Miller Synchrowave 180SD or Thermal Arc 185 - which one?

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ok. I'm shopping for a new welder and could use some help from some experienced TIG welders in picking between these two.Say you're being locked in the shop and can either have a Miller 180SD with an external pulser control or a Thermal Arc 185. Which one do you choose and why? Does your decision change if the Miller package costs 20% less ?You will be doing mostly aluminum welding, with the balance being stainless.Thanks in advance for the help....
Reply:20% does it for me every time. And the Miller is a great machine as well.Miller Thunderbolt 225Millermatic 130 XPLincoln HD 100 Forney C-5bt Arc welderPlasma Cutter Gianteach Cut40ACent Machinery Bandsaw Cent Machinery 16Speed Drill PressChicago Electric 130amp tig/90 ArcHobart 190 Mig spoolgun ready
Reply:Not to mention its easier to get parts for the Miller if in a serious time constraint.
Reply:I would go with the TA.  I was trying to make the same decision and wound up with an HTP Invertig 201.  The difference in price was significant, but my power constraints in the garage made it the best choice for me.  I can run 200 amps of welding out of the dryer outlet and have yet to trip a breaker.  For the 180 SD you will probably need a 100 amp service just to saturate the transformer without tripping the breaker occasionally.  The 200 hz output on AC is also a nice feature.  I just started welding and am self taught and have become pretty confident when welding aluminum.  I tried out the difference between 60hz and 200hz and the arc is much more focused and easier to point at 200hz.  I also happen to be a renter and didn't want to make any modifications to the house.  Parts can be an issue as well, but as a hobby welder that should not ever be a really big deal to me.  Over the life of the equipment, inverters will pay for themselves on energy efficiency alone if they are used in a production environment. Just my 2 cents,Rene
Reply:100 amps?!?Not quite, it would run just fine on a 50 amp circuit.If I didn't need to be portable I'd take the Miller.Miller EconotigCutmaster 38Yes ma'am, that IS a screwdriver in my pocket!
Reply:I would keep looking for a 200 amp welder, Miller, Lincoln or Hobart in no particular order. I have a, Miller Syncrowave 200 and a 200 ampere machine will give you a bit more power for aluminum. IMy machine is connnected toi a 70 amp line wired with  6 ga stranded wire and I've yet to have any trouble pulling full power without tripping a breaker. If you are lmited to the machines you mentioned, then it's a tossup even without considering the 20%. I go for the machine, mnot necessarily the price. You'll be living with ti for a long, long time. My 2 cents.
Reply:Well now, power supply might be a factor then. I have a 40 AMP circuit in the garage fed with 8 gauge solid wire.I understand I might not be able to run this machine right to 180 or 200 AMPs but will I be able to use it ?I really can't see the need to weld Aluminum or stainless thicker than 3/16".The Thermal Arc is brand new. The Miller about a year old with light use and is about 30% cheaper.
Reply:I looked it up in the manual and the 180 SD recommended fuse or breaker size is 60 amps time delay or 80 amps regular.  It requires 8 gauge minimum conductors and runs at 54 amps at rated output.  This is what kept me from going that route.  I have a friend that has his 180 SD hooked up to a 100 amp service that he installed for the welder and I assumed that he went with Miller's recomendations.  It really isn't a big deal to install the service most of the time, but was more of a hassle than I wanted.  I forgot to metion that the size of the machines may also be an issue.  The inverters are pretty small and light, especially when compared to transformer based machines.  I got the HTP 201 because it compared well with the Dynasty 200 and was a lot less.  Otherwise, I may have waited a while longer and gotten the Dynasty.  My vote is for the TA between the two that you are looking at.Rene
Reply:Wow - so I take it I'm going to have a problem running the Miller on a 40AMP circuit ?
Reply:As I'm new to TIG welding, I'm not really sure how much current I'm going to require to weld 1/8" or 3/16" aluminum plate, should the need arise.I reviewed the Miller machine and they spec 54 AMPs input power for 150AMP welding power. If all my welding needs to be done at lower power levels, like 70-100AMPs, would my existing 40AMP electrical hookup do the job?I realize the Thermal Arc is probably the better machine, but I'm still hot on the Miller because I have been offered further discounts on it.
Reply:Here's my  2 cents worth . I used to own a new Miller 180SD . I just replaced it with a newMiller 200 Syncro Wave . So , I am reasonably familiar with these machines . With either of these transformer machines , welding 3/16 aluminum , you will need a 50 amp circuit to get close to the maximum output these machines can offer . But , IMO , that's almost a secondary issue .  These Millers are nice machines , and I like them a lot , but , for aluminum , I think that a good inverter is significantly better . It's not about maximum power output , but rather about setup flexibility . The inverters offer , a much more adjustable pulse capability , a wilder AC balance adjustment and an adjustable frequency capability .  For aluminum , this stuff is REALLY nice to have . On top of that , the inverters require a lot less input power . So , if I were welding mainly steel , I might feel differently , but for aluminum , the inverters can't be beat . So , why did I buy a Miller 200 ?No TA dealer ( zero support ) even remotely close to my area . I would have LOVED to go with a Dynasty 200 DX but simply couldn't afford it .
Reply:Tigster (and everyone) thank you for your help and input.I am in Canada and Thermal Arc doesn't even sell their TIGs up here, so that's the epitomy of "no support" I guess. Were I to buy one I'd have to ship it here from the USA.The 180SD I'm looking at does have the Miller external pulse control. I'm not sure how good it is compared to the "newer" machines though. Also, I am pretty sure the 180SD has adjustable frequency. Doesn't it?I guess I need to research a bit and see if a 25 foot run of 8 gauge solid wire will support a 50 AMP circuit. If so, I can simply up my breaker.Last edited by turboguy; 07-22-2008 at 05:28 PM.
Reply:You could just replace the breaker. Takes all of 5 minutes to do.I have a 180SD running 6 gauge wire 50' from a 60 amp breaker.Miller Syncrowave 180SDMillermatic 175
Reply:Nope , the Miller 180SD as well as all of the Miller transformer based Tig power supplies ,have a fixed 60hz output frequency . The inverters are fully adjustable up well past 250hz .This is VERY significant when welding aluminum on AC . Although you "could" add an additional pulse module to a 180SD , I would seriously question the value in doing that . The cost would put it well over that of a brand new Syncrowave 200 that has pulse built in at no charge . Now , keep in mind that all pulse capabilities are not created equal . The SW200 will pulse up to 20pps whereas the inverters will go MUCH higher . Some might question the usefullness of this, but , the inverters WILL do it . Like I had said before though , the inverters will give you control over slopes , peak and background amps as well as a much wider AC balance . The transformer machines will only go to 68% EN where the inverters will go to 90% . This stuff DOES make a big difference when doing aluminum . The Syncrowaves do not give you this ability unless you pay for the additional module on the 250DX or it comes as standard on the 350 SW ( no better AC balance though ) . But , we are in a COMPLETELY different price range here .I am in Canada too , so getting a TA product is difficult to say the least .Personally , if I had to choose between a "discounted" 180SD or a new SW200 , I would willingly pay the extra to get the SW200 . I found it to be a MUCH better machine and well worth the added $$$ .
Reply:Thank you for clarifying the frequency issue. I just assumed HF meant a variable frequency, but I guess it's just a feature used during arc "starting".The gently used 180SD I'm looking at already has the pulser included. We're talking in the range of $1200-1500 for everything so it could be as much as 50% cheaper than the Thermal Arc or a new SW 200.Of course it remains to be seen whether I can run it on the 40AMP breaker/8 gauge wiring I have to my garage right now.I do understand that the T/A is the better Aluminum welder, but for someone just learning to TIG are these features that will be used? Or will they rely on having years experience to "fine-tune" the welder's setup?Last edited by turboguy; 07-22-2008 at 07:01 PM.
Reply:Yes , you could run the 180SD on a 40 amp circuit , but , you will not be able to get the maximum power out of the machine that it is capable of . That , could be quite frustrating when doing aluminum when you need all the power that you can get . But , let's face it , the wiring can be an easy fix for down the road .Are these advanced inverter features only for advanced welders ? Not really . I am new toTig myself , and I have already seen times where I would have loved to have had them .Don't get me wrong . I love the SW200 . I think that it is a terrific machine that is worth every penny . But , I am really getting into doing aluminum now ( it's probably 80%+ of what I am welding right now ) , and although my SW200 is only 3 months old , I am considering selling it to go to a Dynasty 200DX .  What part of Canada are you in Turboguy ?
Reply:http://www.millerwelds.com/diversionpc/Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Hmmm...anyone have pricing on that Diversion 165? I wonder when it will be hitting the street.
Reply:Originally Posted by turboguyHmmm...anyone have pricing on that Diversion 165? I wonder when it will be hitting the street.
Reply:Yeah, I found a forum thread elsewhere where they listed $1500 retail with $1275 "sale prices" on it. The foot pedal is a $150 option.Man, if I saw a used T/A 185 in good condition for $1300 I'd jump on that in a second.
Reply:I can't speak for the miller because I have never used one.  I have the TA-185.  It will run on your 40 amp circuit no sweat at full tilt.  MY unit puts out 199 amps on DC tig.  I have checked it a few times and it always comes out just under or at 200 amps.I have not blown a 40 amp breaker.  I think it would run on a 30.  It runs off my Ranger 250 just fine. (9,000 watts)The adjustability is the balls on AC tig.  It runs out of power welding 1/4" aluminum.  It will do it, but that is ALL.  I rarely use pulse on AC or DC tig, but I do change the AC frequency and wave balance (cleaning)  I find 25% to 40% is what I use most for cleaning.  This machine has delivered more than promised since the day I bought it.  I have never had the over temp light come on.  I use it a lot for AC and DC tig,  Rarely for stick.  Yesterday I finally did weld a couple of coke cans with it too.No affilation, yadda yadda yadda.  Just a satisfied owner.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.