Thorium Radiation Hazards ?

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Am new to TIG welding.  I have been mainly using pure Tungsten and aluminum.  Was going to buy some Lanthanated electrodes, but they apparently are not common here.  I am a hobbyist and not a professional.  My questions are:How dangerous is the use and sharpening of Thorium containg electrodes? As I have seen my brother go thru cancer treatment in the last two years, I think even a small hazard is not worth it.  I will be mainly welding aluminum and wanted to test out some 1/4" mild steel and wondered what tungstens would be best to try.  Would the Lanthanated or Ceritated be good for aluminum as well as mild steel or just stick with pure tungsten for aluminum and one of the others for steel?I am mainly practicing with with 1/8" and 3/32" pure tungstens and a #7 cup.What other sizes would be good to purchase? Any questions, advice or criticism is welcome. Thanks
Reply:Hey TxDoc,I feel you may get varying opinions regarding the Thorium tungsten electrodes and the hazards associated with them. It is a general consensus that as long as you simply grind in a well ventilated environ, you would not be affected. Some of the guys would suggest an easy method of just putting a nozzle from a shopvac close to your grinder will eliminate any risks. There are many posts you can research to form your own opinion. Myself, I have used them and had a small ventilator exhaust fan to remove the dust. In the last year or so, I have completely gone to Lanthanated in blue & gold for all my TIG welding. I use an inverter TIG and with substantial testing, the Lan. is the best I have found for all applications in both steel and aluminum. I maintain 4 diameters each of the blue & gold for the applications I do. Attached is the E-bay dealer I get my tungstens from. Hope this helps you a bit......   Dennyhttp://stores.ebay.com/Aglevtech-com...QQftidZ2QQtZkmComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:all  i use is the red, and have for 17 yrs.works fine for me(mostly al,ss,nibral) not like i'm breathing the dust all day.when i grind on themit's been brought up before on which is better/and or safer. kinda what works for you and your jobs
Reply:Originally Posted by prop-doctornot like i'm breathing the dust all day.when i grind on them
Reply:Generally if normal precautions are taken (ie don't breath it ,keep dust from grinding to a minimum etc) then you have nothing to worry about. It will be equivalent to normal background radiation.I use 2% red and have no worries about health issues. I use a shop vac with water to collect the dust but a hepa filter will work if you have the cash for that. You could also keep the grinder in an enclosed area and wipe the dust up with a damp rag. Just don't introduce the dust into the air by sweeping it up.Hope that helps.My Photos on Flickr
Reply:Read this..http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=13220...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:When the first scare tactic ads came out in the trade magazines about the health risks of thorium I wondered what was going on too.So i called two radiology labs at two of the largest hospitals in the SF bay area. I gave the information (listed on the box of tungstens),about the radioactivity level.I asked them what the levels were and what the risk to exposure was.Both labs told me there was almost no risk. One lab told me the level of radiation was equal to dirt.You do not want to ingest it. ZAPSTER posted some very specific good info that basically said if you used it for your whole working career  you could lose about 5 hours off of your life.The lanthaniated tungstens did not work as well. The tip of the tungsten degraded very rapidly.Now I have found out that thorium is very plentiful all over the earth, and it could even be a solution to our energy problems.Just use common sense when grinding and containment. Thorium is heavier than lead and does not tend to float around in the air.Last edited by Donald Branscom; 01-05-2008 at 03:03 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by TxDocAm new to TIG welding.  I have been mainly using pure Tungsten and aluminum.  Was going to buy some Lanthanated electrodes, but they apparently are not common here.  I am a hobbyist and not a professional.  My questions are:How dangerous is the use and sharpening of Thorium containg electrodes? As I have seen my brother go thru cancer treatment in the last two years, I think even a small hazard is not worth it.  I will be mainly welding aluminum and wanted to test out some 1/4" mild steel and wondered what tungstens would be best to try.  Would the Lanthanated or Ceritated be good for aluminum as well as mild steel or just stick with pure tungsten for aluminum and one of the others for steel?I am mainly practicing with with 1/8" and 3/32" pure tungstens and a #7 cup.What other sizes would be good to purchase? Any questions, advice or criticism is welcome. Thanks
Reply:Originally Posted by TxDocAm new to TIG welding.  I have been mainly using pure Tungsten and aluminum.  Was going to buy some Lanthanated electrodes, but ...........(shortened to save space)
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterRead this..http://www.weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=13220...zap!
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrIf you notice though it does say in that post all necessary precautions taken.To me that means a water cooled torch. I have only used a water cooled torch for years. And even with a water cooled torch every now and then, while doing steel all day. I will get a slight radio active gas build up in the room. However with an air cooled torch, that same effect happens in just minutes. I would turn down a job using an air cooled torch. Even with ventilation.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomA little tip for you.Try the gas lens with a #9 cup 3/32 tungsten.The gas lens difuses the gas better and saves gas too.Do not use the gas lens with aluminum because the screen can get little aluminum balls stuck in the screen.
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick Jr... And even with a water cooled torch every now and then, while doing steel all day. I will get a slight radio active gas build up in the room. However with an air cooled torch, that same effect happens in just minutes.
Reply:Since it is my info that has been linked to at least twice here I should at least answer a couple of these questions.1. What radioactive gas is being produced?    A). None. It's not a gas it is smoke from the burning of the tungten during the welding process. Yes this smoke is radioactive. True a water cooled torch will burn less of the tungsten therefore creating less smoke.    B) There will be no more radiation in total from spent tungsten than there was origionallywhen it was intact. Burning doesn't magically create more radiation. But it is now in the air and easier to get into the airway. However the hang time even for the thorium in the smoke is very limited due to it being a heavy element and wouldn't last in the air more than a minute or two. The smoke will still be there but the radioactive content (thorium) will be on the floor. Unless you are burning 50-60 rods per hour in a 300 square foot area you will not detect the radiation with any of the shelf equipment. If you burn a long wooden fire match, does the smoke from that cover the room? Yes it does but in low enough concentration you don't notice.2. What protective measures do I use and reccomend?    A). A good quality mask. Even if not using Thoriated Tungsten wear a good mask. The smoke from the normal welding process will kill you faster than thorium.   B). Ventilation. Wether it be a fume hood, fan, open door or what ever. Have some form of ventilation or smoke and gasses can build up. Remember most of the welding gasses displace air.   C). A water cooled torch if possible but not necessary. (I don't have one but plan on getting one.)Most of the precautions taken are ones you should be taking anyway.And for those that don't know why I think I should (or someone else of a similar background) answer these question. I'm a qualified Radiation Safety Officer in Canada and the US. I teach Nuclear/Chemical/Biological Defence in the Canadian Military. Feel free to ask any questions and I'll answer them the best I can.Last edited by Wildcat; 01-05-2008 at 06:04 PM.My Photos on Flickr
Reply:As a side note. Don't think I'm pushing thoriated tungsten. I use it but I personally couldn't care less what others use as long as they are happy with their choice based on information and not fearmongering.My Photos on Flickr
Reply:If you can keep the end of the tungsten out of your weld puddle, your shapening will be minimal. File this under technique.  Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:Originally Posted by Donald BranscomVery good point. I completely agree.Without water cooling your tungstens will not last as long and that costs money.TIG torches really need water cooling.
Reply:Originally Posted by WildcatSince it is my info that has been linked to at least twice here I should at least answer a couple of these questions.1. What radioactive gas is being produced?    A). None. It's not a gas it is smoke from the burning of the tungten during the welding process. Yes this smoke is radioactive. True a water cooled torch will burn less of the tungsten therefore creating less smoke.    B) There will be no more radiation in total from spent tungsten than there was origionallywhen it was intact. Burning doesn't magically create more radiation. But it is now in the air and easier to get into the airway. However the hang time even for the thorium in the smoke is very limited due to it being a heavy element and wouldn't last in the air more than a minute or two. The smoke will still be there but the radioactive content (thorium) will be on the floor. Unless you are burning 50-60 rods per hour in a 300 square foot area you will not detect the radiation with any of the shelf equipment. If you burn a long wooden fire match, does the smoke from that cover the room? Yes it does but in low enough concentration you don't notice.2. What protective measures do I use and reccomend?    A). A good quality mask. Even if not using Thoriated Tungsten wear a good mask. The smoke from the normal welding process will kill you faster than thorium.   B). Ventilation. Wether it be a fume hood, fan, open door or what ever. Have some form of ventilation or smoke and gasses can build up. Remember most of the welding gasses displace air.   C). A water cooled torch if possible but not necessary. (I don't have one but plan on getting one.)Most of the precautions taken are ones you should be taking anyway.And for those that don't know why I think I should (or someone else of a similar background) answer these question. I'm a qualified Radiation Safety Officer in Canada and the US. I teach Nuclear/Chemical/Biological Defence in the Canadian Military. Feel free to ask any questions and I'll answer them the best I can.
Reply:Originally Posted by hotrodderhave you any data concerning the production of radioactive smoke from TIG welding?
Reply:I went and found a previous post of mine..Check it out..Last class lorenzo and bdouris were the only ones there..Afterawhile Microzone finally made it..bdouris is a Idunno..scientist...But he brought with him a geiger counter..You do know what that is... He also had a Coleman lantern filament mesh thingie that burns when lit..I'm no camper..Geiger counter went nuts with the lantern mesh.. Pointed it right at my 2%..Nothing..He held it next to the grinder when I ground it to sharpness in the sparks..Nothing..p/m him if you wish..I saw it for myself...So give it a rest now..This is no bullcrap...That was from last year sometime.....zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:never mindLast edited by G3farms; 01-06-2008 at 05:25 PM.miller... 225g, s32p, 250x, 304, 12vs, MSW41     victor o/a thermal dynamics cutmaster 50 lenco panel spotter        hobart hf-boxG3 Farms.....raising cattle, hay, kids and hell, ...oh yeah I'm a fire sprinkler contractor by trade.
Reply:edit by G3never mindmiller... 225g, s32p, 250x, 304, 12vs, MSW41     victor o/a thermal dynamics cutmaster 50 lenco panel spotter        hobart hf-boxG3 Farms.....raising cattle, hay, kids and hell, ...oh yeah I'm a fire sprinkler contractor by trade.
Reply:yep the 0.5g/hr would be total fume generated, content would be depend on the alloy(s) welded i guess. i wouldn't expect any measurable fume from the tungsten though. if tungsten (particually thoriated) fume was generated in measurable quantities the HSE/H&S pen pushers would be banging on about it. as it is they're only concerned with grinding dustwith the tig process all of the documentation i've seen is usually more concerned with ozone/NO2 generation than particulate fumezap, if it was really, very, radioactive it woudn't be freely available would it yes this subject is old but i can't see it being rested until people learn to use the search function  people get all paniky because of the thoria warning but if they bothered to read about it radiation isn't the concern- as grinding dust it's easily inhaled/ingested and because it's radioactive it is a known CARCINOGEN.
Reply:http://aws.org/technical/facts/(see number 27)It seems to me the bigger hazard is breathing dust and such, and not so much the thorium in tungsten.... Here's what the American Lung Assoc. says about breathing hazards at work:http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=23032and about occupational asthma:http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=23034-----------------------Carmen Electrodewww.CarmenElectrode.comand the boss blogs at  www.JoeWelder.comall powered by  www.Arc-Zone.com
Reply:You are correct the biggest and in my opinion only hazzard is from getting the dust inside the body but the precautions are easy and mostly common dog.Trust me if I thought that the thorium was in any way a hazzard for me to use I wouldn't. But I do because the precations to mitigate the hazzard are easy and for the most part what I do anyhow.My Photos on FlickrOriginally Posted by TensaitekiOut of curiosity, what method/device do you used to detect and measure the pretense and quantity of this radioactive gas that you speak of?Also, what radioactive gas do you theorize is present? A gaseous form of thorium or possibly argon that has been irradiated?I'll admit that I don't agree with you that there is any radioactive gas present, but I would still be interested to know what line of thinking leads you to believe there is. Its possible that what you think is radioactive gas is something else. But that's just a theory, I'd still like to hear your view.
Reply:Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:Billy,, just what does the fantasy of perpetual motion have to do with TIG welding?I sure hope the packs of tungstens on the shelf at the LWS are hermetically sealed and vacuum packed.  Otherwise they would be exposed to oxygen and I might start to glow in the dark if I stood near them too long.Document this mysterious "they" you refer to,, if you can.  There ya go, another opportunity to prove your stuff, go for it!
Reply:Oh boy..Pull your pants WAY up now..The crap is getting deep... ...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:IMO we should all boycott thoriated tungstens. Hopefully they will stop manufacuring them before some fruitcake uses them to make a nuke and take over the universe.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:Folks,This was a good thread until it got into some strange tangents. Let's get it back on track, please, and do what we can to keep this forum a place for meaningful and helpful information.Bob RosenbaumFormer PublisherPenton's WELDING Magazine
Reply:Sorry Bob.I use thoriated tungstens. The health risk is non-existant, unless your job is to stand there grinding tungstens all day long 5 days a week.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:Originally Posted by Alan NBilly,, just what does the fantasy of perpetual motion have to do with TIG welding?I sure hope the packs of tungstens on the shelf at the LWS are hermetically sealed and vacuum packed.  Otherwise they would be exposed to oxygen and I might start to glow in the dark if I stood near them too long.Document this mysterious "they" you refer to,, if you can.  There ya go, another opportunity to prove your stuff, go for it!
Reply:Originally Posted by Wildcat1. What radioactive gas is being produced?A). None. It's not a gas it is smoke from the burning of the tungten during the welding process. Yes this smoke is radioactive. True a water cooled torch will burn less of the tungsten therefore creating less smoke.B) There will be no more radiation in total from spent tungsten than there was origionallywhen it was intact. Burning doesn't magically create more radiation.
Reply:There are two scenarios I can see for the crazy drivel you post. Either you  you are totally nuts or trolling for a reaction."There is not enough room on the grassy knoll for all the people you think are involved"
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrI can feel it in my silver fillings. I once created a lot of gas. And I did feel it in my fillings. I could only take if for a minute or so. It was like having a battery in your mouth.
Reply:Wildcat,There's no point in trying to show Billy Mac any facts.  He's so wrapped up in all he knows and gov't initiated coverups that he just can't hold any more information.  He has often been challenged to PROVE or DOCUMENT his drivel and he ignores that also.  The man is a totally bogus troll who (I think) enjoys passing out false, and in some cases dangerous, information.  I cannot understand why the Administrators haven't pulled his plug, other than his crap is good for post counts, which is one criteria used in determining advertising ratres for the forum.
Reply:Originally Posted by WildcatThis is not an effect of radiation. An acute effect of radiation would be beta/gamma burns on the skin. In order to get these radiation levels you would have to obtain a source that would land you in jail longer than Chucky Manson.At work we have over 100 radiac detectors and they require periodic calibration. Some get done every 2 years and the ones for radiation safey get done monthly by us and every year by the manufaturer so yes if they're old then they are highly inacurate.On this note. Your meter has a Geiger-Müller tube style detector which only detects beta and gama radiation without externat apparatus which thorium is primarily an alpha emmiter. It emits such low beta and gamma at the concentration in tungsten that I will bet money that you CAN"T detect it.1. It would be smoke not gas.2. You cannot creat massive amounts of radiation without first having massive amounts of radiation therefore please reffer to my Charles Manson statement.3. Tungsten is not radioactive. Thorium is and is naturally occuring and has been exposed to oxygen for thousands of years without gassing us out.
Reply:There is something everyone should know. And that is that there is no difference between radiation created by radio active substances or man made radiation, through magnetic pulses, high voltage or high temperatures. It is well known that in ARC furnaces you have to watch what goes into them. The same is true in high temperature incineration for hazardous waste. In some cases the whole drum is incinerated at elevated temperatures. There are usually special scrubbers present to catch a release of radio active gas. Or should be. Radio active substances do not create any special element, or sub-atomic particle. They just alter the flow of ambient radiation. At the surface of a radio active substance it is possible to form new elements by the bombardment of ambient radiation at the surface. The angles of bombardment created by the large radio active elements is what radio activity is and how it is measured. Another factor is the huge diameters and the small diameters that common atoms can be expanded or compressed to at the surface of a radio active element. That is why they often add radio active elements to chemicals to start the fusion or chemical process off. I would hope it is well known by someone running the plants that use these principles. Maybe they are all in Canada, China or Japan now?       Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrThere is something everyone should know. And that is that there is no difference between radiation created by radio active substances or man made radiation, through magnetic pulses, high voltage or high temperatures. It is well known that in ARC furnaces you have to watch what goes into them. The same is true in high temperature incineration for hazardous waste. In some cases the whole drum is incinerated at elevated temperatures. There are usually special scrubbers present to catch a release of radio active gas. Or should be. Radio active substances do not create any special element, or sub-atomic particle. They just alter the flow of ambient radiation. At the surface of a radio active substance it is possible to form new elements by the bombardment of ambient radiation at the surface. The angles of bombardment created by the large radio active elements is what radio activity is and how it is measured. Another factor is the huge diameters and the small diameters that common atoms can be expanded or compressed to at the surface of a radio active element. That is why they often add radio active elements to chemicals to start the fusion or chemical process off. I would hope it is well known by someone running the plants that use these principles. Maybe they are all in Canada, China or Japan now?       Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Originally Posted by gnm109Bill, I can't be critical of you or your writing style since I have my faults as well. Having said that it is my intention to nominate you as the "Resident Mystic" on this website. I think that such a title will encourage viewers to react more kindly toward you in the future. I am quite sincere in this suggestion and I trust that you will not take it personally. Respectfully. gnm109
Reply:Resident Mystic will do. Miller Millermatic 252Miller Syncrowave 200Liincoln AC-DC 225Victor O-A Set
Reply:Originally Posted by gnm109Resident Mystic will do.
Reply:I, for one, hope the admins' don't do anything to hinder this "mystic" guy. I have not laughed so hard in years. And, hey Bill? "If!" there were such a thing as perpetual motion, we would never know it cause the oil companies would buy it and squash it immediately, just like the 100mpg carburetor.SA200,Ranger8,Trailblazer251NT,MM250,Dayton225AC,T  D-XL75,SpoolMate3545SGA100C,HF-15-1  RFCS-14 When I stick it, it stays stuck!
Reply:Thanks for the Demo William, that was very interesting.
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick Jrhttp://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/geigerthorium.wmvI redid the video of the tungsten being checked with a Geiger counter. I just realized where the volume was on that first video. Now you can hear it much better. You can see that there is some radiation there. In fact if I take that thing around the house I cannot even get a click out of it. Only the microwave on start can cause a click or two.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:I see you have a CD V 700 with a beta gamma probe.I'll see if I can get ours out of the display case at work and reproduce your findings, then I'll run one of our ASM's and get a true reading.By the way radiation decreases over time, not increases. That's why meters can read radiation. It's called disintigration. The apha and beta particles and Gamma photon are being released so that the isotope can become stable. With most isotopes the half lives are in the hundreds to thousands of years which is why it sticks around for so dam long.Can you get a background radiation level prior to reading the tungsten please. Preferably in a different room.My Photos on Flickr
Reply:Originally Posted by WildcatI see you have a CD V 700 with a beta gamma probe.I'll see if I can get ours out of the display case at work and reproduce your findings, then I'll run one of our ASM's and get a true reading.By the way radiation decreases over time, not increases. That's why meters can read radiation. It's called disintigration. The apha and beta particles and Gamma photon are being released so that the isotope can become stable. With most isotopes the half lives are in the hundreds to thousands of years which is why it sticks around for so dam long.Can you get a background radiation level prior to reading the tungsten please. Preferably in a different room.
Reply:Originally Posted by gnm109I understand that we mortals are constantly being bombarded by Gamma, X and other rays from outer space in any case. A little more won't hurt. When I was a little kid I was told that "You've got to eat a barrel of dirt before you die" anyway. Not to worry.
Reply:Originally Posted by WildcatI see you have a CD V 700 with a beta gamma probe.I'll see if I can get ours out of the display case at work and reproduce your findings, then I'll run one of our ASM's and get a true reading.By the way radiation decreases over time, not increases. That's why meters can read radiation. It's called disintigration. The apha and beta particles and Gamma photon are being released so that the isotope can become stable. With most isotopes the half lives are in the hundreds to thousands of years which is why it sticks around for so dam long.Can you get a background radiation level prior to reading the tungsten please. Preferably in a different room.