Miller or Hobart?

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What do you think is a better machine Miller180 or Hobart187?
Reply:No question, MillerYou asked. Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:Originally Posted by jamlitNo question, MillerYou asked.
Reply:Originally Posted by 84zmikeNot so....metal man I have told you before but you still wont listen...the HH187 is tops in the 180 amp class.....only real advantage the Miller has is the spool gun option with out needing a controller
Reply:Originally Posted by 84zmikeNot so....metal man I have told you before but you still wont listen...the HH187 is tops in the 180 amp class.....only real advantage the Miller has is the spool gun option with out needing a controller
Reply:Originally Posted by William McCormick JrIf you get the Miller 30 amp spool gun with it's own controller, you can stick it on anything with MIG voltages. It has it' own contacts to turn the welding power on and off. It works on Bobcats, and MIG power supplies. You cannot do the more advanced things with it, unless your power supply does that at the power supply. But I have never wanted anything more complicated.I like the Hobart power supplies. Sincerely,William McCormick
Reply:Mostly they are the same idea.  The Miller is a higher quality unit, less plastic parts, more under the hood.The two models you are looking at are very close.  Since the Miller offers more for about the same price I would get it.my $0.02Me!
Reply:The MM180 has a few more bells and whistles yes.....will it really make that much difference to a hobbyist welder...nope....you will be happy with either one....both are capable units....you can fine tune the Miller more so than the Hobart (read between the lines...more to dick with for a newbie ='s PITA and frustration) If you want to add a spool gun the Miller will be less $ as with the money you save buying the Hobart will go into a controller and the spool gun is more $ as well.....you will not be let down by one or the other...yes the Hobart uses plastic parts....call any servicing dealer and ask them how many failures they have seen due to them vs the metal in the Miller's....it must be working as Hobart is still using it and you read of very little if any failures due to the plastic parts used in the Hobart's.....if nothing else try them both out side by side.....if your LWS doesn't have a HH187 to try out Northern Tool has demo days from time to time....sign up for there email updates and you will know when the next one is before the store does.....then try it out and buy it for less $.....also the choke design on the HH187 is the same as the one used in my HH210....the Hobart's will digest just about any wire you put into it with no problems....the Miller will not like some of the different wires...again this is info from pros that have tested both units side by side....
Reply:As for quality Miller owns Hobart. They are made in a diferent location but to the same standards. Hobart is a little lighter duty in most cases but still would be considered heavy duty home use. If it were me I would buy Miller just because it will be easier to resell and more locations for service. Steel Thunder Welding LLC. St. Thomas VI USAMM350PBOBCAT 3MAXSTAR 150 STH375 EXTREME PLASMA6.5 HP COMPRESORDEWALT 18, 24, AND 36 VOLTO/A TORCH SETAND SO MUCH MORE I DONT REMEMBERALL IN MY 2005 2500HD EXTENDED CAB L/B
Reply:Sorry but Miller doesn't own Hobart.  They are both owned by International Tool Works.DennisThermal Arc 185-TSWMillermatic Challenger 172VictorO/AAtlas Craftsman 12 by 24 LatheEsab PCM-875Wholesalem Tool Mill-Drill
Reply:The HH 187 produces a better level of inductance, resulting in better overall performance across the output power range that both units cover. Where I saw the most noticable difference would be at the top end. With a solid wire and C-25 shielding gas, both units output around 21 -22 load volts @ around 180 -185 amps at the top end. At this power level, the 187 produced a smoother arc with noticablly less spatter, and wet the weld puddle out a little better.I'm not stating the 180 is a bad unit, because I truly feel it is a good unit. I just feel the 187 is a little better. Honestly this is one of those cases were you can't make a poor choice, because both of them are good.As far as the Miller being better, strictly based on the fact that it is a Miller makes me laugh.  Along with the 187 I also own a Millermatic 210, and even though I've praised the 210 for several years, I have to admit across the output power range that the 187 is capable of covering it is a touch better then the 210.Last edited by Dan; 02-04-2008 at 08:55 AM.
Reply:If it were me I would buy Miller just because it will be easier to resell and more locations for service.
Reply:Originally Posted by Tailshaft56Sorry but Miller doesn't own Hobart.  They are both owned by International Tool Works.
Reply:hobarts are junk miller is way better but the best is lincoln
Reply:ITW bought Hobart to produce a slightly cheaper version of the Miller to sell in Discount cataloges, discount stores, & farm stores to compete with Lincoln with out cheapining the brand name of Miller like Lincoln has. They are made at differn't locations and alot of the parts are the same but some are a little less heavy duty. They are both serviced at any miller service station. They are both good machines but I would buy the Miller.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]www.migfix.com
Reply:I think some people are missing the question. what is the better machine ? Miller or Hobart.The answer is Miller as they are a better made welder.This doesn't mean that Hobart is a piece of crap. As stated somewhere above, Hobart makes a decent welder and will do for most hobbiest and more. I have read several good thing about the HH187 and I almost bought one before deciding on the Miller DVI2.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:I think the tie breaker for me would be with in a 50 mile radius how many places can you get consumables over the counter? gun liners, contact tips, nozzles and rollers etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by wielroI think the tie breaker for me would be with in a 50 mile radius how many places can you get consumables over the counter? gun liners, contact tips, nozzles and rollers etc.
Reply:I beleive it is the man not the machine that makes you solid. i have welded with a lot of diff. machines ie. multiquip hobart lincoln miller you get it. and no matter what machine with enough practice always produced a good product. but my personel opinion would be miller i find the machines more reliable parts are easy to find and have agreat website. good luck on your hunt .
Reply:If we were discussing a MM 212 VS a Hobart IM 210, or a MM 252 VS Hobart IM 250, I'd most definitely agree with the fact that the Miller is the better built unit by a significant margin.  However, were discussing the HH 187 VS the MM 180. How many of you have actually seen or ran both units?If I can ever get my work to sell the old MM 250, so we can update it to something better,  I definitely know the web site to advertise it on now.
Reply:Mike, Dan, as you can see from the replies, most are not interested in real life data as regards performance here. Sad, too. It doesn't matter that the service people are the same orthe units even share quite a few parts. No one really wants to hear that a Hobart isn't junk. Saying a Hobart is junk is plain ignorant. They are basically a Miller machine with a few "less durable" parts. Are you planning on welding with said machine or will you be playing basketball with it? If you plan on wailing on it, get a Miller. If you will be welding in a non-industrial setting, go Hobart or Miller...either would be a good choice. If money is an object, go Hobart.I have run Miller and Hobart side by side while field testing the HH210 unit. The HH kicks the MM210's butt in the 1/4" and lower ranges and in 1/4" and less aluminum. Way better arc, smoother and not picky at all when it comes to wire selection. The Miller wins on 3/8" and up due to a higher duty cycle and higher voltages at the upper end. I have been running the Hobart over the MM for the most part and have had no issues with quality, performance or durability...and that is in a shop and field setting. My whole shop is blue except for that one Hobart, fwiw.Now I realize Metal man wasn't asking about the 210's. But the HH187 shares the same choke as the HH210. The MM180 does not have this same choke design...and that is where it will fall short of the HH187. It will do just as well with the right wire...maybe a touch more difficult to dial in.
Reply:Whew!!!!!  Thanks for all the great replies.I think what i got out of this is that both machines are darn good and the HH187 maybe easier to use for the newbie just starting out.
Reply:MM I'm glad you got it...yep Don me you and Dan must be a couple of dummies cause we think that Hobart makes quality machines that in some cases are better than the equivalent Miller machine.....and I'll second that Miller doesn't own Hobart...Illinois Tool Works (ITW) owns them both as well as Bernard and quite a few others.... Originally Posted by jamlit...... I have read several good thing about the HH187 and I almost bought one before deciding on the Miller DVI2.....
Reply:Originally Posted by Metal manWhew!!!!!  Thanks for all the great replies.I think what i got out of this is that both machines are darn good and the HH187 maybe easier to use for the newbie just starting out.
Reply:Opinions are like certain parts of your anatomy, everyone has one but it is best kept to yourself, so I won't offer my opinion. I will state one fact. Walk into any shop in my part of the world and the wire welders will be blue. Hobart? You won't find one.Geez...is this really that hard to figure out? Hobart is NOT an industrially rated unit. They just are not. They used to be. The Mega MIG, Beta Mig, RC series and Mega Flex were kings of the heap. They kicked Miller and Lincoln all over the block...until Hobart Brothers was bought out and those lines went away. Now, they are a hobby/homeowner version on the Miller line. They do however have a currently better choke and arc than the current small line and will hang toe to toe with the current Miller line and both beat Lincoln's current offerings. Hobart has the edge in arc quality, Miller has the edge in less plastic pieces, read that as durability for when it gets wailed on. Their specs are so close it isn't funny. Other than that, they are supported by the same people. At one time according to a Hobart rep, they were actually building some units in the same building on opposite sides of the same aisle...Miller and Hobart in the same building. He should know since that was where he worked at that time. I don't know if that is the case anymore, but it was true as of four years ago. The very fact that the original poster is asking about a small mig unit screams out he is NOT looking for an industrial unit. Shops do not put small machines in a fab shop or production enviroment. I'm sorry if you don't like that fact, but a 30% duty cycle machine is not a good choice for a production enviroment. Hobart does have a MIG unit that is suited for a production enviroment, but it is not a small one as was originally asked about. Everyone keeps offering opinions that are off track or based on personal opinion and ignoring the statements that are based on fact. My fact is this...I have run Hobart and Miller head to head in field testing for ITW and Hobart won in more categories than Miller did..plain and simple. The new design is just better than the old one and the Miller offering. Regardless of what anyone else thinks and what other shops do, that was the overwhelming result of all the field tests done with those units.
Reply:Originally Posted by 84zmikeSo you bought a 160 lbs. $1200 180 amp MIG welder.... over the HH187 (68 lbs. and $550-$600) and probably mostly based on the blue paint job.... that tells me all I need to know....
Reply:I do 50% sheet metal were a 110 machine in better than a 220 unit.
Reply:Originally Posted by DanHow many 230 V units have you tried on sheet metal?Set a HH 187, MM 180, or PM 180C up with an .023 solid wire and C-25 shielding gas and all three perform very well on 22 ga sheet metal. The three units i 've listed have a low end around 25 -30 amps, and out put a very good low end voltage level for this amperage. Plus they all three produce a good inductance level for thin ga applications, resulting in a smooth consistent low end arc. Have you tried running your DVI on sheet metal, running it off a 230V circuit?
Reply:J, the added inductance is what will calm down the arc starts...that and the correct wire. Not all wire will start the same. Each machine will act differently as regards what wire it wants. A higher inductance level is where you want to be with a sheet machine. The small Hobarts do have a higher level...fwiw.As to what is better, Miller or Hobart...there is no cold hard answer. I believe that is what you are feeling you are getting flack for. It all depends on what you are doing. The two units in question are almost identical in specs. The only differences will be color, and the metal vs plastic parts. I see no reason to overlook the Hobart based on plastic parts. Like I said before, you are welding with the machine, not playing basketball. As long as you don't drop the machine several times a day, there should be no issues with plastic over metal as one sits on the table or cart as well as the other. 20 years down the line, that may be an issue...but if the thing lasts 20 years, it has more than paid for itself and has proven to be durable. You got the unit you wanted and there isn't a thing wrong with that. As to which is better, that is a matter of personal preference in your case. My case was a back to back trial with overall performance the deciding factor..but then I was in a unique position.What is more important to me will be how it welds as opposed to anything else. If it works just as good or better, then, even though it is cheaper and a non-industrial unit, Hobart will get my money in that case. When we got the HH210 units, most of us were very surprised as to how well they welded. Same with the 187's. There isn't anything wrong with that either...matter of fact, it is a good thing. That will help Miller improve its line further down the line. It also lets the hobby types get a higher than expected quality machine.
Reply:Thanks for the input DonAgain you have shown us a professional and honest look at things. I didn't buy Blue just becuase of the color and I wish we had Hobarts here atleast to try them out. I will try the pipe idea you told me about once and see how the DVI2 does with 220 input. Like I said,just because I prefer miller doesn't mean that its the one everyone should get.Again thanks.Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:I have a strong dose of the flu right now, so I apologize if my posts seem harsh or combative in nature. This definitely wasn't my intention. My opinion on all these welders is basically identical to Don's. When Hobart's offering in this 180 amp class was the HH 180 I bad mouthed it pretty good, until they finally handed over the original prototype HH 187 for me to try.  Which I have been a big fan of from day one. So, my point is,  as long as the unit is built durable enough to hold up well under normal useage, and there output specs are similar,  between a Miller, Hobart, Lincoln, or ESAB, I am going to go with the unit I feel performs the best in the areas of arc quality and weld puddle wet out.Last edited by Dan; 02-05-2008 at 05:40 PM.
Reply:J, the added inductance is what will calm down the arc starts...that and the correct wire. Not all wire will start the same. Each machine will act differently as regards what wire it wants. A higher inductance level is where you want to be with a sheet machine. The small Hobarts do have a higher level...fwiw.
Reply:Originally Posted by weldgaultIf you say hobart, I go for Miller, Lincoln, ESAB, or anything else.  John
Reply:Originally Posted by jamlitFirst of all, for you to reply in this manner tells me you are to quick in your thinking. I bought the miller for the dual voltage ability. I do 50% sheet metal were a 110 machine in better than a 220 unit. the other 50% is heavyer stuff, 1/8 to 3/8. I didn't want to have two welders in the shop so I went with the DVI2 which is two in one. Also I live in eastern Canada were we don't have any hobart dealers. By the time I ordered a Hobart and shipped it, paid the duty, brokerage fees and taxes, It would have cost me more than it was worth. If I wanted a 220 unit only I could have purchased the MM180 for 700.00 but that was not the case. I answered MM question. Miller is the better welder. I didn't say Hobart was bad idea. So in closing, before you assume to much do you home work.
Reply:J....if you are happy with the DVI then so be it....just so you know the HH210 does very well on thin stuff also...... I guess before we get all up in arms we should ask MM what it is he is wanting to do......my guess is that his friend that is looking for a welder has him questioning the fact he bought a MM180  MM I don't remember where you are located but if you ever make it out my way feel free to let me know and I'll make sure the HH210 is loaded up with wire ,both steel and al for you to try out..... it will not let you down... Attached Images
Reply:Now Mike.....what you gonna do when you run out of blades because you've welded them all together???
Reply:Get a P.O. from work and get another pack of 100....I got tired of sharpening my knife so I got layzie and picked up one of the ones that uses razor blades....
Reply:Dan and MikeI apologize as well and feel we all have great points. I wish I new more on the technical side of things and lived in an area where I could try out other machines, but thats not the case. If I ever get out your way mike, I will be sure to drop in and give it a try and say Hi. I know what works for me with what I have available to work with. Miller and Lincoln are the only two welders worth looking at where I live so I can only try out whats available. I like the miller's and have had such great luck with them that I tend to look that way. This doesn't mean that other brands are bad and if I could try them i would. I am not one to think that one brand is the best and everyone should get it. I find it funny now that I wrote about people assuming to much and when I read back through the posts I see that I did as well. I think because of this, this post has good info in it and should be of good help to others who read this.  little debate never hurt anyone and sometimes good information can be gained. I am just glad we can all stay friends. Miller DVI2Lincoln Precision Tig 225Thermodynamics Cutmaster 38Everything else needed.
Reply:I had to weigh into this topic, myself. I do not own a MIG machine, but I might one day in the future.At work we have a Hobart Tigmate. When I took the cover off to install a longer cord I discovered that the inside of the cover was blue! I snooped around and found several parts that had the Miller name.The moral of my post, this machine runs great and I will definately look at Hobart when and if I buy a MIG machine. I am not especially attached to any color, blue, grey, or red. I believe the weldor makes the welder.Richard TerryMarine engineer.............  C'mon retirement!
Reply:I like the millers alot better. I've used both and when it comes to using 110v the miller seemed like if there were any fluctuations in the incoming power that it didn't effect the weld as much as the hobart. But this is just my oppinion. When it boils down to it, which color do you like best, that's about the only difference. ESAB Tigmaster 252 Miller MillerMatic 252 migLots and Lots of toolsNot much but a startWoohooo I just got a bandsaw given to me. So bandsaw nowNow a free hydraulic press
Reply:Hello,  my 1st post on th weldingweb forum, so go easy on me...Comments like this one have me scratching my head.The MM 180 produces a noticably lower inductance level then the 187.
Reply:You hit the nail on the head about inductance.  More inductance slower response to short circuit current.  Less spatter and smother arc.  I was not sure if anyone knew Slope, inductance and how they effect the arc.  I think you input will be helpful.  JohnSMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFCand Shielding Gases.  There all here. :
Reply:Both are good machines and you could produce with either...BUT I'd buy the Miller for the fact that I can spend another $200 and have spoolgun capability. And you don't HAVE to use alum. in it. You could easily set it up with stainless.FWIW, I have a Hobart AirForce 625 Plasma and as far as I can tell, other than paint and lables, it is IDENTICAL to the Miller 625 plasma. I bought it because it was a "clearance" (going out of business) type of item, otherwise I probably would have bought blue. I think all else being equal, the Miller will have a higher resale value when and if you sell it BUT I don't think it will be much more than the Hobart would be...I think of it as a Delicious apple vs a Granny Smith apple--more people like Delicious apples, or do they?MM252 w/30AMM140 w/o AS w/SM100 w/CO2TA ArcMaster 185 TIG/StickTA 85 TIG/Stick LunchboxHobart (Miller) AirForce 625Hobart AirForce 250ciVictor O/A (bored)Lincoln Patriot AutoShade (freebie)45ACP for those stubborn jobs...
Reply:I would personally go with the Miller, but that's just my opinion. I like having the higher duty cycle that comes with the Miller. All the MIG machines I use are Miller, and I really like them for their durability and ease of use. Don't know much about MIG units though as I am a mainly stick welder. But I know on other machines that I have run, the Miller outdone the Hobart and the Hobart outdone the Lincoln. Just my .02Miller Thunderbolt XL AC/DCLincoln Ranger 8Performance Tools 6" Bench GrinderCraftsman Hand ToolsCraftsman Cordless DrillsDeWalt Angle Grinder1979 Chevrolet Silverado C101980 Ford F150 Custom1994 Chevrolet Silverado C1500
Reply:I vote for the HH 187, if you don't plan on doing any aluminum in the future, if so I would step up the HH210. It would give you a little more umph and the spool gun availability.
Reply:The question asked is which is better; Miller or Lincoln? What do you mean by “better”? You have to find the machine that “works for you”.FYI: Illinois Tool Works manufactures both Miller and Hobart (same pig-different lipstick!)A major question the welder needs to ask is this; can this machine be maintained or if it needs repair will you have to junk it and buy something new?Look at most new Mig machines (the make doesn’t matter-they are all basically the same). Can it be repaired economically? If the answer is no-keep looking or expect to buy a new one.Example most new single-phase mig (and plasma) power supplies have one PC board that controls-EVERYTHING! If your machine fails and you are under warranty (and you can get someone to repair your machine under warranty!)-your OK-for the time being. When your machine is out of warranty, you are going to shell out 4, 5 or $600.00 for a new replacement PC board; that is not repairable! All the major’s new equipment have PC boards are “throw-away”; they cannot be repaired. Many distributors will not honor parts warranties if you do not pay them to install the part (Sorry Charlie!). The manufacture’s don’t care!When you are burning wire you are making money-when your screwing around with a welding machine, that won’t weld, it is costing you money. There is nothing in between!Ever wonder why the old Lincoln SA-200, 250’s, and 400 are so popular with their owners (yes they have a great arc!) they are maintainable. The aftermarket has made great strides in upgrading the machine. You can buy most everything for them and they are simple enough you can fix them!It’s your money spend it wisely.Doc
Reply:Hobart is the cheap line, miller is the pro line. Everything is made a little heavier. If you plan on using it daily get the miller or the lincoln from your lws (yes it is a different machine than the one you get at lowes). Before Hobart was bought out they were as good as you could get, but unfortunately now they have been cheapened up some.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:Jolly Roger,I call BS on your comments regarding Hobart/Miller.Both companies are part of ITW.  Hobart focuses on the consumer market.  Miller focuses on the industrial market.  You want to tell the Hobart engineers that they build a "cheap" machine?You sure spew a lot of BS mixed in with a little insightful information.Oh, and by the way, I've read your profile and understand how GREAT you think you are.  I'm older than you are.  I've been welding longer than you have.  And obviously, had better mentors/instruction than you've had.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I say miller hands down.Guy_48Welding is an art......Millermatic 252Lincoln SP175PlusLincoln 225 AC/DC