My first TIG project.

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8 Gallon fuel cell for my buddies race car. Just tack welded it today, I was dying from the heat so I needed to stop.I'm using a Diversion 165, I started using the foot pedal but it bit the dust with in an hour, so I used the hand control on the torch which seemed to work out a little better. Attached ImagesLast edited by speedfreak87; 06-05-2010 at 06:40 PM.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:You WILL be putting foam in that right?What kind of racin'?...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterYou WILL be putting foam in that right?What kind of racin'?...zap!
Reply:ah i love seeing mustangs racing.  zapsters car is wicked lookin,and so is this one. im eventually gonna build my 93 for road course
Reply:It's not my car...I helped build it but my friend Louie owns it..Built in late 79...Has not been out of the trailer in YEARS!!...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:I have an 81 coupe that should be running by the end of summer.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Nice!Fuel makes me paranoid, so I never really poke around with fuel related things - what's the foam for?
Reply:Originally Posted by FormulaXFDNice!Fuel makes me paranoid, so I never really poke around with fuel related things - what's the foam for?
Reply:Originally Posted by speedfreak87Foam goes in the tank and keep the fuel from sloshing around.
Reply:More progress.. got the sump formed, and started welding it together. Attached Imageswww.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:The welds look higher then they are..But they are raised a little.. but they are good and strong, so there shouldn't be any leaks.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Nice car.Working on cars and bikes is my hobby, learning to weld the pieces together is my quest.
Reply:How are you going to test for leaks when done?...zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Originally Posted by zapsterHow are you going to test for leaks when done?...zap!
Reply:Keep in mind fuel will find holes that water won't so add a little Dawn dish soap to reduce the surface tension of the water.  And be careful how much pressure you apply or you'll wind up with a balloon instead of a fuel cell and if you're luck it won't rupture.The safest method is to use a water column to develop your test pressure.  A 12' column of water equals just over 5psi (1psi per 2.31') and the column can simply be a rubber hose from a funnel to a tank fitting.MM200 w/Spoolmatic 1Syncrowave 180SDBobcat 225G Plus - LP/NGMUTT Suitcase WirefeederWC-1S/Spoolmatic 1HF-251D-1PakMaster 100XL '68 Red Face Code #6633 projectStar Jet 21-110Save Second Base!
Reply:Originally Posted by duaneb55Keep in mind fuel will find holes that water won't so add a little Dawn dish soap to reduce the surface tension of the water.  And be careful how much pressure you apply or you'll wind up with a balloon instead of a fuel cell and if you're luck it won't rupture.The safest method is to use a water column to develop your test pressure.  A 12' column of water equals just over 5psi (1psi per 2.31') and the column can simply be a rubber hose from a funnel to a tank fitting.
Reply:what about using dollar store rubbing alcohol? It thinner than water right?Adam MMorales Ranch
Reply:It's an 8 gallon cell, that would take a lot of RA to fill.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Not really...Just dump in about 2 cups and "Work" it around all the welded joints..If it's leakin' you will find it..(I use about 1/2 cup Acetone myself)......zap!I am not completely insane..Some parts are missing Professional Driver on a closed course....Do not attempt.Just because I'm a  dumbass don't mean that you can be too.So DON'T try any of this **** l do at home.
Reply:Ahhh.. You have a very valid point sir. I think I would rather use the alcohol vs soap/water.. the alcohol will fully evaporate also.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Just a thought for next time, but drill the holes for your AN bungs before you weld it up.  A lot easier to fish out shavings that way.
Reply:I'll vacuum them out through the filler hole.. it should be plenty big enough.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:I finished welding the tank shut, tested for leaks and none. YAY! now I get to weld in the an fittings and test those.. No update pics yet, I forgot my camera.I will say My T joint welds need work.. the welds for the sup to tank don't look pretty, but they will work.. all the rest of the welds look great..  T joints are my weakness, for aluminum at least, stainless or regular steel, no issue.. aluminum.. bleh.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:In the future I would suggest putting the metal edge to edge, then you have a weld that is the kind done on a gas tank. It is so much easier to weld edge to edge too. No kidding. And you almost do not even have to sand it. It comes out almost perfect. Very little wire, it goes very fast, totally penetrates too. I am just telling you because that is how it is normally done in any welding shop. But it looks good.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:I don't deal in thin stuff so I'm only commenting on what I see here. How you tacked up your pieces did not give the filler metal anywhere to go, not unless you ground a groove into each joint before you welded it.  I guess the way I look at it is what is the worst case senario, would the tank hold up in a crash? Maybe if you had extra material (the cost of learning) build two identical tanks with one welded like you did and the second one like how William states.  Fill them full of water and then do drop test and see which one fails first.Originally Posted by William McCormick JrIn the future I would suggest putting the metal edge to edge, then you have a weld that is the kind done on a gas tank. It is so much easier to weld edge to edge too. No kidding. And you almost do not even have to sand it. It comes out almost perfect. Very little wire, it goes very fast, totally penetrates too. I am just telling you because that is how it is normally done in any welding shop. But it looks good.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Corner joint.
Reply:Yes on corner joints you leave them edge to edge and almost just melt them together with little filler wire. If you need a very square corner, for cosmetic purposes, you can always go back with a giant filler wire and add a heavy bead. And then file or sand. I am sure if you welded that joint and penetrated, you rounded the corner anyway. The problem is welding that kind of joint properly. I am not sure any old timer is going to give that method a thumbs up. Even if you welded it from both sides. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that is the truth. So it is better to just fit them up edge to edge and make sure the weld is perfect, or as good as humanly possible. You can also put a piece of aluminum angle behind the weld. It keeps a little coverage gas behind the joint as well. And acts like a heat sink. You can weld about ten times faster with it behind there. And the weld comes out much nicer. You can put the peddle to the metal and just weld.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:>>Yes on corner joints you leave them edge to edge and almost just melt them together with little filler wire.<<That is how they taught us in Welding class.Anyways, good job, I'm sure what you have done will work just fine.10-4.Working on cars and bikes is my hobby, learning to weld the pieces together is my quest.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jay OCorner joint.
Reply:We use an angle behind the parts, and I even clamp up two more angles on the outside. It is nicer with two guys to be honest. But I can set it up by myself. But then it only takes a few seconds to run down the weld. So you lose up front a little time, but not much. Because once you get the first two angles set, the next piece lays on the inside angle and then you just put the last outside angle on, align everything, and go. That is how we weld tanks. And basically all corner joints. The end plates or final plates are usually done without any angles. You just cannot get them in there. But we make those last welds to be done, the small sides and do them last. Before people see how easy it is and how many pitfalls it saves. They will swear it is not feasible or it is just ridiculous. Or that I do not weld much and I am just imagining a better way or something. We even had some old welders saying stop the bullshiit. Ha-ha.But once they see it takes me less then a minute to set it up. And then see me flawlessly fly down the weld. As fast and perfectly penetrating as is possible, with a tiny bead formed inside.  They are offering to get the angles out for me. There is just no other way to them anymore. Nothing you could tell them anymore. If I get a chance I will make a movie of it being done on a small tank. There are some little tricks to knowing where to start, and how to align the side as you go for the final end plates. Once you see how easy it is. You will always do it like that. You need things like a putty knife, or a very thin screw driver to do it though. But it is just the order you do the tacks that makes it go smoothly every time. Most guys try to line the plate up at first. And you do not do that ever. You let it hang, down ten inches, if that is where it wants to hang. While you tack and align as you go starting from a corner. At the end you will see the ten inches is now nothing, it comes out perfect every time. But I have worked with guys that just had to put a tack right in the middle of the weld or at the far end. They just could not do what they were asked to do. Because it seems to go against other lessons of life. Ha-ha.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:A video would be cool. I think i understand what you're saying with the angle, I'll probably try it next time.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Ok, I got some updates.. good and bad.Good, it's damn near finished, Just need to throw some mounting tabs on it.Bad news.. well.. the bad news is, I was not mentally clear when I was finishing it up and welded the fittings in the wrong place... So now I have to cut the lid off, turn in 180* and weld it back on...   I'm so pissed at myself for making such a stupid mistake...Here are some more pics. Attached Imageswww.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:1-Efficient fabrication requires prior planning-on paper,then making layouts/shop drawings to follow. This forces one to do thinking & planning in advance.Mistakes made on paper are much easier to identify and correctthan mistakes made in metal.-Locating and machining the fitting openings prior to tank assembly,not after is more efficient method.-The mounting method and location of the tank mounting tabsis rather critical to create a strong mounting system, that will notbreak off or.......crack thru the tank wall. Using angles/channel sections are stiffer than flats. Using doubler plates over the tank wall and underthe mounting tab juncture stops wall cracking. Positioning tabs close to corners makes for stronger mounting. Verify that the mounting tab faces are not cocked relative towhatever they're bolted to in the vehicle and will fitup flushto those surfaces helps stop tank stress and cracking.        2-Pic below:  Those fittings are 'line contact' fittings. RED ARROWAny little ding or scratch on the angled, sealing cone can cause leakage.This can easily happen during fabrication/handling.Using AN threaded caps protects them, or at least tapingthem helps stop this.3-Pic Below: In the blue lined area, it almost looks like someweld bead is higher than the flange face. Suggest you checksealing with a male AN fitting. http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1277660957 Attached ImagesLast edited by dave powelson; 06-27-2010 at 02:02 PM.Reason: additionBlackbird
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelson1-Efficient fabrication requires prior planning-on paper,then making layouts/shop drawings to follow. This forces one to do thinking & planning in advance.Mistakes made on paper are much easier to identify and correctthan mistakes made in metal.
Reply:Doubler plate  If you were to mount a 1" tab in the center of one of the side walls with all the vibrations in time that weld can crack and cause a leak.  Now if you were to weld a 3" circular plate to the tank then weld the tab to that it will spread the stess and if a crack were to happen the tank would not leak.My question to you is do you think your tank can survive an impact?
Reply:Oh ok, I've seen that done before. I'm pretty confident it will hold together.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Pic below with overlay of an angle-BLUE OUTLINE welded todoubler plate on tank top.-The doubler plate 'doubles' the thickness of the parent tank wall or tube.In some cases it may be thicker, for more deflection strength.-For good stress distribution, the doubler extends to other sides.-The use of doubler plates for tank mounting isn't to improve crash worthiness.Tank leakage from cracked tank walls having no doubler plates and/orstitch welded joints is a main cause of tank failure.-That's 'WHY?' it's suggested to use doublers.-Tank mounting tabs that are not flush/square/etc. to the vehicle mountsput too much stress on the tank wall, when bolted down tight. The stressand vibration of operation then cracks either the mount tab or the tank wall. Very common failure mode.-[All of the above is from personal experience of repairing and constructingover 1500 tanks--not a cut and paste from Wikipedia. The 5052 alum. tank in picwas broke in two mating 'U's with center fully flanged and 4 sided plug weldedbaffle installed. Continuous, full fillet weld joints for all U mating areas.-Note the angle mounting tab extends along the entire tank bottom and is fullywelded-all around-top, sides and bottom.It serves as a type of doubler.] -For crash/crush resistance-using 2 overlapped, U-wraps for the tank sides, tops and bottoms, then fully welded (inside and outside), fully flanged heads with fully flanged and welded (or plug welded on thru the top wrap) is a proven, time and crash testeddesign used by reputable manufacturers, aka Transfer-Flow and a few others.......(Northern Tool tanks and that style are not built this way--so they're cheaper.)This costs at least 3X more than edge or corner welded construction--but it's much more crash worthy...DOT drop test-fill tank with water, drop from 10' to concrete, on tank corner--no more than 2 oz. leakage/minute.The thin, edge/corner welded 'fuel cells' toted as certified for racing---if in an unprotected, exposed location are a cruel joke.I would suggest that you consider designing somewhat stouter tanks in the future, for safetyreasons.http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1277745414 Attached ImagesBlackbird
Reply:Thank you for all the info. As stated, this is a huge learning curve for me, so I'm taking all this info in for future projects, I appreciate everything.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:I guess the true learning curve would be whether or not to apply what you have learned to this project.At times while building things at work I'm told to just slap a quick weld in but I never do I take the proper time to do it correctly or what I think is correctly. So when working for example on a platform 40 ft up I ask myself would my family be safe standing on this?  Now you welded up a fuel cell for someone that is going to use it in a race car and now ask yourself would you trust your work if you had a brother or your father driving that car and they crashed? You chose a nice poject to do that is with in your welding abilities but not within your knowledge and experience abilities.
Reply:I would suggest testing for leaks again, even add a small amount of pressure about 4 or 5 psi will do just to make sure that when its got fumes building up and the fuel sloshing against the poam you wont get any stess fractures, better safe than sorry.. As the saying goes measure three times cut once!
Reply:Originally Posted by Mad about MetalI would suggest testing for leaks again, even add a small amount of pressure about 4 or 5 psi will do just to make sure that when its got fumes building up and the fuel sloshing against the poam you wont get any stess fractures, better safe than sorry.. As the saying goes measure three times cut once!
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelson1-If that tank is tested at 5#, it will suffer permanent deformation and stressingof the joints, or worse.2-Pressure is pressure, whether by air or hydrostatic. We've had umpteen discussionson tank leak/pressure testing. [Yes, air testing is more hazardous than hydrostatic pressure testing. I don't suggest this for learners.]3-Again, from the limited experience I have in leak testing over 1500 tanks from 4 oz. to 3000 gal., using sensitive air or inert gas regulation, blow-off patches, etc.; with a 100% record of leak detection, without busting the tanks---below is how I would test this tank:-Stop pressure when elastic movement of tank walls is noted, or at a 2 PSI reading.4-OP hasn't asked about how one accomplishes seal tight welds in aluminum--so this topic hasn't been addressed-yet. Visually looking and doing good tie-ins thru,over, around all tacks, plus good tie-ins at all stop points is critical for seal tight.Prior to pressure testing, a thorough visual inspection of all welds, addressing anycraters (which shouldn't happen, in the first place), TIG washing any questionable areas.[I still do the above, since it saves re-work time.]When one finds leaks, determining 'why' is equally important as repairing the leak;if one's to learn how to avoid this in the future.
Reply:Originally Posted by Jay OI guess the true learning curve would be whether or not to apply what you have learned to this project.At times while building things at work I'm told to just slap a quick weld in but I never do I take the proper time to do it correctly or what I think is correctly. So when working for example on a platform 40 ft up I ask myself would my family be safe standing on this?  Now you welded up a fuel cell for someone that is going to use it in a race car and now ask yourself would you trust your work if you had a brother or your father driving that car and they crashed? You chose a nice poject to do that is with in your welding abilities but not within your knowledge and experience abilities.
Reply:Originally Posted by speedfreak87I consider this guy my bother.. There is a big event coming up where he is going to be showcasing his car for his business and wanted a new cell, I will probably remake it after using what you guys have told me.I pressure tested it prior to putting the AN fittings in, and once I fix my mistake, and it's sealed back up I'm going to retest it  again.
Reply:You would be surprised how many tanks will not take 4-5 pounds per square inch. Ha-ha.        Sincerely,             William McCormick
Reply:Thanks.What would you guys use to get some of the finer scratches out? I want to put a nice shine on this for my buddy.www.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Originally Posted by speedfreak87Thanks.What would you guys use to get some of the finer scratches out? I want to put a nice shine on this for my buddy.
Reply:I assume I would need a buffer also? lolwww.thefusionsolution.com
Reply:Not if there just light surface scratches. Hard to tell from the photos. Mothers does wonders with some elbow grease.