Eutectic Cast Iron welding rod info?

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I bought some-- Eutectic 15 Cast Iron rod-- on ebay...Thinking it was cast iron from the description,but it seems to be some sort of alloy rod(limber) for "cast iron" not cast iron itself, like I thought it was. I'm sure it might be usefull for some applications,but I wanted to practice repairing CI exhaust manifolds and this is a low heat alloy,which probably wouldn't stand the exhaust temps(but maybe I'm wrong) .Any information from that scant description or perhaps a link to the manufacturers specifications & applications would be appreciated.
Reply:When welding cast iron, the filler metal is usually an alloy of mostly (90+ percent)nickel and other stuff. Lots of people use Ni99 filler others use NiCu7 and there are others.I am not familiar with what you have, what alloy is it?Yup
Reply:Don't have a clue.... 3/4# loose rods...... I thought it was solid CI rod like those used with a Henrob torch to weld CI. I was given a Henrob torch a few weeks ago and the film of the CI manifold repair interested me the most. I live in farm country & tractors and misc. motorized equipment always seems to be cracking manifolds. I've had others "attempt" to fix mine in the past with sorry results. At the time I didn't think their methods were correct,but after doing research I'm positive they were shine-in' me on about knowing what they were doing. Once you are aware of correct methods of doing anything it becomes really hard to swallow BS about repairs to your stuff... $150 hard to swallow for the last tractor manifold I had to replace when the "do-fus" layed a huge Ni bead on a cold manifold with added melted holes in it. I really believe that old saying..."If you want it done right...Do it yourself"  Now more than ever.I think this alloy rod would be fine to repair some CI applications..perhaps any that might require machining afterwards...it seems like a soft alloy(like pewter almost) with  a galvanized like coating on the rods. I hope the seller can/will give more in depth info on it's qualities/usage.I really didn't expect to have trouble finding info on it....I usually just look it up and bingo...there it is,but like I say...It wasn't what I thought it was. Thanks,Dave
Reply:Originally Posted by BurnitWhen welding cast iron, the filler metal is usually an alloy of mostly (90+ percent)nickel and other stuff. Lots of people use Ni99 filler others use NiCu7 and there are others.I am not familiar with what you have, what alloy is it?
Reply:Makoman,I respectfully beg to differ, Lincoln's NI99 rods are in fact welding rods, and do produce fusion with the base metal.  We have large cast iron tooling plates that often get overtightened, and crack through 2" thick.  We bevel out the crack from both sides, leaving about a 3/32 web, break out the buzzbox, and go to town.  Preheating is not necessary.  I understand the OA process has been around a lot longer than the electric arc, but it doesn't negate the ability to produce a weld, not a brazement, with the NI99 rods.  FYI, when we need to do a quick TIG weld, we knock the flux off the rods, give them a quick lick with some sandpaper, and they work fine for that, too.  It's the one rod I always make sure I have at least one pound of in my toolbox.Best regards, KbnitI r 2 a perfessional
Reply:Originally Posted by kbnitMakoman,I respectfully beg to differ, Lincoln's NI99 rods are in fact welding rods, and do produce fusion with the base metal.  We have large cast iron tooling plates that often get overtightened, and crack through 2" thick.  We bevel out the crack from both sides, leaving about a 3/32 web, break out the buzzbox, and go to town.  Preheating is not necessary.  I understand the OA process has been around a lot longer than the electric arc, but it doesn't negate the ability to produce a weld, not a brazement, with the NI99 rods.  FYI, when we need to do a quick TIG weld, we knock the flux off the rods, give them a quick lick with some sandpaper, and they work fine for that, too.  It's the one rod I always make sure I have at least one pound of in my toolbox.Best regards, Kbnit
Reply:If you melt the 'parent' materials, it's a weld.If your filler metal melts above 840F but you don't melt the parent metal, it is brazing.If your filler metal below 840F and you don't melt the parent metal, it is soldering.Depending on the specific filler(s) and parent material(s), you could solder or braze or weld the same/similar materials.So a lot depends on exactly how you get all the different metals to dance together.Arc welding cast iron using a nickel rod is welding.  The arc is hot enough to melt the parent materials (cast iron) and also deposit molten nickel alloy.  The molten mix then cools and solidifies.If you use a heat source to get the cast iron hot enough hot melt the nickel but not melt the cast iron, then you would be brazing.  (temperature above 840F but not melting the parent materials)etc, etcYup, taking some aluminum with a higher melting point and some filler with a lower melting point (but above 840F), and carefully heating things so the filler melts but the parent aluminum doesn't and you are brazing the aluminum together.  Get things hotter and melt the filler -and- the parent aluminum, and you are welding.As to the OP mudbugone, product names don't always tell the whole story by themselves.  A data sheet, or the AWS classification, will tell you more.  A data sheet and a property sheet and a usage/parameter sheet tells more.I have no idea what the particular rods you have are.  The best laid schemes ... Gang oft agley ...
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseAs to the OP mudbugone, product names don't always tell the whole story by themselves.  A data sheet, or the AWS classification, will tell you more.  A data sheet and a property sheet and a usage/parameter sheet tells more.I have no idea what the particular rods you have are.
Reply:Originally Posted by MoonRiseIf you melt the 'parent' materials, it's a weld.If your filler metal melts above 840F but you don't melt the parent metal, it is brazing.If your filler metal below 840F and you don't melt the parent metal, it is soldering.Depending on the specific filler(s) and parent material(s), you could solder or braze or weld the same/similar materials.So a lot depends on exactly how you get all the different metals to dance together.Arc welding cast iron using a nickel rod is welding.  The arc is hot enough to melt the parent materials (cast iron) and also deposit molten nickel alloy.  The molten mix then cools and solidifies.If you use a heat source to get the cast iron hot enough hot melt the nickel but not melt the cast iron, then you would be brazing.  (temperature above 840F but not melting the parent materials)etc, etcYup, taking some aluminum with a higher melting point and some filler with a lower melting point (but above 840F), and carefully heating things so the filler melts but the parent aluminum doesn't and you are brazing the aluminum together.  Get things hotter and melt the filler -and- the parent aluminum, and you are welding.As to the OP mudbugone, product names don't always tell the whole story by themselves.  A data sheet, or the AWS classification, will tell you more.  A data sheet and a property sheet and a usage/parameter sheet tells more.I have no idea what the particular rods you have are.
Reply:As I understand things, when the nickel rod's arc melts some of the cast iron, the carbon goes into solution in the high-nickel alloy but again precipitates as the alloy cools. This decreases the shrinkage so that fewer stresses are set up, and the alloy is also more malleable so will deform somewhat to relieve those that are.As such, I would agree that this is a true weld, not brazing.  My opinion is based on reading books and catalogs, not AWS definitions or specs., and as I see it, it's really a matter of semantics here. Nobody is arguing basic facts.I was just looking through the current Technical Data Book for Castolin Eutectic and don't find any rod called #15. It does show a #157 rod which has a high tin content and some silver and melts at 430*F (both solidus and liquidus). Its shear strength is 15K psi. It is "suitable for stainless steel assemblies, brass and bronze components, nickel alloys and most carbon steels when used with Eutectic flux #157. "Their #141 is for fusion welding cast iron as mentioned by Makoman 1860 above.
Reply:I've had the best luck repairing cracked exhaust manifolds by brazing them with O/A and never had one bust. I have repaired a great many that others had tried to repair using stick electrodes. Don't count out the brazing process strength wise for cast iron repairs. I have used brazing alloys that had 110,000 psi tensile strength. It is used frequently in the oilfield for repairing busted and cracked bearing and gearbox housings. I have used it on castings so big I had to use a #12 Victor rosebud to get it hot enough and keep it there for brazing. I've brazed broken off flange corners on gearboxes up to 650s (they attach using the flange) A 650 means it generates 650 tons per foot of torque that's 1,300,000 ft/lbs of torque. Healthy loading by anyones standards. My experience has been that about 90% of a good cast iron repair is proper preparation. Without that it doesn't matter what process you use it won't be a sound repair. It isn't such a problem on modern castings but the older the casting is the more difficult they can be to be repaired. Some of them can't be repaired. They just will not take metal.I didn't find anything at Castolin Eutectic's website concerning anything called 15. There is a 16 and an 18 brazing alloy.The only actual cast iron filler I have ever used was for tig. I do not know what it was or the composition. I was handed one by my boss and told to do it. It looked and felt like gray cast iron. It formed a puddle very similar to mild steel and looked very similar to a tig weld on mild steel when finished and was readily machineable. It was a cracked out bolt boss on a pump housing that had to be drilled, tapped and resurfaced for a gasket seal when I was done. We worked with a lot of stuff that wasn't the norm for the area in that shop such as Monel, Inconel, Titanium, and lot's of cast iron. Great place to work and very interesting as long as you didn't mind starving.I use Allstate's Corecast 8600 gas shielded flux core wire for joining cast iron to steel as well as repairing antique (100+ years) iron castings. The .045 needs about 200 amps to burn and is strictly spray transfer. It was over 40 bucks a pound last January and I have no idea how high it is now. The smallest spool I have found is 10lbs so there is no cheap way of using it, lol. I've never tried it on exhaust manifolds, but brazing is so much cheaper and I know how well it works. My business partners brother (industrial machinist) has been using it for 20 years for building up crankshafts for industrial engines and natural gas compressor shafts. I have never seen a filler for the actual welding of cast iron using O/A.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.
Reply:I should have known if I bought it..it'd be unusual and hard to ID. Here's the listing which may help somewhat and may give a better idea of the material... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...M:XRTQ:US:1123Thanks to everyone for the input.
Reply:I will post pics tomorrow, but I just welded up a bunch of cracks in a cast iron manifold using NI99. I definitely melted the base metal- I ran 1" at a time, waiting until it was cool to the touch before welding another 1". Did not try to crack when cooling AT ALL. I'm super happy with the results!!!!I'd braze a manifold for a normally aspirated engine but this is a turbo manifold so I was worried about the temps.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jolly RogerI've had the best luck repairing cracked exhaust manifolds by brazing them with O/A and never had one bust. I have repaired a great many that others had tried to repair using stick electrodes. Don't count out the brazing process strength wise for cast iron repairs. I have used brazing alloys that had 110,000 psi tensile strength. It is used frequently in the oilfield for repairing busted and cracked bearing and gearbox housings. I have used it on castings so big I had to use a #12 Victor rosebud to get it hot enough and keep it there for brazing. I've brazed broken off flange corners on gearboxes up to 650s (they attach using the flange) A 650 means it generates 650 tons per foot of torque that's 1,300,000 ft/lbs of torque. Healthy loading by anyones standards. My experience has been that about 90% of a good cast iron repair is proper preparation. Without that it doesn't matter what process you use it won't be a sound repair. It isn't such a problem on modern castings but the older the casting is the more difficult they can be to be repaired. Some of them can't be repaired. They just will not take metal.I didn't find anything at Castolin Eutectic's website concerning anything called 15. There is a 16 and an 18 brazing alloy.The only actual cast iron filler I have ever used was for tig. I do not know what it was or the composition. I was handed one by my boss and told to do it. It looked and felt like gray cast iron. It formed a puddle very similar to mild steel and looked very similar to a tig weld on mild steel when finished and was readily machineable. It was a cracked out bolt boss on a pump housing that had to be drilled, tapped and resurfaced for a gasket seal when I was done. We worked with a lot of stuff that wasn't the norm for the area in that shop such as Monel, Inconel, Titanium, and lot's of cast iron. Great place to work and very interesting as long as you didn't mind starving.I use Allstate's Corecast 8600 gas shielded flux core wire for joining cast iron to steel as well as repairing antique (100+ years) iron castings. The .045 needs about 200 amps to burn and is strictly spray transfer. It was over 40 bucks a pound last January and I have no idea how high it is now. The smallest spool I have found is 10lbs so there is no cheap way of using it, lol. I've never tried it on exhaust manifolds, but brazing is so much cheaper and I know how well it works. My business partners brother (industrial machinist) has been using it for 20 years for building up crankshafts for industrial engines and natural gas compressor shafts. I have never seen a filler for the actual welding of cast iron using O/A.
Reply:I used pure cast iron rods with a red flux you dip em into and OA.  It works, but I preheat the whole thing first.  When using brazing rod, I have to be sure NOT to melt the cast (base metal) or it won't stick.DavidReal world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by David RI used pure cast iron rods with a red flux you dip em into and OA. David
Reply:Thanks makoman. I am going to make a note of those and put them in my book. When it comes to cast iron you can never have enough alternatives. That's why I use brazing on CI exhaust manifolds. Every one of the ones I have repaired where nickel based electrodes were used failed because it cracked out. I think the corecast might actually work well for it, but as I said it's pretty expensive to play around with and I already know brazing works well at least for me.The difference between art and craft is the quality of the workmanship. I am an artist.