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Got some teeth to work onThe teeth are on, and it's ready to scrape some manureFace of teeth will be ground to a point, and a reverse angle ground on bottom side of teeth paralel to the ground.Built up welds at top of teeth where attached to moldboard will be left as is to hopefully collect dirt to form a wear pad.  No point in smoothing these welds out.The material is 1/2" flat.  Factory made teeth are not made to mount at the angle required, and bar stock is too expensive to justify it's use.  Besides, this thing isn't made to break rocksI feel the angle is sufficient to pull the blade down into a combination of hay, mud, and manure.  Whether the moldboard will release the load is the big question.  It's a pretty aggressive angle at the bottom.  The moisture content, and how the blade surface scours with time will be a big factor.  Heavy and wet, or nice and dry......no problem.  It's the tacky stuff that's a problem.It was nice to have the larger machine for the 5/32.  I wish I had some 1/4 around but don't use it that often to justify having a bunch laying around.The 5/32 ran very well in the mid 180amp range.  And it's nice not to worry about duty cycles.The new AD hood is the bomb for these short repetitive welds.  And it's the first time in many years that I didn't have a headache after welding for a while.  Shade #12 was excellent for the larger rod, and as the sun started setting #13 was perfect.  I wish I'd picked up one of these things years ago.Put a kickstand on it tomorrow, and it's ready for the paint "shop"Uranus Farm Implements, division of Uranus Inc."From Uranus to your dinner table, helping to solve the worlds food shortage with innovative products" Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:What do you think the weight will be out there at the end samm ? My guess is for what you're wanting to do the weight should be enough. Shouldn't have to worry much about cutting angles and all. Only small problem could be the teeth will build up real quick with straw and the whole thing will slide on the straw. In that case you're back to teeth only.
Reply:Originally Posted by SandyWhat do you think the weight will be out there at the end samm ? My guess is for what you're wanting to do the weight should be enough. Shouldn't have to worry much about cutting angles and all. Only small problem could be the teeth will build up real quick with straw and the whole thing will slide on the straw. In that case you're back to teeth only.
Reply:Here ya go Sandy   I scrounged up some old picsThe ground varies depending on how close to the feeder you are.  From lots of hay, to hay mixed with God Knows What  And finally a silt sorta stuffA rake will work close in, but won't work further out.Plus to make a rake with teeth close enough, and strudy enough, to pull a heavy straw load would essentially make it into a bladeMoving the feeders is out, because you can see what damage the concentrated cows do the ground.  You'd have damaged circles all over the pasture.  I've seen it on other folks places.  Specially during a bad winter where you have a lot of rain, and you can't move the feeders.Also, bear in mind, the feeders I build are around 800lbs or so.  PITA to move even with a loader.  It's not like just flipping the feeder over the bale, the bale has to be put in the feeder thru a gate.  Or if the gate approach is mired in, you have to come from the side and dump the bale in. Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Sam, seeing as this stuff takes so much brute force to move and considering a high 'rotational' stress point is going to be where the lateral beams tie into the top of the blade, have you considered gusset plates, diagonal tube sections or ?? to provide some additional resistance to the blade from rolling back under load?  Either that or beam extensions with a 'strongback' that run past the blade and then add gussets or sections down to the blade transition plane from the rear?MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Sam, seeing as this stuff takes so much brute force to move and considering a high 'rotational' stress point is going to be where the lateral beams tie into the top of the blade, have you considered gusset plates, diagonal tube sections or ?? to provide some additional resistance to the blade from rolling back under load?  Either that or beam extensions with a 'strongback' that run past the blade and then add gussets or sections down to the blade transition plane from the rear?
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammHere ya go Sandy   I scrounged up some old picsThe ground varies depending on how close to the feeder you are.  From lots of hay, to hay mixed with God Knows What  And finally a silt sorta stuffA rake will work close in, but won't work further out.Plus to make a rake with teeth close enough, and strudy enough, to pull a heavy straw load would essentially make it into a bladeMoving the feeders is out, because you can see what damage the concentrated cows do the ground.  You'd have damaged circles all over the pasture.  I've seen it on other folks places.  Specially during a bad winter where you have a lot of rain, and you can't move the feeders.Also, bear in mind, the feeders I build are around 800lbs or so.  PITA to move even with a loader.  It's not like just flipping the feeder over the bale, the bale has to be put in the feeder thru a gate.  Or if the gate approach is mired in, you have to come from the side and dump the bale in.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammI thought about it Duane, but looking at the Rhino I currently use, there's no provision for braces.  It's around a 500lb blade rotating around a 24" hub thingy.  Same width 72".Even with a pretty good sized tractor, you have to change your draft when you feel the load build up.  It's an artsy thingI've hit a stump with the tree stacker, same dimension and weight tubing, and same "overhang" , and about stalled the tractor.  At only around 8 or 9000lbs, my small tractors will lose traction before they can rip stuff up at low speed.  I think a shock load at around 4mph would be another thing though.This little dude will run at around about 2mph tops.
Reply:Duane, I think we have two kinds of possible movement here.Possible shear, top drawing, braces to counteract itAnd the rotational stress you talked about, second drawing, top gusset to protect the joint between frame and bar.You could gusset this baby till you can't see the blade anymoreSay you can get about maybe 1000 lbs of crap inside the blade, multiply it by 4, and you're talking around 4000lbs.  One third, or less, of the blade hangs outside the central frame.  Probably around 20 inches.  That overhang might have around 300lbs actual load(not counting the sudden stop as you hit a buried natural gas cross country line ie. the x4 factor).  Remember as you see the stuff pile up, and listen to the motor, you change draft to decrease load.  I may have pushed it too far, but I'm hoping the torsional strength of the tubing will resist a good deal of push back.Also you have around 8 feet of frame to absorb any torsional loads.  The long frame acts as a flexible dealy to a point.  It will deflect to absorb load over it's entire length.We haven't done this in a long time, it's coolIt's skating on the edge, but it's a one operator piece of equipment. Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Almost forgot, actual blade height from bottom of blade to underside of bar is only around 17".  A D-8 it ain't."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersamm. . .That overhang might have around 300lbs actual load(not counting the sudden stop as you hit a buried natural gas cross country line ie. the x4 factor).  Remember as you see the stuff pile up, and listen to the motor, you change draft to decrease load. . . .
Reply:samm my cow experience is limited to three summers as a teenager throwing bales and  jerking **** for a holstein farmer, so i dont have feedlot experience..would paving the area around the feeder work? just push the crap off and make th efeeder accessible..clean the pile up in july when its dry?
Reply:the word in asteriks is ttitttttssss..
Reply:Duane!!!!!!!!Got up at the crack of dawn and started staring at this thing.  You got me worried, and you may be right.I'd be an idiot to ignore it.Time for napkin CAD at the donut shop this morning"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Good luck with it Samm, I'm sure you'll figure it out. I'm just glad very few of the farmers around here are as generally handy and internet savvy as you or I would be out of business.  Looks like a good build I can't wait to see it in action.
Reply:DUANE!!!!!!!Ok, I got your attentionI gotta do this over a couple of posts, so bear with me.I think we're looking at a combination of things.  We have a shear problem, coupled with rotation (the joint wants to become a hinge), and the BIG I (NO, NOT THE BIG O) inertia.Pic one..........The forces that I believe are in play herePic two.........  The simple way I would locally reinforce the joint if I had acces to do it.  A simple addition to the bottom flange which is in tension.  The strap would be 3/8 flat.  I believe you get the biggest bang to the buck by reinforcing the tension side of a member.Now we've reduced the tendancy of the joint hinge, ie open up on the underside.  But now we have to worry about whether the force will just transfer to the entire assembly along it's length and cause it to bend anyway.  To alleviate this, we could also add a strongback to deepen the web and add some more tensile strength too.  But again I have no access, one of the stanchions on the back of the blade is smack dab in the middle of the whole showPics three thru five...............A really well built old Rhino blade I own  I stole this baby at auction way back when for $200.  All the people bidding on it were small acreage owners with small tractors.This baby is essentially a beam with a cutting edge on it.  Excellent resistance to just about every force imagineable.  No deflection in the blade from center to edge, and a huge post to resist shear.  A blade among blades  But for my particular application it's too close coupled.  The heavy tractor has to be in the muck right along with the bladeNow for the BIG I.  This sucker was made to operate at speed and resist just about everything in its path.  It's designed to resist inertia, and hopefully survive when an obstruction brings it to a dead halt.  Absorb all the kinetic energy.  It has to resist not only the load it's pulling, but the effect of any force resisting the force of a fast moving 8 or 10,000lb tractor.  It's an old Category II implement, I believe standards have changed, and it would be sold today for use on even heavier power equipment.But it's overkill for what I'm doing.  I'll be starting from near a dead stop, and pulling forward away from the perimeter of the feeder.  Or I'll be working around the edges trying to scallop the goo while my wheels are on dry ground.  Sort of like whittling.  The key is keeping the driving wheels of the tractor on passable ground.  I won't be charging into the mire at 5mph, and hoping momentum will carry me thru to the other side of the swamp Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:DUANE!!!!!!!!!!!!To do what I think would work would require major surgery.  Too much stuff in the way.It leaves me with your idea about the additional diagonal braces.  It may be the only alternative.Only thing I would possibly change is the location of the braces.I want to locally reinforce a joint, and I feel that the further the braces are from the joint, the less reinforcement I'll get.While placing a reinforcement further out on the beam will help to share the load, and spread it out, I think that it won't do much to reduce the problem at the main connection.I'm thinking the reinforcement should be placed in close proximity to the joint in question, and at an angle as close as possible to paralell to the main frame.  I can locally double my web and flanges this way.  Further out leaves too much flex with little resistance to rotation.I believe the blade, constructed as it is, is a corrugated structure.  The curve of the blade is the corrugation.  It is stiff to a degree due to this.  The 3/16 wall tubing is sufficient to resist a great deal of force too over the 20 inches from main connection to tip of the blade.I still maintain that the long frame from tractor to blade will act as a sponge to absorb a lot of force.  Lot of flex in 8 feet of tubing. Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Secretly I'd like to see just how much the original connection would resist.  LOL"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by denrep If your concerned that an operator hasn't been getting his cardiovascular workout, all you have to do is holdup a chunk of pipe, or ball of wire, while he's digging.  So how 'bout the hitch Samm? What are its limits?You ever seen the scrapers made from a large industrial OTR tire cut in half?Good Luck
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammDUANE!!!!!!!Ok, I got your attention
Reply:"Make my day, extended thingy for Rhino"Dog!!!!!!movie, pizza, and beer break, the Uranus staff will be back shortly"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:YO.....YOU DUDES OVER ON THE "BOOM CANTILEVER THREAD"  I NEED YOUR HELP OVER HERE!!!!!!!!!Y'all are building the Space Shuttle over there, and all's I'm tryin' to do is rake a little manure  (Or, depending on where you're from.......manhoooor)Duane, I can brace the back of the blade to Kingdom Come, but all I'm doing is strengthening the back, while I still have a possible collapse in front of the blade.  The frame is still the same.Extend the Rhino blade.  Ooomph.  Doggone thing weighs booocooo.  Have to build another crane just to lift it at that length from the lift pointI'm committed to the additional angle braces.  Or I should be committedAlso considering removing the strongback on the top of the blade to gain access for some stuff.  It's only there to counteract the welding stresses during the building of the thing, and to add weight.  Quick job with a razor wheel, and I can put the stock back on the shelf for another potential disaster.I keep thinking you guys are pushing me into a heavier duty thingy than I had planned for"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Are we being fooled by the fact that it's a welded joint?  Always distrust in a welded joint.If you look at the pic, you can see that regardless of shifting bracing to the back, you still have the same drawbar/tubing/whatever in front of the blade.  The failure point (I think) would be anywhere ahead of the blade due to the hinge effect.Also a lot of reversible blades are mounted on a turntable kind of thingy.  The blade has to either push or pull.  The additional meat might be for the rotational thing  Either way, it still hangs on the connection between tractor and blade.Edit.........xxxx marks the failure spot regardless of where the braces are.....sorry Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I got a top secret anti rotational design in mind, but at Uranus we keep stuff hidden until it goes onto the marketI'm goin' to bedAnother episode of "As the Blade Turns" tomorrow.And we still haven't even considered whether the eight feet of tubing will collapse just lifting the blade"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:I don't know that this is an issue for what you're doing but it seems as tho the greatest forces would be trying to roll that toothed blade out towards the back. If you hooked those teeth on a curb it would try to pull the bottom out because the rigid attachment is at the top and across that top tube. If you were to hook one corner tooth solid and pull it would try to pull that part of the bladr back and out plus some of the force would be directed at a diagonal line up and inwards towards that joint where the tube from the tractor connects to the cross blade tube. So I'd say yeas there is some relative straight back pull at the end of that cross bar but not a lot comparatively . The only way there would be a lot of stress on that upper outside end is if you hooked it up solid against something. ????????????  Just some wild thoughts here about how the forces applied would act, nothing saying the tool doesn't fit the application.OOops, I see you've been over the rotational thing. Never mind.Last edited by Sandy; 01-20-2010 at 01:36 AM.Reason: finished reading the thread :)Fer cryin' out loud. Go hang the thing in some cow --------------manure and see where it bends or breaks. That'll tell you what needs fixed and braced and balanced and so on.  Then post some pictures of the wreck so we can all laugh at you and tell you what's wrong with it. All kidding aside, this is an interesting thread.
Reply:Well Duane1/4 gussets, 3/8 flat on underside of frame running 11" towards the tractor.If the thing falls off, so be itGUYS..........DON'T THROW AWAY THE AC RODI got the mother of all arc blow on the gussets  On the outside surfaces as well as inside.  A real mess, and the arc was dancing better than I ever could.Gave up on it and switched to AC rod, and trouble gone.The AC doesn't seem to run too well out of position, or that may just be mePIC ONE.............. AAAAARRRRRGH!!!!!!!  Look at this mess!!!!!!!  ^&^$@*  The DC no go easy  AND YOU MIGHT KNOW, IT'S ON THE TOPSIDE OF THE FRAME  I ground down the dingleballs, and flapwheeled it, but it's still a source of annoyance.  I have to look at it for the rest of my lifePIC TWO AND THREE..........................Ahhhhhh, much better.  But it's forever hidden on the underside.  I'll look under there once in a while to make myself feel betterPIC FOUR........... The plate attached to frame to add strength to the tension side of the tubing.Later this evening I'll put up some pics showing horizontal welds in a side by side comparison showing the results I'm getting with AC, and DC.  Pretty noticeable difference. Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/