Hardfacing Rods

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"Arcos Alloy CorpSurfacing filler iron chromium alloyC 0.4Cr 3.5Mn 1Mo 0.5Si 0.6bal FeWelded 55HRCFor hardfacing electrodes:martensite steel to withstand severe abrasion, heavy impact"  I bought 10# of the above rods to re-face the surface of a badly beat-up old anvil that my Grandfather gave me when I was 4 and used it as a pony. It's almost destroyed and was 65 years ago,but I'm going to attempt to bring it back from the dead.Any thoughts about using this stuff for such a project ? You won't hurt my feelings on this since I know almost nothing about the attributes of this electrode from the standpoint of welding it or how it holds up.Severe Abraison & Heavy Impact sounds like the requirements for an anvil face,but that's as far as my understanding of this rod goes. I'm sure a lot of you are much more knowledgable about hardfacing electrodes and maybe even these particular rods.
Reply:this may be the right rod to lay down metal that is abrasion and impact resistant, but who is to say that it will also provide the high rebound desired of an anvil?
Reply:Point taken... Considering the "mushroom" shape of this totally destroyed anvil with the heel broken off and lost before I was born... believe me "rebound" is far from critical....I have no delusions about returning this to a top line anvil to compete with even a 60% rebound. My main goal is only to repair the surface to something close to flat after I cut and fit a new heel to the main body.If it hadn't belonged to my Grandfather I wouldn't bother... At least not so much. Beyond that I got the electrodes for a cheap price and this is a chance to give my welder and myself an exercise in restoring a lost cause back to some level of usefullness.I have no idea how this poor anvil got to the point it has always been in since I was a child. My Dad & Brother both beat on it as a lump of solid mass over the years since my Grandfather died and it's setting at my Sisters unused for 25 years since my Dad died.I just wanted to restore it if at all possible for a keepsake for occasional use around the shop...nothing more or nothing fancy...Rebuilding an anvil is a project that's time consuming and expensive.... This one is just for me ...nothing else. I want to practice doing this just to see if I can do it.
Reply:I have a anvil that is in bad shape I have ask A lot of guys that I know are black smiths they all said to use 7018. I have built up a lot with rods like you have and they worked but they all chiped of on edges bad witch was ok on what I was doing but not good on a anvil.I wouldnot use them and they are hard to grind avil needs to be smoth.
Reply:The 7018 could be used to build up the damage & would be my choice for re-attaching a heel to the main body... I then figured this rod might restore the face back to some level of hardness since the 7018 would probably be far softer than these rods.I didn't want to break the bank fixing a turd and was originally looking for hardfacing mig wire to do this when I ran across this stuff for $3.25 a pound. If it doesn't work out I'll still have this stuff around for other things...Thanks for the thoughts about this...
Reply:Do you have the Arcos number? I have a number of Arcos alloys and have been able to get information about them from the company even though they were probably 40 or 50 year -old numbers. Another point to be sure of is whether the anvil has a gray cast body with an applied steel face, gray iron only or is something else like malleable iron throughout. The broken heel makes me think it is cast iron; cast steel was uncommon in the old days, at least for things like anvils. If it had been malleable or gray and someone had tried to repair surface damage on the heel, it could have reverted to white cast and later broken. Pictures might add a bit more information and if Castweld doesn't see this thread, you might PM him to ask his opinion.BTW, about how large is this anvil and how fast could you get it to run when you were little?I had a favorite rock wall with a 'saddle' on top, it being right next to a mulberry tree so I could sit in my saddle and turn my face red.....I might have been 4 or so.
Reply:I don't see the harm in using the hardsurfacing rod for the finished surface. but i would build it up and shape it with 7018.
Reply:The end of the can printed info............ 1/8  DIAMEND 500 Lot 3E50A  19Near as I can figure it's intended usage was things like plow points and high abraison situations like maybe dozer blades or bucket teeth... With a 55 HRC it's in the range of an anvil face hardness and being high impact it should withstand any blows. As for it's age ? It's way older than 1950 and I've tried to determine it's composition and if it's forged or cast. I'm thinking it's forged because of the sheared off heel portion. It looks to have just broken cleanly from the main body in a chunk like it was a seperate part that was forge welded to the base portion.The face is so distorted I'll probably have to grind around on it to determine if the face was a plate forge welded to the main body....?Weight...Originally maybe between 100-125# I'm still looking for a piece of steel to re-make the heel and re-attach to the body to re-form the original shape as near as possible.I thought of getting a piece of railroad rail and inverting it and cutting the rail top partially off. The base of the rail would just touch in the center and leaving a portion of the top of the rail attached would build up the missing heel portion by letting it hang over the tail and welding it to the main body.The usual issue of having a hollow area under an attached face plate could be avoided this way by running beads starting in the center until the cavity was filled. The face is rounded and the inverted rail portion base is sloped ...this creates a natural V so the center out can be welded.That was my original plan,but most anvils are re-faced by building up the face with some method of welding directly to the face like we're discussing at the moment using a hardfacing rod with or without an underlayment to the anvil body and then grinding the surface down to shape it.I really haven't decided on a path for this yet and I'm still weighing options. This rod was fairly cheap so I grabbed it just in case it would work for this application... I'm getting a crash course in hardfacing electrodes which is a good thing...Learning something new never hurts...
Reply:That chemistry should be plenty safe for what you are doing mudbug.That's prolly the single pass hardness noted on the box, multipass will drop it, and welding above 400F will also drop the hardness some.Looks like you have a fair bit of work to get your "pony" back in shape. Good luckMatt
Reply:It'll be a lot of work any way this goes,but after researching it some I hope to learn something in the process whatever direction this takes...LOL This pdf on BOC electrodes has one rod similar to these in composition... They are listed as 650 while mine are 500 and that may account for the slight difference in composition and specifications. I'm assuming they both are similar otherwise and used for similar applications.... Page 6 of this pdfhttp://www.bocworldofwelding.com.au/...Hardfacing.pdf
Reply:That 650 is getting close to air hard tool steel, the rod you have above is about exactly between Lincore 50 and Lincore 55.What you have is similar to 4140 with the chrome jacked up 2 points... More like oil hard, plenty safe, plenty tough.Matt
Reply:With my limited knowledge of the actual electrodes in question...I took a stab in the dark purchasing them for this use.Sounds like I may have gotten dumb lucky by accident...My instincts are usually fairly good and I figure if it doesn't work for the anvil I shouldn't find it too dificult to use it around farm country for something useful.I was really leaning to the method of face replacement I mentioned above using an inverted rail although I really think shaping a replacement heel and attaching it to the anvil body and then re-facing the entire repaired anvil face with rod build-up would be the more correct restoration procedure. It will be more expensive and more difficult,but will restore the anvil to look like it originally looked.I'm looking forward to this project and I'll be sure to post pictures of the process as it moves along. I still need to find a suitable chunk of metal to make the replacement heel out of...just need to search the scrap piles around here and shape it to fit.Thanks for the help and any other thoughts that anyone might care to add ....It's much appreciated.
Reply:Originally Posted by SomthingoriginalI don't see the harm in using the hardsurfacing rod for the finished surface. but i would build it up and shape it with 7018.
Reply:Stoody 946 AP wire is just over 1500 dollars for a 33 pound spool, adds up quick when building up idler slides on a big excavator----i use about 50 spools of this a year, there are cheaper HF wires out there but I have not found anything that does what I want it to do and still be able to weld it overhead except this Stoody 946 wire, you can also use 100% CO2 with it.--Matt6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:Hello mudbugone, somthingoriginal had a very important comment with regard to doing your shaping/build-up with a "softer" base underlay before finishing with whatever particular hard rod you ended up selecting for the working surface of your anvil refurb. Many of the hardfacing electrodes are not well suited to multi-layer applications and will fracture and fragment if applied in that manner. In other instances a hardfacing layer will essentially float on the item it is applied to and the underlay electrode provides cohesion and prevents the surface application from "falling out". The surface applicatoin may actually display cracks and fissures but remain affixed to the part. Good luck on your very important undertaking and best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:I figured there were some of you that were familiar with rhe procedures involved for using hardfacing electrodes. I've just been waiting I'm not going to be doing this immediately,but I am collecting materials and knowledge to try this repair in the near future as soon as I can get everything lined out and prepaired to accomplish this.I have no intention of jumping blindly into this and just making a mess...I may make a mess,but it won't be from stupidity or lack of preparation. If you don't know how to do something...find out or figure it out....It's always easier to do it once..than twice...LOLThe Stoody wire/electrodes is suggested (by most) to be the correct method for this repair...I just can't deal out that amount of cash for fixing this sorry excuse for an anvil. I'm usually pretty resourceful looking for consumables,but this time I only found these rods. I haven't given up looking quite yet and some other type of hardfacing materials may materialize yet.These rods are probably only good for 2-3 passes and I'm betting the anvil in question is going to require at least some build-up on the edges BEFORE these rods could be used. If anyone has any suggestions of an electrode to build things up as an underlayment before attempting to surface it with the hardfacing electrodes I'm listening and open for suggestions.I don't mind admitting I'm operating in the dark on this and that I'm positive some of you are far more knowledgable. I'd be hardheaded (stupid) to assume with a little reading online I'd know the facts and procedures involved in something this involved;Thanks for all the insight...maybe we'll all learn things.
Reply:Mudbogone, try this sight: www.anvilmag.com/smith/anvilres.htm.  This info should answer your question.  Bob
Reply:Thanks... read that weeks ago and several others as well.... That's the way it's supposed to be done for sure. I can't (won't) afford the Stoody rods to repair this anvil of questionable original quality considering it's sad condition. The considerable expense might be justifiable for a good anvil that's damaged ,but not in this case.I thought someone with far more expertise than myself might be familiar with the electrodes I bought and offer up suggestions on the use of them for this repair.From my research I'm thinking there needs to be a 'buttering' layer of some other electrode composition applied to the anvil first and then the hardfacing layers applied to that finish..?? Much as described in the article you posted.Those Stoody electrodes are VERY expensive for those unfamiliar with them. I gave $33 for 10 pounds of the rods I listed in my first post (NOT Stoody rods)which is a lot more than 6011's....LOL..but far less than other hardfacing electrodes.
Reply:Attached is a link to the New Jersey Blacksmiths assoc.  I got information about anvil rebuilding from them.  It's not just as easy as welding and grinding.  There are some phone numbers on the work shop ad that might help.Danhttp://njba.abana-chapter.com/Anvil Repair Workshop For $120 and some sweat labor you get your beat-up old anvil repaired with freshly welded, ground and polished edges. This is a workshop. Anvil owners are participants, usually meaning you will be assigned a task such as grinding, etc. Anvils missing chunks of the face badly swayed or otherwise abused can also be repaired, but will require more preparation, labor, and money on your part. The workshop will take place at Marshall Bienstock's shop in Howell NJ. Prior registration is required so we can have the proper amount of supplies on hand - please provide the approximate size of your anvil. Pictures would help determine the amount of work required. NJBA has run a similar workshop on several occasion with tremendous results. (Open to members only, but anyone may join NJBA on the day of the event.) The contact persons for this event are:David Macauley, [email protected], 732-206-1568 H or 732-310-1300 C Directions:Marshalls farm is at 663 Casino Drive, HowelI (Monmouth Co.). NJ. which is about 1/4 mile east of Route 9. Casino Dr. is a few miles north of 1-195. and a few miles south of Rte. 33. Either of these routes can be easily reached from the major north-south highways. including the Garden State Parkway. the NJ Turnpike. 1-195. Rt. 18 or Rt. 34. Marshall can be reached at his shop at (732) 780-0871.
Reply:That would be great,but the commute would get expensive..After much surfing on the www I ran across the following link and thought others might be interested...http://www.afrox.co.za/en/images/Sec...b266-27351.pdf
Reply:After killdozer's well timed caution, I took a Google peek at "anvil repair"...You're kidding me! It could be any thing from simple constructional alloy (forged or cast & torch hardened) to the same OR CI with a water hard tool steel top??? From simple to "FrankenAnvil"??? FCS!!! I know Jack Apple-Butter about things "Anvil"... Mudbug, you have to do the best you can to figure out how (and with what) the anvil was made. If it has a W1-(.6 to 1.4 carbon) or W2-(same carbon with.25 Vanadium) top, or if it's constructional steel alloy, your filler is fine.I also found the repair link above with Google, and saw Stoody 2110 and 1105 (or equivelent) used with the caution that with cast iron a nickel butter pass was needed first. It's reasonable, the manganese steel first (goes down soft and work hardens to whup azz), then an air hard (or close) filler for the cap.If it really is cast iron, and the cap is gone, then the Ni-rod would be needed or the base iron manganese rod (hadfield steel) butter layer would just fail.I went ahead and scanned some Stoody stuff with filler cross reference and put the PDF in my Dropbox, included are the Hobart fillers crossed showing chemistry (their version). I also noticed that my published Stoody data then showed 8% alloy where the on-line now shows 5% alloy for the 1105 top layer.The Stoody 1105 and the Hobart Tufanhard 375 both show lower expected hardness than the filler you have, but considering your filler is only .4C and 3.5Cr I think it's only going to get 55Rc by welding on something where it can get alloy pickup and be dead cold. Anyway I'll leave the file up for a while for anyone interested. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/51954238/Stoody%20Hardface.pdfAttached is part of the Stoody cross reference (I suspect it will be hard to read, so I PDFed the stuff, WW can't handle 50MB uploads...).Good luckMatt Attached Images
Reply:As i said i think that what he does to an anvil he is restoring JUST for LOOKSis probably not a big deal in what he is using for rod as long as when somebody hits it it breaks and hits them on the foot is not what is was posting aboutWhat i was posting about was that it was suggested that it was fine to use 7018 as a build up or base ..for hard facing anything your going to useIt is NOT alright and i wanted to point that out before somebody got the wrong idea or post the wrong information out of safety concernsAnd the fact that my grandfather and my father used to preach to me when i was young...It takes just as long to do something right as it does to do it wrong and have to do it again and do it right this timeI have found that to be true so many times As i am sure some of you guy's have when having to fix someone else's welds and repairs and buildsBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old Truck
Reply:LOL... It gets real complicated real quick don't it ? You are one of the few that looked into this and figured out that it's more involved than it seemed at first glance... I'm going to try to determine what the main body composition might be. That will make a great deal of difference on the correct procedure. I've been researching how the old anvils were made and considering I think the heel was forge welded to the main body I'm leaning toward the body being forged iron as well. If this anvil was a name brand it would be far simpler,but I haven't found any markings on the thing yet. I'm glad this isn't a get it done soon project and thankful it's mine instead of someone elses to deal with.I'll update as more info comes available..Last edited by mudbugone; 01-19-2012 at 12:03 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by killdozerd11What i was posting about was that it was suggested that it was fine to use 7018 as a build up or base ..for hard facing anything your going to useIt is NOT alright and i wanted to point that out before somebody got the wrong idea or post the wrong information out of safety concerns
Reply:Not you the poster somthingoriginalStated that he would build it up with 7018 and then hard face itThat is the misinformation i was referring tooI just don't want someone using search to see a hard facing post and read that and do something wrongThat's allAnd Mudbug i wish you luck in this endeavor because i have read the posts and it quite a lot of stuff to absorbBacked my CATMA over your CARMA oops clusmy me  What would SATAN do ?? Miller Trailblazer 302 AirPakMiller Digital Elite  Optrel Welding HatArcair K4000Suitcase 12RC / 12 VSHypertherm PM-45Rage 3 sawRusty old TruckI must admit I was not quite ready for just how involved simply restoring a chunk of iron back to some sort of flat beating surface might be.What I "assumed" would be rather simple has turned into a major research adventure into material composition,consumable use as well as extreme procedures to accomplish that wrong assumption...LOLIf all I wanted was a chunk to beat on I can do that with little effort (or success) As it is I've bit into a personal project that will test my resolve as well as my abilities.. I'm just thankful I'm not running against the clock on this one...Thinking,research,& preparation on this are going to be very involved,but in the long run I'll learn an awful lot. When I first started I thought WOW! this is too complicated to attempt...then I decided it's been done before and there's no reason I shouldn't be able to learn how to do this and push myself to the limits. I doubt I'd even attempt this for someone else,but for myself it'll be a labor of love to restore this pitiful old pony from my childhood while learning a process that few would even attempt... The challenge and learning will be worth the time involved I'm sure.I'm retired so my time is my own and the more I get into this the more I'm facinated by the complexity of what's involved in fixing a tool that at one time was the basis for building all other tools... It's actually a very cool project..Thanks for all the comments... I'm sure this information line will aid others that are looking for information... Don't stop and feel free to add any thinking on this.
Reply:I probably ought to add some info on the Mouse Hole Anvil since I found the background while searching for information.....I thought this old poem was interesting too.. "And yonder stands old Mousehole Forge In dingy honours dres't, Famed in the days of good King George For anvils, England's best." Mouse Hole was an early trademark of the Armitage foundry in England, which went out of business before 1850. They bear a trademark short, stubby horn. Mouse Hole was the first commercial anvil producer, beginning in or near 1650. Most of these anvils were in the 100 to 150 pound range, with most around 120-125 lbs. Mine only had the (M O U S) stamped on the side (at least that's all that's still visible) and as you can see from the additional info below they were manufactured after 1850... Mousehole Forge anvils can be dated from their logos: (These are all cicra - about - dates and the words would be stacked): 1780 - 1795: MOUSEHOLE 1795 - 1820: C&A MOUSEHOLE 1820 - 1835: M&H ARMITAGE MOUSEHOLE 1835 - 1854: HENRY ARMITAGE MOUSEHOLE 1854 - 1875: M&H ARMITAGE MOUSEHOLE FORGE 1878: BROOKS & COOPER MOUSEHOLE FORGE SHEFFIELD WARRANTED (with the outline of a mouse and HOLE for the first time) 1879: M&H ARMITAGE MOUSEHOLE FORGE SHEFFIELD WARRANTED (mouse) HOLE PATENT 1880: M&H ARMITAGE MOUSE HOLE FORGE (mouse) HOLE WARRANTED 1895: M&H ARMITAGE (mouse) HOLE SHEFFIELD 1896: M&H ARMITAGE MOUSEHOLE FORGE SHEFFIELD WARRANTED PATENT (mouse) HOLE 1911: M&H ARMITAGE MOUSEHOLE FORGE SHEFFIELD ENGLAND WARRNANTED (mouse) HOLE PATENT 1927-1933?: OWEN-THOMAS THE OLD FORGE SHEFFIELD ENGLAND Notes: - C&A = Cockshutt & Armitage - M&H = Morgan and Henry - Mousehole Forge is the only known manufacturer to use dots/periods between the weight numbers, such as 1 . 3 . 14. Sometimes all which remains of the logo is the dots. - Weight markings are in the British stone system to where the first represents multiples of 112 (1/20th long ton), the second multiples of 28 and the third remaining pounds. Usually off from scale weight a bit. - Mousehole Forge was one of the last British anvil makers to change from the old style to the modern (more blocky) feet. They did so cicra 1895. - The origins of the name of Mousehole is not certain. The square handling holes in an old anvil are called mouseholes. In England a bend in a river with a deep spot is known as a mousehole and Mousehole Forge was located at such as spot. There is a coastal English town named Mousehole and it was well known as the site of a brief French invasion about the time the forge was started. - Mousehole Forge contined to use water power (heave or tilt hammers) long after other manufactures switched to mechanical hammers. All Mousehole anvils are pretty well 'handmade'. Source: The Mousehole Forge by Richard A. Postman (with John and Julia Hatfield)The main body is Forged Iron and the Horn & Heel were forge welded to the main body and a tool steel face was forge welded to the top...The tool steel face is still attached it's just badly beat up. I'm looking for a suitable piece of steel to attach where the original heel has been broken off (sheared off actually right where it was forge welded on). I'm considering bolting the new heel onto the body as well as welding it to the main body (and then be careful NOT to beat on the heel after the fix.)The anvil has a "ring" to it and will bounce a large steel ball bearing with about a 50-60% rebound...not great but OK. The unpainted square & directly in front of it are semi-flat enough to be usable as an anvil surface... My intention is to attach a new Heel and then hard face the entire face and re-grind things back to something closer to flat. The whole process should be simpler since I found out who made the anvil and what it's made of. I'll patch a couple of bad spots with nickel rod as well as the joint area where the new heel will get welded on ( with 7018 ?) and then the hard facing rod shouldn't pose any issues when layered onto the entire surface over the old tool steel face that remains and the new steel heel I'm going to make to fit it.If anyone has any additional suggestions..Speak your mind..You won't upset me I'm attempting this on the fly with the limited information I've been able to find online which is sparse and nothing related to re-attaching a broken Heel...BTW it weighs about 130# without the heel and actually looks better than I originally thought (that's what happens when your buddy has several anvils that look new but aren't) Attached ImagesLast edited by mudbugone; 02-03-2012 at 09:09 PM.
Reply:Interesting.Yeah, as you have found out, "anvils" can be (and often are/were) made out of all sorts of iron alloys.  Cast iron, cast steel, alloy steels, tool steels, etc, etc, etc.Putting things back together involves more than just 'weld it with some 7018 rod'.  And as mentioned previously by others (don't remember if you noticed or mentioned it as well), a lot of the 'hard' hardfacing fillers may exhibit what is called "surface checking" whereby the hard filler alloy will actually craze/crack/cross-check after it is applied (because the filler is so hard and brittle that it actually will crack itself as it cools from the molten state back to solid and room temperature).  Which is all 'normal' and no real problem for those fillers when used in the 'right' place/application.  But if you were to use such a filler where you want/need/expect to end up with a non-cracked surface for the weld, then you could end up rather upset.Also, check the spec sheet on the filler (aka RTFM) as most of the hardfacing fillers call out 'layer limits' (ie: apply no more than 3 layers thick) because of the resultant alloy and material properties depend on having 'known' admixture results.  Hardfacing is not like just putting on another layer of 7018 to build things up.Large build-up layers may indeed have some 'underlayers' done with 7018 or similar, but then they also may have a certain number of 'special' build-up alloy layers put in underneath the 'final' top hardfacing layers.  And all those different layers of parent material and underlayment and build-up layers and final hardfacing layers all have to work together with one another metallurgically for the application at hand.  Putting on a 'super hard' abrasion-resistant hardfacing layer and putting it into a high-impact usage just mean that the hardfacing layer(s) would probably chip and crack and fracture (wrong material choice for the application).A lot of the 'hard'(abrasion-resistant) hardfacing fillers are listed as non-machinable and/or non-forgable.  Probably because of the high levels of carbides in the weld layers.  Carbides = hard and brittle, the underlying filler matrix holds the carbides in place and the balance of the filler matrix and the amount (and type) of carbides together determine 'hardness' (sometimes a bit difficult to quantify as the carbide 'grains' are really-really hard) and together with the filler matrix chacteristics determine overall  abrasion resistance and impact resistance.Stoody is still around, as part of Thermadyne.  US Customer Care line: 800-426-1888  Canada: 905-827-4515  www.stoody.com  which takes you to www.thermadyne.com/stoody  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Although I can't find any information on the particular rods I have beyond being for abrasion & impact (both good for an anvil) and around a 55HRC as welded and probably no more than 2 layers of buildup..... Considering the sorry state of the anvil face at the moment ...It's doubtful anything I do to it will hurt it any more than the idiots that beat cold iron on the face and broke the heel off.... I'm sorely tempted to fix the face and leave it as a "Bobtail" anvil.... after 60+ years and closer examination.... It's definately NOT like anyone elses anvil...... How about a rear view ? Attached Images
Reply:Here is a totally different approach which I would have suggested if you had started with just the general question of how to fix the anvil.... as compared to having already made some decisions and bought rod... then started the thread...This method will address that bobtail issue at the same time.Just get an appropriate slab of metal for the top... make it the total size of your desired face and grind the old anvil's face flat and the broken end flat.... then just weld around the sides to join the new metal face to the anvil and then come under the unsupported end and fill in bracing there...   Make your hardy and pritchel holes while off the anvil of course....  This guy wrote three books which were combined into one by his wife when he died... One chapter addresses fixing anvils... and shows how to ' low tech' heat treat so the surface/whole anvil ( relationship) so it is in the condition you want and need it to be... ( he did all the pen and ink drawings in the books himself !!!!)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Weygershttps://www.google.com/search?q=wyge...=hp&channel=npAnd in looking at this thread... to get the most people familiar with the problem at hand to stop by and contribute...... it should have been titled " Anvil Repair "..... not ' hard facing rods'....Last edited by GBM; 02-06-2012 at 01:52 PM.Reason: more infoWeldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:I considered adding a slab ,but the general thinking is against such a repair method as it leaves a dead space "under" the replacement slab... (but you're right it would be a more appealing looking repair and easier) just might not be as functional as the hardfacing...  I just ordered the book you suggested... at $15 it's got to be a bargain and less than a few drinks  I really appreciate the heads up on that...Thanks! I'll read up on his thinking along these lines and hope there is more in his book at 300+ pages. This being a welding forum instead of a Blacksmithing forum and considering I was looking for information about not only hardfacing in general ,but about the specific rods I'd bought as well...I assumed asking a general hardfacing rod question would broaden my chance for that information..... I see your point though. I bought these rods,but that was only because they "might" be suitable and they "were" cheap compared to most hardfacing rods.... If I don't use them for the anvil around here in farm country I doubt they'll go to waste...LOL.... I can think of several things right now I could use them for.
Reply:LOL, ' General WHO ' ?If you have the top flat and the piece you apply to the top is flat... how much ' dead space do you think you will have between them... and the other question... is that REALLY going affect the use of the anvil ?   It Might make a difference in the Magic " RING" some people think actually does the bending of the metal.... but other than that... if executed half way properly I think would cause you to look for projects to use that anvil for...     I read that book regularly... the pictures and the '  basic make or repair ' methods are great.... When you see the section on anvils... and he thinks they can be made from all sorts of stuff and styles of design.... I think you will view the heat treating process of the anvil repair as more important than some of the specifics of what is applied to it...In 1987 I took a blacksmithing/farrier course at Mineral Wells, Tx   taught by the famous ' Elmer Seybold '.... His assistant at the time was Bill Epps.... this guy :[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vRt4gCq2Iw[/ame]Last edited by GBM; 02-06-2012 at 06:45 PM.Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Very slick little creatures By "general" I ment every blacksmithing forum online... They ALL frown on that particular "fix" as a total desecration of any anvil....Me..I'm just an old country boy and it seemed the most logical "fix" under the circumstances...This playing with red hot iron pieces is a long thought about interest that I might finally get around to...the anvil just happened to have been mine for a long time though unused for anything except yard art... Meeting a guy that makes actual armor for actual fighting kinda got me itching for getting involved on some level...Thinking of making branding irons & while researching things making knives & Tomahawks has sparked an interest...I picked up a couple hundred 1/2" rods about 4' long and need to use my imagination to use them for something to make a buck or two with.I'll get some "HOT" tools made eventually to do this ,but I ran across this  [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JNwUV_l4SM[/ame]as a shortcut to making Damascus steel (the video is just an example of what that press can accomplish) I was blown away at the ease that press moves hot metal...It works good for forging chainsaw chain into a poor mans Damascus too.I hadn't heard of the book you mentioned and like I said I bought it right then.... I've always been a reader and any visual reference resource is right up my alley. I want a copy of a book on Power Hammers called "Pounding Out the Profits"  and bought this CD last week  http://www.dawnapproaches.com/blacksmithing.html  (They have an interesting CD on Guns too) A great deal of info on Blacksmithing for $10.....I'm not rushing this repair and want to absorb the info in the book you suggested...My thinking originally about this "fix" was exactly like your opinion...so I'm open on my thinking about this for sure.
Reply:Originally Posted by mudbugone......By "general" I ment every blacksmithing forum online... They ALL frown on that particular "fix" as a total desecration of any anvil....Me..I'm just an old country boy and it seemed the most logical "fix" under the circumstances...:
Reply:What is your opinion of this "fix" ???I thought of getting a piece of railroad rail and inverting it and cutting the rail top partially off. The base of the rail would just touch in the center and leaving a portion of the top of the rail attached would build up the missing heel portion by letting it hang over the tail and welding it to the main body.The usual issue of having a hollow area under an attached face plate could be avoided this way by running beads starting in the center until the cavity was filled. The face is rounded and the inverted rail portion base is sloped ...this creates a natural V so the center out can be welded. I haven't decided to do this it was just an idea !
Reply:My opinion is that getting both surfaces really flat and just welding around the outside...following usual grinding procedure to get a good joint... would be much better ....and I do not think you want to underside of a railroad rail for the top of your anvil... unless you checked to see if it could be properly hardened ( after getting your book in and seeing the process ).... and you committed to doing it properly...  There are all sorts of perfectly good types of metal which could be used for that top... with confidence that they could be hardened and used the rest of your lifetime and several generations of your offspring...   The only homemade railroad anvils I have seen used the top surface for the top surface... unless they were going to have another plate added to the top of them as with the original suggestion...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Originally Posted by mudbugone.......The usual issue of having a hollow area under an attached face plate could be avoided this way by running beads starting in the center until the cavity was filled.
Reply:NONE !!!    But then I have no idea of anvil correctness or that's exactly how I would have "fixed" it if I hadn't gotten online and "asked" how to fix it...   Your thinking about "how to" pretty much coincides with my original plan "before" getting resoundly "bitch slapped" several times for even considering such a "fix". BTW...This photo started me thinking about the inverted rail fix... http://www.knifeforums.com/uploads/1...lroadAnvil.jpg
Reply:I am so sorry you got ' bitch slapped' ....that is really painful. There ARE rules of ' anvil correctness' .....but they are short and sweet. One..... own as heavy an anvil as you can afford or can steal and/or drag into your work area. Two,etc.....the top surface needs to be hard, the little table next to it softer, and the horn of a shape which coincides with what you want to bend.   It is NOT correct that the top corners of both sides of the hardened top need to have a crisp ( good looking ) edge....to the contrary... you need some rounding over on one side for bending things you do not want to ' cut' with a sharp edge....but which need a sharper bend than your horn provides.   Your anvil needs to be oriented in relation to your fire where it suits you...and at the correct height... determined by your general height and method of operation.  I am all for tradition when it comes to these things... I had a Black Locust stump under my anvil.But it stops at that point which interferes with actually being able to beat on hot metal.... You really do not know for sure on most of those ' rules' how many of those old timers are just repeating what their mentor told them... or made it up just to see how many ' bitch slappings' you would endure before you fought back..... LOLWeldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:I am an expert on Railroad Rails.  I was a brakeman on the KATY railroad out of Smithville, Texas in 1975.The latter is true, the former is not.   LOLWeldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Well I obviously have the "rounded corners" down pat on my slug of beating iron... I have all sorts of things to beat on and have been half-heartedly looking for a "good" anvil and some other "toys" to get this together eventually... Any substantial piece of good steel makes an anvil and now that I'm actively looking for something I'm pretty sure I'll find it...I usually do. This old anvil is just an old friend that reminds me of a Grandfather that bought me a tricycle at 2 or 3 and gave me $5 for my 5th B-day (substantial sum in 1954) I need to wander around a friends 5 acres in the woods that was an old junkyard and is still loaded with scrap... might find just what I need there...
Reply:I am sure that book will arrive soon... when you see some of the irregular ' anvils' in there it may inspire you to keep that one for memories sake in the condition it is.....and build up something else to work with.I would be interested in knowing just exactly what kind of abuse they were handing out to cause that heel to break off....Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:There are rumors around that the Yankee army during the War of Aggression tried to destroy every anvil they found in the South by breaking the horn or heel or both off any anvil they ran across....  Some claim it's just a rumor and others claim a fact... Sounds reasonable that they would try to cripple any attempt at rebuilding any ability to continue the fight...Unlike today... then an anvil was a "must have" item to repair everything people used so destroying that piece of equipment would have been a smart move..... and probably true... That would be the ONLY method of destruction for a chunk of shaped iron...short of hauling it off. Most anvils during that period had the horns & heels forge welded to the main body... breaking one wasn't impossible ...just difficult I'm sure. I've seen several snapped like mine as well as a couple missing the horns... Mine is still usable for basic 19th Century use at least most uses.Last edited by mudbugone; 02-06-2012 at 10:43 PM.
Reply:On July Forth and other special occasions ... people who were easily entertained... used to put black powder between two anvils and light the fuse.... sending one very high....and if it came straight back down could hit the base anvil and incur serious damage....  " War of Aggression"..... LOL   I too have a relative (Great Great Grandfather  Levi Sanders) who fought on the wrong side ( lets be honest ) of that war...and started out in Alabama also....  I have before me right now his discharge paper signed by Brig General L.S.Ross.http://books.google.com/books?id=vVo...%20war&f=falsehttp://home.earthlink.net/~garybsand...45-1903%29.pdfhttp://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~txvzcgrg/grgPO7.htmHis son was also a blacksmith...Last edited by GBM; 02-06-2012 at 10:35 PM.Reason: not enough Greats..Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Now I'm going to skew your assumptions..... My Great Grandfather fought for the North...LOL.. Now that fact wouldn't have held water (or been known) with/by the troops invading the South if they stumbled across his farm .On the other side of the Family Tree... my other Great Grandfather was a full blood Choctaw Indian Even today if I buy something it's off the wall one of a kind and no parts available  but it sure makes life grand...LOLI had to back track on the timeline of the family tree some.... old GGF had moved to this area before the Civil War as noted in the History of Athens,Louisiana. I know the house he built is still standing and I assumed it was after the Civil War (which it probably was) but the records indicate he was already living here at the outbreak of the war... The anvil probably still came from Alabama...when he moved West... It's amazing the number of people that pulled up stakes in Alabama and migrated West around this time line...http://www.athenslouisiana.com/history.html  ( I'm a Cardwell)Last edited by mudbugone; 02-06-2012 at 10:52 PM.
Reply:That blacksmith son of Levi Sanders who lived in Ben Wheeler married a Comanche ( Great Grandmother Sanders ).I am glad your relative was smarter than mine.   GTT was famous abbreviation back then.. Gone To Texas...Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:Don't know about smarter--- The Civil war was a huge waste of resources and people.... I lived in Maryland for 25 years (which was Southern ?) and when you visit battlefields and grasp the enormity of the fighting that transpired it's pretty shocking... The South was destroyed... a way of life unto itself was totally decimated.... When people think of the Civil War pictures of Gone with the Wind ... Plantations & slaves are the visions projected... The truth was most Southerners were NOT Plantation or Slave owners...like today MOST were just people living... True the Slave owners lost most they had acquired, but the little people were the real loosers...The Rich kept most of their wealth and started over..the regular folks lost everything. Those in power usually get their way...as the American Indians... The Rich in the North were more interested in destroying the wealthy Southerners because they had access to their labor force and resources...Greed... Not Slaves was the reason for the war...The Northern slaves weren't freed until AFTER the war & Southern Slaves were freed to disrupt the Souths ability to wage war... Northerners for the most part couldn't have cared less about slavery... Except for the left wing factions (Politically Correct is the modern term)  Greed destroyed almost an entire country ...Both North & South !  I've heard about Slave owners mistreating their slaves all my life... NOT TRUE... (except in some instances,but no more than today)  Back then a Plantation owner would not damage a $2500 slave for the most part without good reason...trouble makers were a different story. Today they are in prison back then they were whipped & in chains...same exact personalities...just a different mindset of dealing with them. It pretty much didn't matter if they were Black or White in those days...Sharecroppers were barely above slaves back then on the ladder and slaves were actually worth more to the rich...than Poor Whites... History has many facets...when the layers are pulled apart... I actually see little has changed in a 150 years if you examine the reality of todays world...
Reply:One of my great grandfathers owned 300 slaves in Georgia and had a huge plantation. He maintained this even after the war and the family donated the land to the State years later. Now 40 years after that one of his grandsons (my grandfather) was a sharecropper who couldn't even feed his family had to move from North AL. to the MS Delta to find work. The war was not just about slavery it was also about the damn Yankees trying to impose their will on the States.  We are seeing the same attitude again towards the States but it is not just the Southern states getting upset now its just the conservative ones.  Slavery was wrong but we still have a hand in slavery as Americans today they just happen not to be black.  Rich business people will exploit free/cheap labor no matter what.  Now the ultimate vein  of cheap labor has been tapped (CHINA) and that labor pool will last forever.  It has been a dream of business people for at least 100 years!  Billions of people under complete control made to work for cheap!  This is why capitalism loves communism..it's true!
Reply:I think the last two posts belonged in the OFF TOPIC section more than in this anvil  thread.Weldandpower Lincoln 225 AC,DC with Briggs 16hp gas engine.WW2 era Miller TIG.
Reply:I can live with the natural progression of conversation...It's that way face to face and shouldn't be any different online... Besides I started this as a conversation about hardfacing...which went to anvils and then to history and ancestors... just the way it is...