new guy and some cast

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hay this is my first post, im for the most part new at welding, ive held a mig and ran a few beads a few dozen times in my life but i dont know the set up and stuff... enuf about me. lets talk a bout me and my oooollllld linweld 180 arc i got it free and it works good, i was working on my jeep today and grinded alittle to much off of a steering knuckle while installing a high crossover tierod, can i use my old girl to fill that in and grind it flush again, i know there are issues with welding cast i just dont know what they are? this is not structural and a failure will not cause my wheels to fall off... that is unless welding on the cast will weaken it or something ???/ i have a box of 6011 will this do??? my life could be at steak
Reply:do everyone a favor and take it to a professional or just buy a new one. No, your wheels wont fall off, but you also wont be able to steer and may end up hitting another vehicle in the process. This isn't a project for a novice. and if you fix it, and it fails good luck having insurance cover it. you'd be souly liable for all damages.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammer you'd be souly liable for all damages.
Reply:seriously this is something a washer could fix or i could run it the way it is and be fine, just curious if heating the cast will make it brittle
Reply:heres more detail i beveled the edge around the hole that the tie rod bolts into, i want to add some material to un bevel  it, on doing some further research maybe some brazing would be my answer, because "bring it to a pro" doesnt help me learn anything at all and that is what i am trying to do!Last edited by dts99; 01-27-2012 at 08:48 PM.
Reply:Learn your limitations.  You have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run.This is not a job for a rank amateur.Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:Originally Posted by dts99...because "bring it to a pro" doesnt help me learn anything at all and that is what i am trying to do!
Reply:I would add that your probably not going to find a welder worth his salt that would touch it. Even if it appears to be welded properly it will likely fail at the worst possible time (Murphy's law). If it was an exhaust manifold or something less critical you could do it yourself or take it to someone. It's simply not worth the risk.
Reply:ok ok il put a washer on it instead.. you still havent answered why tho so, i think your like hvac guys and think your siht dont stink and nobody can do your job but you
Reply:Hey dts99,You were given the correct answers. Yup......you're definitely new to welding & by your use of the English language, you DEFINITELY should let a PROFESSIONAL do any kind of work you need done.DennyComplete Welding/Machine/Fab. ShopMobile UnitFinally retired*Moderator*"A man's word is his honor...without honor there is nothing.""Words are like bullets.... Once they leave your muzzle, you cannot get them back."
Reply:i am not going to weld it because i believe there is merit to you consern but seriously do you tell your kids they CANT do stuff or do you show them how? im looking for information, i see plenty of other stuff about cast on here, i am a talented person, i can learn to do anything i have plenty of money and could go but a new knuckle but what i am trying to do would be about as basic of a cast repair that is possible (a good starting point), i am going to get jb weld and a washer that WILL fix this, i just thought id try to learn something, Thanks for not helping
Reply:Come here and ask pros.  Don't like the answer.  Hmm.Maybe this will help you understand   I would not weld on my own steering knuckle.I am a New York State Motor Vehicle Inspector.  If I see weld, flat washer or JB weld on a tie rod end or steering knuckle, its an instant FAIL.I went to high school with a fella that had his front end jury rigged.   It fell apart, he went off the road and killed his girlfriend.  He was fine, so it was no big deal......Know what NOT TO F WITH.DavidLast edited by David R; 01-28-2012 at 08:48 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:im glad you inspect cars at northwood high school but seriously i know its common practis to pick on the new guy in forums, why arnt you people welding something great so you can call your friend and have them come look at, jb weld and washers save lives!!!!
Reply:Originally Posted by dts99ok ok il put a washer on it instead.. you still havent answered why tho so, i think your like hvac guys and think your siht dont stink and nobody can do your job but you
Reply:why dont you go ask on some jeep forum, see what they say.Last edited by yesindeed; 01-28-2012 at 08:55 AM.Millermatic 211Everlast 200DX Thermal Arc 181iKlutch ST80i lunchbox stick welderLincoln Weld-Pak 100Century Stick welderPowermax 30 plasma cutterHenrob 2000 torchLogan 200 lathe (60 years old)Clausing 6339 Lathe (for sale)
Reply:hay guys i just emailed my normal fab guy he gave me the expalantion i was looking for, here this is how your should treat people....its not really the process for cast, thats why i told u, ur creating more work for urself, u gotta tig it and if you arc it and contaminate the steel once with heat, porosity and that glass from the arc bead, it'll be impossible to tig it the right way cuz u gotta remove all that weld, plus reheating will smoke the cast, but its your funeral. my suggestion is strongly against it.but what the hell do i know......he gave me the same answer as you but explaide WHY! was that so hard. , SIMPLE explanation was all i wanted
Reply:Cast expands and contracts at a different rate than other metals. Combine that fact with the fact that it is a brittle material to begin with and it gets to be harder to repair than other metals.  When you weld on it and introduce all that heat in a localized area it expands at it's rate and cools at it's rate while the weld material cools at it's own rate. Pop, broken part.So, no, DFWI.Two turn tables and a microphone.
Reply:I want to see pics of your high steer setup. Most high steer setups bolt to the top of the flat top knuckles if it is dana 44 stuff. This area on top must be machined flat as the surface area between that and the arm is where your strength comes from not the bolts.  If you were grinding at all then I am thinking you didn't create a nice flat spot for the arm to bolt to. Also welding cast iron is always a no no on something like this cause the area around the weld will become very hard and brittle and can crack, that crack may go anywhere including right down the middle of the knuckle causing catasrophic failure. honestly jb weld and then machine everything flat isn't a bad idea depending of course on how the error was made and location.Millermatic 252Lincoln 175 plusTA 185tswTA 161stlhypertherm pmax 45Victor torchHenrob torchAn S10 for each day of the week
Reply:This guy must be a Troll.  Too young to drive, not educated, and lots of negative attitude.  Not a great number or posts but he is sure keeping this thread alive.Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:Poster does not know if its cast iron or cast steel.   I have said enough.Please don't hurt your self or others.DavidDTS99-Join Date 1-27-2012Leave date?Last edited by David R; 01-28-2012 at 10:29 AM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by PangeaCast expands and contracts at a different rate than other metals. Combine that fact with the fact that it is a brittle material to begin with and it gets to be harder to repair than other metals.  When you weld on it and introduce all that heat in a localized area it expands at it's rate and cools at it's rate while the weld material cools at it's own rate. Pop, broken part.So, no, DFWI.
Reply:Originally Posted by NiteskyThis guy must be a Troll.  Too young to drive, not educated, and lots of negative attitude.  Not a great number or posts but he is sure keeping this thread alive.
Reply:Originally Posted by dts99i own a very sucsessfull tree bsiness, i fix almost everthing i own, my welding skill is limited, i am here to learn , the internet is good for more than just porn you know.. ps i did the job with the washer cost me 65 cents
Reply:Originally Posted by Pangea65 cents!  Goodgawdahmighty!  You got robbed!
Reply:Are steering knuckles cast steel or iron?Of course number one, any add on kit that requires grinding on or modifying OEM parts is either a piss poor kit or isn't being installed correctly. Any well designed and/or properly installed kit should function (play well) with all the original pieces/parts. If some kit requires hacking, grinding, bending or otherwise weakening or destroying the OEM equipment then you've got the wrong kit or shouldn't be doing what you're doing.Number two, if any part needing to be welded back has precision interior tapers, bearing surfaces or splines very near the area to be welded then that mating surface is going to be negatively altered by the welding process. If it is a slop fit where flush fit or thinning down isn't a problem then it shouldn't be a part of any steering system.I realize I'm off on a tangent here. I just don't think that the 'cast iron' or 'cast steel' question should have even come up."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:dts,we're not picking on the new guys. we're saying don't do it. Yes some guys get a little gruff when someone new comes it full of piss and vinegar and thinks they're capable of anything. "anything you can do I can do better". but more often than not that is not the case. If someone asks a question that is above their head. it is safer for us to say, DON'T DO IT and not give any information as to why. because more often than not, in order to explain why they shouldn't, you have to explain what to do. Thus giving them the answer they are looking for and not the answer they need. In this case it's was the answer you needed that you got. Personally I think you're being Cheap. you're putting the lives of others on a $.65 washer. A washer that was not designed be included in the set up you're working with. Under proper torque the washer will move, the part will wear faster than it should and will fail sooner than it should. If you're going to do something. Do it right the first time. because when it does fail you'll be replacing more than just a steering knuckle. I understand fixing stuff yourself saves money, and it makes you feel better about what you're working with because you gain a better understanding of the tool you're using. That being said. Just because you can fix somethings yourself doesn't mean you should. Some times it's a smarter decision to spend the money and make someone else liable if it fails. Granted. You are still on the hook if you over load, miss use, or damage the item you're using before it fails. Personally, I feel that if they make a replacement part. They make it for a reason. and instead of repairing something and giving myself more liability, I buy the part and pass that liability on. Besides, their pockets are deeper than mine.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by dts99hay guys i just emailed my normal fab guy he gave me the expalantion i was looking for, here this is how your should treat people....its not really the process for cast, thats why i told u, ur creating more work for urself, u gotta tig it and if you arc it and contaminate the steel once with heat, porosity and that glass from the arc bead, it'll be impossible to tig it the right way cuz u gotta remove all that weld, plus reheating will smoke the cast, but its your funeral. my suggestion is strongly against it.but what the hell do i know......he gave me the same answer as you but explaide WHY! was that so hard. , SIMPLE explanation was all i wanted
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyOf course number one, any add on kit that requires grinding on or modifying OEM parts is either a piss poor kit or isn't being installed correctly. Any well designed and/or properly installed kit should function (play well) with all the original pieces/parts. If some kit requires hacking, grinding, bending or otherwise weakening or destroying the OEM equipment then you've got the wrong kit or shouldn't be doing what you're doing.Number two, if any part needing to be welded back has precision interior tapers, bearing surfaces or splines very near the area to be welded then that mating surface is going to be negatively altered by the welding process. If it is a slop fit where flush fit or thinning down isn't a problem then it shouldn't be a part of any steering system.I realize I'm off on a tangent here. I just don't think that the 'cast iron' or 'cast steel' question should have even come up.
Reply:meborder makes some points.I said I would say no more  I THINK the knuckle in question is cast steel.  All the title says is cast.Get another knuckle then take yours and weld away on it.Is it cast steel or cast Iron?Drill it, the filings will be powder if its cast Iron.  No twisted pieces of metal will come off the bit, only chips.Hit it with a grinder.   Short orange or red sparks that don't go far and do not have tails mean its cast Iron. Long yellow sparks with tails that will go 6 feet or so mean its cast steel.Both are weldable but in totally different ways.I think its cast steel or even forged.Does this washer take up for the taper because the nut will not go on far enough?DavidLast edited by David R; 01-28-2012 at 05:24 PM.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:dts99 Us old guys have a hard time reading stuff with no punctation and misspelled stuff...... A picture would help me to give you an answer. And my old eyes can't see well so no crappy out of focus phone pictures please. You are probably dealing with cast steel as some already said. I agree the "safety police" can be kind of hard on you, but smart azzed replies will not get you anywhere.PeterEquipment:2  old paws2  eyes (that don't look so good)1  bad back
Reply:its cast steel, when i drilled it shaveings came of not powder, heres the finished product
Reply:Yeah, your gonna die.Two turn tables and a microphone.
Reply:Its all but over boy's Attached Images
Reply:The new generation, you ask for a focus picture not out of focus. What do you get?? An out of focus picture. Srry I had to comment on this one
Reply:Originally Posted by DanthemanThe new generation, you ask for a focus picture not out of focus. What do you get?? An out of focus picture. Srry I had to comment on this one
Reply:i would have said the steering parts were most likely forgings.miller thunderbolt 250vlincoln square wave tig 175 prolincoln idealarc mig sp250everlast tig 210EXTeverlast power plasma 50chicago electric (hf) 130 tig/90 arcchicago electric 90 amp flux wire3 sets oxy/acet
Reply:Originally Posted by 76GMC1500Are steering knuckles cast steel or iron?
Reply:I am surprised anyone replies to these ill advised attempts to weld something that an experienced welder wouldn't touch.  We get so many similar requests from new welders there should be a sticky post with a list of things that should never be welded by inexperieced welders, require special expertise and/or equipment  or should never be welded by anyone.After the vast majority of responses to your post say don't do it because it is unsafe, you expect to be given the help to do what you request anyway.  I just don't want to contribute to your negligence."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:im going to go weld my galvanized boat trailer in my bacement, if you never here from me agian its because , nobody told me not to in a sticky
Reply:Originally Posted by DanthemanThe new generation, you ask for a focus picture not out of focus. What do you get?? An out of focus picture. Srry I had to comment on this one
Reply:Originally Posted by dts99its figgen cell phone the old kind with bottons,, find soem more off topic stuff wrong, hows th wear on my tires, are my ball joints ok? rediculious
Reply:Most suspension/steering components are forged ... not cast ... of medium carbon steel (1035-1050).  Auto manufacturers would rather have parts bend in a collision rather than break.  Unless you know the alloy and heat treatment, welding is not a good idea.Dynasty 300DXSmith He/Ar gas mixerMM350PHobart Handler 120Smith LW7, MW5, AW1A
Reply:you can pick on my spelling and punctuation all you want, this isnt a english forum... most of you guys should be really embarressed, when somebody comes on and is smart enuf to give me a knowledgeable answer, he figured out that A. i didnt even know what i was working with B. told me how to figure that out,and C. how to do it. , that is how this should work, you look like fools to me to big for your own brittches, i thought i saw mountians but it was the chipps on your shoulders,.... i didnt want to use the washer at all i wanted to fill in the tapper i ground around the top of the hole, i cupped it out with a dremmel i wanted to run a bead around grind it flat and drill the hole out, just cuz i felt like it, that washer will work just fine
Reply:By nicking it, you coulda induced a stress point that may cause a crack at a later date.  That's why people grind and polish connecting rods.   I try to DIY everything possible, but I'd seriously pass on any repair on a critical component.  Is your life worth $100?TA Arcmaster 300CM3XMT 304S22P12 suitcase feederX-Treme 12VSOptima pulserTA161SMaxstar 150STLHypertherm PM45OP setupStihl 020AVP, 039, 066 Magnum
Reply:Originally Posted by Drf255By nicking it, you coulda induced a stress point that may cause a crack at a later date.  That's why people grind and polish connecting rods.   I try to DIY everything possible, but I'd seriously pass on any repair on a critical component.  Is your life worth $100?
Reply:[quote=dts99;739741]im going to go weld my galvanized boat trailer in my bacement, if you never here from me agian its because , nobody told me not to in a sticky[/qTROLLINGLast edited by Nitesky; 01-30-2012 at 11:41 AM.Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammernope, his and everyone else driving around him is only worth .65dts,You're a cheap hack who thinks he's better than everyone because you did what you wanted to, even though everyone with some common sense told you it was a bad idea. We've given you the reasons why it's a bad idea. Yet you still try to blame us for not telling you exactly what you wanted to hear. I'm just glad I'm no where near you or any vehicles you may have touched. There is a reason the stearing knuckle was as thick as it was. There was a reason that it was a solid piece. There is a reason that the taper on the hole must be uniform and circular. (I am confident in saying that you're use of a diegrinder to taper the hole is not uniform nor perfectly circular) What math and science do you have to back up your claim that "the washer will be good enough"?All you've accomplished is to put your life and the lives of those around you in danger because you're to stuburn and to cheap to admit you F'ed up and buy a new knuckle. Congrats. I hope you feel as good about yourself when your hack job fails and you kill someones kid.
Reply:Originally Posted by MeborderI'm not really trying to stick my nose in the middle of this, but i really can't see where you are coming from.The steering knuckle was modified, by removing the taper, as per the instructions included in his high-steer kit.  Where he messed up is his modification to try and chamfer the top edge of the hole.  The washer is, in this case, being used to restore the shape of the hole where the heim joint bolts up.by the pictures, the washer is being used as a washer should be used.  So long as the tie rod end is properly tensioned, the washer is the proper diameter for the tie rod end, and there is at least 2 full threads exposed (to verify proper thread engagement), the repair looks entirely appropriate. Now, if the thickness of the washer was such that all the threads of the nut were not engaged in the tie rod end, then you position would be accurate.  I cannot see how the joint is compromised by the washer.  The tie rod bears on the inside of the knuckle and clamping force is applied on one end by the nut, and the tie rod on the other.  The bearing surfaces have not be compromised in any way.Granted, replacing the knuckle is probably the best course of action, but the washer is hardly an issue.  Keep in mind, your bridges and light poles are held up by bolts that fit in oversized holes and washers under the bolt and the nut.  The only difference is that they would spec out A307 or A325 grade washers, instead of Grade 8.  The reason for this is to assure that the washer is harder than the steel it connects, which in this case Grade 8 is certainly harder than cast steel.You seem to be awfully hard on guys who do things differently than you would do.  I'm not picking on you, but by your logic, this lift kit has no buisness on the road what-so-ever, simply because it modifys the knuckle joint in a way other than is OEM.
Reply:When we raced radio controlled cars we used tie rod ends like that.  Put a large washer on the top too and its called a "Captured" tie rod end.  No matter what you did it could not pop off.This is not a toy car. JB weld, Die grinder, front end parts  Big washer  = Hack  From here it looks like the end does not have much room if any to twist back and forth like the joint was designed to.  Compare it to the bottom one.Call me a dick, I've seen this stuff before30 year Mechanic.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.