Question about Spray Transfer

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I guess this isnt a stupid question now that since I am asking it. I have the want to try aluminum, I have read about this and ask several friends about it. I was told that the 180 Clarke I have will do this with a telflone liner and dont quote me but I think 5356 alloy. He is telling me that this alloy is slightly more ridgid the the 40 series alloys, its all greek to me right now.My main question is he has told me to start with 3/4 to 1" stick out strike the arc then more in. But I am lost when he has said to slow the wire speed untill I get to a spray arc mode. I didnt think I could get spray with this machine. The post that I have read all seem to point to a 200 plus machine. Is any of my free advise even close.Thanks Tom
Reply:well you can spray aluminum i did it all day today at work. basically spray is just a low wire speed.  i dont believe its in the machine i think they all can its just comes down to set up.  as far as stick out you dont need it but if you can contoll a pre and post flow with your gun trigger then do that. if not it shouldnt be a problem.
Reply:oops!
Reply:Think as if your ability to attain spray transfer depends on the amount of energy per square inch required to ionize the selected shield gas... Ar ionizes very easily, CO2 requires much more... larger diameter wire requires more energy (more square inches to energize) by changes in the combinations of gas blend, wire size, and amperage (wire feed speed) we taylor the amount of arc energy (total wattage, just like a lightbulb) to the need at hand, much like using a different size acetylene torch-tip for different jobs... incomplete mastery equates to using perhaps just one size tip or just one setting of the gas valve on different sized torches; incomplete control limits our final resultspure Ar will not provide eough arc energy to permit any practical short circuit transfer of filler metal... the only practical arc you get out of it will be the highly liquid, horizontal-only spray transfer if youre welding with 100% Ar, its 'automatically' a spray to be surethis question seems to be the 'holy grail' of GMAW, and a thorough command of arc energy physics is what seperates the machine operators from real welders, competent in their craftO2 and CO2 do the same thing when mixed wf Ar- but it takes much less O2 to equate to CO2 in the Argon mix and smaller errors in filling and blending O2 with Ar cause bigger problems when welding... CO2 actually adds energy by chemical breakdown (technical term is 'dissociation') in an electric arc... He(lium) also makes it more difficult to ionize when blended with Ar and is used when O2 or CO2 would react with the weld... the physics and chemistry behind shielding gas control is really simple enough to understand, it can be difficult finding resources willing to teach the straight-dope without confusing you to tears however... the gas affects fusion and the penetration profile (the amount of heat input to the weld and how wide or narrowly it is focused)-while youre learning you could cut accross your welds to investigate the penetration profile and fusion while you make the other typical bend and notch tests on your practice weldmentseverything you never wanted to know is at weldreality.com about filler alloy, size and shielding gas mixes- even though the focus is primarily robotic, physics is physics everywhere in the known universe... a darn good place to search all through toward understanding how to achieve a proper weld profile; both inside the weld as well as the visible part of the weld-beadnow also is a good time to start building a good repoir with your supply house; saving a few cents at the mass merchants will never match the service they can potentially provide when your chips are down... let them know youre willing to help them make a buck if theyre willing to return the courtesy  regardsdLast edited by jd2; 03-14-2008 at 04:39 AM.
Reply:With a 180 machine and .035 5356, you can get into spray transfer mode. It has a lot to do with aluminums' lower melting temperature of approx. 1100f. The 180 machines with small diameter wire can get close to spray transfer on steel, but it does not have the oomph to push steel over the edge very well. And yes, a helium argon mix will burn hotter, and can increase the core heat for spray transfer to go into full effect.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:Except that helium added to the argon raises the needed voltage to get the arc ionized.  That voltage may or may not be achievable with a 180-class machine.Turning the wire speed down is reducing the amperage, and because of the way many welding machines are made and configured, that lets the voltage rise up somewhat.  Yes on the teflon liner to weld aluminum with a regular torch (as opposed to a spool gun) for two reasons.  One, the regular coiled steel liner has some oil on it from the factory and from any previous steel wire you ran through the liner.  Aluminum welding really-really-really has to be clean, both the workpiece and the filler wire.  The oil in the regular coiled steel liner wire will mess up an attempted aluminum weld.Two, because aluminum wire is softer and bends -much- easier than a comparable diameter steel wire, trying to push 10 feet of soft aluminum wire through a rough coiled steel liner is difficult to very-difficult because of friction against the liner.  The Teflon liner is smooth and very slippery, so the friction of the wire against the liner is greatly reduced.  Which lets the wire slide through the liner much easier compared to the coiled steel liner.For welding aluminum, you use argon as the shielding gas, or an argon-helium mix for thicker sections where you need more energy (heat) going into the weld.  No CO2 or O2 in the mix for welding on aluminum!!!!  The transition amperage for aluminum wire MIG to get into spray transfer is about 95-135 amps for 0.030-0.045 wire diameters (ESAB didn't list 0.035 in the table, so I bracketed).  That is -IF- the machine can push enough voltage at that amperage.  Most 180-class machines can usually nudge into spray transfer with argon and 0.035 aluminum wire.  YMMV.Regarding the filler wire type or alloy designation, 5356 and 4043 are the two 'common' small diameter aluminum MIG wires.  5356 is slightly stiffer than 4043 and hence will feed a little bit better through a 10 foot long gun cable, but 4043 is a little bit more fluid puddle when you are doing the welding.  Also, the two alloys have other different characteristics concerning anodizing the weld afterward and high-temp service limits (where "high-temperature" is only 150F for aluminum).  And you also should make sure that the workpiece is a weldable aluminum alloy (some aluminum is not weldable, or weldable only with special fillers or other difficulties), and that you filler wire is compatible with the workpiece alloy.You can get a lot of this information yourself by reading articles and such from the Miller, Lincoln, and ESAB websites.www.millerwelds.comwww.lincolnelectric.comwww.esabna.com  (for ESAB North America, if you are in a different locale, go to the main ESAB site at www.esab.com and then click on the world map to get the right region for you).
Reply:I don't think I've ever read a worse link related to spray transfer.Welder155 obviously doesn't have a clue.Other posters quote a lot of gobblygook from some text without understanding what it means.There are a lot of sources dealing with the advantages/disadvantages of using spray transfer and what is required to achieve it, but THIS THREAD IS NOT ONE OF THEM.Quite frankly, with all that's been posted on this thread, I wouldn't know where to start to explain the process.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIII don't think I've ever read a worse link related to spray transfer.Welder155 obviously doesn't have a clue.Other posters quote a lot of gobblygook from some text without understanding what it means.There are a lot of sources dealing with the advantages/disadvantages of using spray transfer and what is required to achieve it, but THIS THREAD IS NOT ONE OF THEM.Quite frankly, with all that's been posted on this thread, I wouldn't know where to start to explain the process.
Reply:Per ESAB,  minimum current to achieve spray transfer:steel 0.030 wire, 98-2 Ar-O2 = 150Asteel 0.035 wire, 98-2 Ar-O2 = 165Asteel 0.045 wire, 98-2 Ar-O2 = 220Aaluminum 0.030 wire, argon = 95Aaluminum 0.046 wire, argon = 135Ahttp://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig1_6.htmWhether the OP's Clarke 180 MIG has enough volts and amps to drive 0.035 aluminum wire into spray transfer is the YMMV part.
Reply:Just a few of my thoughts.  To Tom37.  Its going to be miserable.  Aluminum CAN be pushed through a mig gun, but its like pushing a rope.  It just doesn't work well.  If you do achieve spray transfer, your gun is likely to melt down soon because of the heat reflected back on it.CAN you do it?  Probably.Will it be successful?  Probably not.  I tried aluminum on a mig welder with out the spool gun.  Its a bitch even for short circuit.Let us know if you try it and how it works out.  I tried it....Once.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I agree with David.  Possible: yes.  Enjoyable, non-problematic and yeilding good results: no.  For better results mig welding aluminum, at least use a spool gun.  For best results, use a pulser and a push-pull feeder/torch.That much I know from experience.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Holy Moly!!!!!         Sorry all. There isnt much that I do thats just simple and easy. I work on phone lines for a living and I want to make a tool to ease instalation. I dont know if this is happening all over or just in KC but we are loosing alot of copper cable to the copper thieves. Alot of the wire they are stealing is in the range of 3 to 9 pounds a foot, and to replace it I have to lift it near 20 feet high. The lifting rig I want to build is simple but has to be built just right to work easy. I would have it built but I cant put it on paper and there is so many things that I have in my head and cant get to paper, and it may even be like I weld it and look at it and dont like it so I will cut it back off. I am near thinking that I may use aluminum plate for the sides to house my rollers then bolt the hanging bracket to the plate. Then I can use mild steal for the iffy stuff. I will try to find a pic of a similar device that I can post.BTW thanks for all the input. Its nice to hear an answer that doesnt make a person feel like a retard. I am sure some that are here know more then Websters and I feel privilaged that they share what they know.Thank You Tom
Reply:Here is a pic of a simaliar tool.I need to make a sort of a flair on the front to act as a guide to funnel the cable into the unit with out damage. Now for the tricky part, this rides on a steal strand that is attached to the poles. I need to be able to pass this unit past the pole without taking it off the strand meaning that it needs to have three rollers up top. That somehow can swing into place, take the weight while the second roller is folded out untill the pass then so on for the third roller. Now I have an idea in my head but if anyone has any cool ideas I would love to hear them. I should start building tomorrow afternoon. If I can make the camera working I will post the pics as I go.Thanks Tom
Reply:Ok that's a cool idea.  I do have this to say about your situation though--  If you're intending to build this hanger from aluminum to hold this very heavy cable way up high in the air where there are likely people working below it, and you don't have experience welding aluminum and intend to weld it with a machine that may or may not do a satisfactory job even in the hands of someone who knows how to weld aluminum... I have to say-- DONT WELD IT.   Either have someone else with the proper equipment and experience with aluminum weld it for you, or make it out of steel if your experience is good in steel.   Someone, including yourself, could get really hurt if this device lets go and that cable falls.Last edited by DesertRider33; 03-15-2008 at 03:45 AM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:I used to work for a cable company.  I know just what you are looking for Except the pass the pole on the strand thing.  Can't one be purchased?  I used to repair lashers  .Like DeseRtrider33 said, if you don't have the exp, don't weld a lifting device.  DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Tom37,David R and DesertRider33 have given you the best advice you've received thus far in this thread.  Enough said.  Just don't do it.MoonRise was correct with the information he posted relative to required volts to achieve spray transfer.  What he didn't go into detail on was the high WFS (read amps) necessary to achieve spray.  I have not seen .023 aluminum wire available and you couldn't push it 10' anyway so we won't talk about it.  .030 wire is also a bi--h to try to push thru a normal liner (without spoolgun), so we're basically talking .035 aluminum which requires a MINIMUM of 110A at a MINIMUM WFS of 425 IPM.  Those numbers are bare minimums.  In reality, higher numbers are required to achieve true spray.  With that said, a 180A machine's duty cycle at those numbers is EXTREMELY low.  Bottom line.  Not something you want to do.All the BS about Argon/Helium mix is inmaterial.  Ar/He mix is only recommended for plate over 1" thick.  You're not doing that with the Clarke.Welder155 needs to go back and read the description for "SPRAY TRANSFER".  It is not "just low wire speed".  Spray transfer (as opposed to short arc) is actually characterized (for steel and alum) by higher voltage and much higher WFS (read amps).  I think, based on his posting, that he's clueless regarding spray.If any of the "experts" on the board find exception with my comments, you're more than free to "fire away".  I'm one who feels that "bad postings" are worse than "no postings".Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Jamlit,According to my data (from Miller's Gas Metal Arc Welding handbook), in order to achieve spray tranfer on steel, using .030 wire (no data even available for .023 wire which I wouldn't recommend anyway) and an Ar + 1-5%O2 mix, you will need a minimum of 24V and 330 IPM wirespeed (about 135A).  I suspect the DVI would be a marginal machine at best.  I really think the MM210/212 is the bottom line for what I would consider a spray arc capable machine.  You may want to swing over to the Hobart board and do a search on spray transfer.  Check out some of the postings by Dan, who is a "mig guru".With the larger machines, many welders are using a 90%Ar/10%CO2 mix for spray transfer.  Works well but requires a few more volts than the O2 mix.I've always used the Ar/O2 mix, however I recently got interested in mixing my own gasses.  After a little "serious shopping" I acquired a Smith 2 Gas Proportional mixer which will allow me to mix Argon (from my tig) with O2 (from the Ox/Ac).  I'm looking forward to trying some different Ar/O2 mixes.  Also, with serious shopping, I acquired a Thermco 8500 gas blender (impressive equipment) which is designed for blending Ar/CO2.  I'll use that for blending my own C25 as well as my own C10 (90%Ar/10%CO2) for spray transfer.  Once I get the system up and running I'll post results.If you don't already have it, Miller's GMAW Handbook as well as their Tig Handbook are excellent reference sources.  They can be downloaded from the Miller site, or ordered in hardcopy.  If ordering, I'd recommend the Student Package which includes both books.Don't mean to come across as a "know it all", (I'm definitely not) but I do have problems with posters who seem to habitually post erroneous information.  A lot of the newbe's can't tell the difference between good and bad guidance.  I spent 22yrs in Spec Ops and didn't develop a lot of "tact".Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:OK everyone can rest at ease, IF I make it from aluminum it will only after I build and perfect it from mild steal. At this point I can take to a pro and have a dupilacate made. I agree will everyone about being dangerous overhead. I can buy the one in the pic but it weighs 30+ lbs. The weight isnt really an issue as long as I can pass it by the pole. I know that a persom used to be able to buy something like this, at least in the old days. But I cant find one to save my life.  For the record the aluminum is out of the picture untill I can afford a large unit of untill my dad decides he really didnt need the new Miller that he just had to have in case he needed to weld something. MAN I wish I had the money to buy like he does. Thanks againTom
Reply:Originally Posted by tom37For the record the aluminum is out of the picture untill I can afford a large unit of untill my dad decides he really didnt need the new Miller that he just had to have in case he needed to weld something. MAN I wish I had the money to buy like he does. Thanks againTom
Reply:Man oh man you hit the nail on the head Rojodiablo.I'm not at the point of eating noodles yet, but I do use your theory about buying tools (well for the most part). Can be a bummer tho, I'v been looking at electric chainsaw sharpners for soom time now. Bought one yesterday and now the price has went up by 40 bucks. My project got put on hold this afternoon, wifey strongly suggested I clean the garage. Cant win this one but I can make her happier. And a happy wife is the best kind to have.Have a good evening
Reply:Originally Posted by David RJust a few of my thoughts.  To Tom37.  Its going to be miserable.  Aluminum CAN be pushed through a mig gun, but its like pushing a rope.  It just doesn't work well.  If you do achieve spray transfer, your gun is likely to melt down soon because of the heat reflected back on it.CAN you do it?  Probably.Will it be successful?  Probably not.  I tried aluminum on a mig welder with out the spool gun.  Its a bitch even for short circuit.Let us know if you try it and how it works out.  I tried it....Once.David
Reply:Originally Posted by weldgaultDavid, short arc with aluminum is very difficult because of the short circuit current on most GMAW machines.  The Miller CP252 TS has the capability to change the slope on the inside of the cover and allow less current for short arc and does a good job on alum. Put the 3 leads on all three terminals on 12, that gives the power supply more resistance.   John
Reply:Originally Posted by CaptainWillySo are you saying the only thing thats "easy" with aluminum is globular transfer?
Reply:I'm lost sorry...   if your not using a machine with the power to spray its gonna short circuit transfer isnt it? the whole thread is about what it takes to acheive spray on aluminum, what happens before spray on a machine that doesnt have the power if you need to adjust the slope to get into short arc?Theres gotta be machines underpowered for spray and without slope adjustments but can still weld aluminum right? I'm guessing aluminum is way different than the transfer principles of steel?I like to party!
Reply:Looks like I gotta fire up the spoolgun and see.  DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.Sorry for the confusion.  The need to study Slope, Short Circuit Current and Volt-Amp Curve is necessary to understand the need to lower the short curcit current, to short arc Aluminum.  David, this is the reason you and everyone else has trouble shortarcing Alum. and Miller has the machine, should someone be interested. Again, there is not much need for short arc of alum.  JohnSMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFCand Shielding Gases.  There all here. :
Reply:John,How do you explain all the positive comments coming from owners of the new Miller Passport Plus w/spoolgun, regarding how well it welds aluminum.Has Miller created some new "slope control"?Is that "little" mig welder producing a "spray transfer"?Enlightenment would be appreciated.PS  John, I seriously think you should consider adding "HOT AIR" to your signature.  Seems it would be just as appropriate as all the other "qualifications" you list.Last edited by SundownIII; 03-17-2008 at 05:19 PM.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Yeah, we are a little off topic.  I cut up some aluminum today for  class on Saturday.  I am going to try short circuit, and see how low I can go and still spray.  Spool gun is out and so is the only roll of .030 AL wire I have.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I think part of the confusion here is not everyone is on the same page.   Aluminum sprays at less voltage/heat than steel.   Forget about steel and any parameters referring to steel.  I forget what settings I used to use to spray .035" 4043 on 16 ga aluminum without pulse cause it's been awhile and I mostly used pulse, but without pulse, spray still happened at a low enough voltage and wire speed that most any 220v mig welder should be able to spray it.   For some reason, ~18v and ~280 in/min is comming to mind but I'd have to go out and try it to say for sure.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op