 2021-9-1 00:08:21