Would like to move from OXY/ACE to OXY/HHO...?

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Hello there,I'm NEW to the forum and look forward to participating....At present, I have a question regarding the move from Acetylene to Hydrogen.  I want a 'carbon free gas' for brazing...  I would like to know if anyone here has experience with that and whether or not there was 'things' that I should be aware of when making that transition.I have the following torch;Victor Performer (FC100 Series torch handle) with OXY/ACE tips and Cutting attachment.I believe I need a new 'Hydrogen Regulator' but can use all my other existing equipment including tips.  I plan on purging the "T-Hoses" with Argon / Co2 mix (75/25) and then hooking up the bottle of Hydrogen with the new regulator to the hoses.  Does this sound OK ?  Am I missing anything ?  Should I just go and buy new hoses instead of purging them ?  Any help would be MUCH appreciated !Cheers,/Jman...
Reply:Originally Posted by jmanHello there,I'm NEW to the forum and look forward to participating....At present, I have a question regarding the move from Acetylene to Hydrogen.  I want a 'carbon free gas' for brazing...  I would like to know if anyone here has experience with that and whether or not there was 'things' that I should be aware of when making that transition.I have the following torch;Victor Performer (FC100 Series torch handle) with OXY/ACE tips and Cutting attachment.I believe I need a new 'Hydrogen Regulator' but can use all my other existing equipment including tips.  I plan on purging the "T-Hoses" with Argon / Co2 mix (75/25) and then hooking up the bottle of Hydrogen with the new regulator to the hoses.  Does this sound OK ?  Am I missing anything ?  Should I just go and buy new hoses instead of purging them ?  Any help would be MUCH appreciated !Cheers,/Jman...
Reply:are you trying to stay away from acy for conamination reasons?
Reply:hho burns completely by itself.  Adding oxy or anything doesn't improve it.  Plus, the same torch cannot be used.  It will explode..I have done some experiments...trust me, you don't want to do this.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldhho burns completely by itself.  Adding oxy or anything doesn't improve it.  Plus, the same torch cannot be used.  It will explode..I have done some experiments...trust me, you don't want to do this.
Reply:I don't understand the nomenclature here. Hydrogen gas is H2, which combines with O2 to hive H20. {Sorry, my system isn't set up for the exact 'type') Thus, the title should be "...to Oxy/H2 ", correct?The flame is essentially colorless and hard to see. I know H2 was used for underwater cutting due to the higher pressure possible for H2, and used extensively for aluminum; does it cause problems of hydrogen embrittlement when used on some steels?
Reply:Mako,I have read extensively as well. the comustion process is complete, yielding water.The poster is referring to Brown's gas which is also referred to hho, because it is electrolosized water which is still 2 parts hydrogen to 1 part oxygen.There are several HHO torches on the market that are commercially available.  They use water and electricity and nothing more.  I have even built a small one myself.Here's one:[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6YYUOx6fBU[/ame]Last edited by lugweld; 02-05-2009 at 10:22 PM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldMako,I have read extensively as well. the comustion process is complete, yielding water.The poster is referring to Brown's gas which is also referred to hho, because it is electrolosized water which is still 2 parts hydrogen to 1 part oxygen.There are several HHO torches on the market that are commercially available.  They use water and electricity and nothing more.  I have even built a small one myself.Here's one:
Reply:Another good example why giving more details and explaining things well the first time helps, IMO.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2Another good example why giving more details and explaining things well the first time helps, IMO.
Reply:Hi everyone,Sorry about the confusion.  It is in fact, Hydrogen Gas that I want to use instead of the "HHO" as I posted....  "MY BAD" !  I was thinking about going to Hydrogen instead of Acetylene for contamination purposes, along with the fact that Acetylene will no doubt be a thing of the past.... (it's already super expensive where I live) and the gas is very unstable. I do a lot of 'Brazing" on non-ferrous material (using copperphosphate, LF bronze, nickel silver, etc..) and the cleanup is just taking up too much of my time once I'm finished some of my pieces.  All my 'steel' pieces are currenlty being "MIG'd" so that's not an issue.If figured going to Hydrogen would solve my problem and leave minor cleanup.  I've also been told that another good alternative to OXY/ACE would be "Propylene" (the newest replacement for MAPP).  Apparently, I would need to change my tips though, and the "Propylene" tips have "A LOT BIGGER" orifice' than my Acetylene / Hydrogen tips.....Hydrogen:New regulator, but can use all my current welding / cutting tips but gas is "Highly Explosive" given a leak (although it dissipates quickly)  It is however, "Carbon Free" and the 'cleanest' available gas.  The hottest flame of all gasses (BTU's anyway..)Propylene:Very Stable, easy to transport, 26lb tank is equivalent to 3 - 122 cube foot cylinders (last's forever) and still produces a nice hot flame.  Can also use current regulator and setup but need to buy new tips (both welding and cutting) which are likely going to be much larger orifices.  Although far less carbon than all other gasses (except hydrogen), it still produces some, but I would assume it would be more than clean enough for what I do....Damn, I'm confused....Cheers,/Jman...Last edited by jman; 02-06-2009 at 01:04 AM.Reason: SP
Reply:Jman, Dont be so affraid of hydrogen, just be smart about it. I would just go the hydrogen route, make sure everything is purged, and give it a shot. As for the future of acetylene, Im not sure where your located, but around me there is no shortage outside of that created by the companies themselves. Acetylene is not going away anytime soon, with recent discoveries on both fuel cells and the making of carbon nano-tubes, acetylene is coming back in the limelight. I know there were some articles published a while back about it, im not sure how truthful they were. The gas is vital to many processing opperations outside of anything involving a flame. Heck here is even just a quick article I found from last year. Enjoy!http://www.columbiamissourian.com/st...ene-investmen/
Reply:Originally Posted by jmanI do a lot of 'Brazing" on non-ferrous material (using copperphosphate, LF bronze, nickel silver, etc..) and the cleanup is just taking up too much of my time once I'm finished some of my pieces.  All my 'steel' pieces are currenlty being "MIG'd" so that's not an issue.
Reply:Pardon my ignorance.Is the new regulator for differences in pressure between ha and acetalene?Please explain:“The only issue comes in when acetylene and hydrogen are mixed, under pressure, in the presence of copper as a catalyst” Does that include brass and bronz?hho burns completely by itself. Mixed in those proportions, Why isn’t that explosive as hell(no pun intended)?Using browns gas, wouldn’t you always get a neutral flame? How does it cut ferrous metal if there is no added  O2A butterfly without wings, is just an ugly bug
Reply:Lugweld"I have even built a small one myself."Can you elaborate?A butterfly without wings, is just an ugly bug
Reply:Originally Posted by Magnetic MechanicPardon my ignorance.Is the new regulator for differences in pressure between ha and acetalene?Please explain:“The only issue comes in when acetylene and hydrogen are mixed, under pressure, in the presence of copper as a catalyst” Does that include brass and bronz?hho burns completely by itself. Mixed in those proportions, Why isn’t that explosive as hell(no pun intended)?Using browns gas, wouldn’t you always get a neutral flame? How does it cut ferrous metal if there is no added  O2
Reply:i guess i never underdstood the contaimniation part of using ACE,,. i braze med gas copper..  NFPA99 cert. and they preach and preach to keep the copper clean as possible for a few reasons..  one of them is b/c it has the chance to carry 99% med grade oxy which we all know what  happends when O2 comes in contact with oil...  im just wondering how much cleaner does your work have to be compaired to mine...  i guess i dont see where the gas itself is contaiminating your work..
Reply:Originally Posted by shott8283i guess i never underdstood the contaimniation part of using ACE,,. i braze med gas copper..  NFPA99 cert. and they preach and preach to keep the copper clean as possible for a few reasons..  one of them is b/c it has the chance to carry 99% med grade oxy which we all know what  happends when O2 comes in contact with oil...  im just wondering how much cleaner does your work have to be compaired to mine...  i guess i dont see where the gas itself is contaiminating your work..
Reply:Originally Posted by jmanIt's not the gas itself... it's the "Carbon Content" in the gas.  The soot from the Acetylene having such a high carbon content creates serious oxides.
Reply:Originally Posted by rlitmanI do a bunch of copper brazing with sol-phos and copper-phosphorus rod.If you're doing this fluxless process, oxy-propane and oxy-mapp leaves just as black a surface as oxy-acetylene.  Its not the carbon coming from the acetylene, if propane isn't any cleaner.  I'm guessing that if you want shiny copper, TIG is the only option.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Whoa.....Carbon does not cause oxides, oxygen does. What soot? I never have soot in my work. If you look at the chemistry.,.....there shouldnt ANY left over un-attached carbons as whats left over by primary combustion reacts with atmospheric oxygen to create the secondary envelope. In fact its this oxygen free outer envelope that allows welding without oxidation in the first place. I think you either have other contaminates, arent using your torch correctly, or dont understand the root cause of your problem. Maybe we can help solve the problem without jumping over to another fuel gas, so lay it on us.-AaronP.S. Propane, Mapp, etc are all carbon containing as well FYI
Reply:Acetylene is C2H2 with a triple bond  and the lowest  H to C ratio. Propane is C3H8  and propylene is C3 H6 due to the double bond. Also represented as h3C-Ch=Ch2 using small h to make it look better.The reason for the soot with acetylene is that the molecule is more unstable and more easily stripped of the hydrogen, but this shouldn't be causing any more problem because the flame should be adjusted to give a nearly neutral atmosphere where the flame is impinging on the work. You can even use a somewhat oxidizing inner flame, as the outer envelope is hot enough to do the work so the inner flame should be removed from the hot work.If your problem is with oxides, using a more reducing flame should solve your problem better than changing to a hydrogen flame, IMO. Even if you do get some carbon depositing on your work, these metals won't form carbides or any other carbon-containing compounds so that should be very easily removed.Depending on exactly what you are working on, it shouldn't be hard to use a dilute acid solution to remove any slight discoloration, although bead blasting, a vibratory unit w/ walnut shells, or various other methods might be better for you.
Reply:BTW, with most gases, incomplete combustion results in carbon monoxide (CO) rather than free carbon, hence the lack of smoke. Kerosene,  poorly adjusted diesel engines, candles with too large a wick or in a breeze which disrupts the flame, all will be smoky because the molecule decomposes in stages as molecules around it combine first with the outer hydrogens and the end/outside carbon atoms.With too little oxygen, carbon and smaller fragments of the original molecule can remain. That is how carbon black is made commercially; having a flame impinge on a cold surface which interrupts the process by removing the heat before the carbon combines.
Reply:Originally Posted by jmanSorry,Oxygen is culprit...  Run a carburizing flame and tell me that there isn't any soot !  Now run straight propane or NG and see if the shop fills up with the same tiny little chunks of carbon....  I think not.All the heavier gasses have lower carbon content but use more oxygen, alas the higher amount of oxidization.  I suppose that's what I meant./Jman...
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2BTW, with most gases, incomplete combustion results in carbon monoxide (CO) rather than free carbon, hence the lack of smoke. Kerosene,  poorly adjusted diesel engines, candles with too large a wick or in a breeze which disrupts the flame, all will be smoky because the molecule decomposes in stages as molecules around it combine first with the outer hydrogens and the end/outside carbon atoms.With too little oxygen, carbon and smaller fragments of the original molecule can remain. That is how carbon black is made commercially; having a flame impinge on a cold surface which interrupts the process by removing the heat before the carbon combines.Originally Posted by makoman1860Jman, Dont be so affraid of hydrogen, just be smart about it. I would just go the hydrogen route, make sure everything is purged, and give it a shot. As for the future of acetylene, Im not sure where your located, but around me there is no shortage outside of that created by the companies themselves. Acetylene is not going away anytime soon, with recent discoveries on both fuel cells and the making of carbon nano-tubes, acetylene is coming back in the limelight. I know there were some articles published a while back about it, im not sure how truthful they were. The gas is vital to many processing opperations outside of anything involving a flame. Heck here is even just a quick article I found from last year. Enjoy!http://www.columbiamissourian.com/st...ene-investmen/
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Umm, dont use a reducing flame then? So what is your problem? Oxidation or un-attached carbon? The carbon you see when you burn pure acetylene at low velocity is due to the nature of the tripple bond and the poor fuel/air mixing. Now add in even ambient oxygen more effeciently....and the "soot" goes away. Ever see an air/acetylene torch? I have a production unit used for brazing aluminum and copper durring WW2. Anyway it sounds like you many not have a good understanding of the chemistry of combustion, so lets try to isolate the real problem. So I repeat, are you having oxidation problems, or carbon contamination?
Reply:Originally Posted by jmanWell, now I am confused....  Perhaps it is the 'Oxidzation' that is causing me grief !  Here's an example of what I've seen.  Maybe this will help.I brazed together a sculpture of '1/8" copper coated' tig rod into a circle.  The tig rod was fanned out in a circle with a heavy piece of brass in the middle that held all the rods together to form what looked like a Huge spoked bicycle wheel.Because of the very small amount of copper sheath on the tig rod, I had a helluva time cleaning the rod up without pulling off most of the copper sheath.  This was especially true with the Low-Fume Bronze as it's melting point is obviously higher than copperphos or silphos and the rod needs to get hot.  Anyway, because of this, I eventually had to change the design and add color to the piece where I didn't really want it....Now, here's the thing.....I went to a trade show not too long ago and saw a similar project that was basically 'devoid' of ANY obvious clean-up and the amount of brass used was 'twice' what I had used on my own project.  The person wasn't the actual Artist but did eventually tell me that the lack of cleanup 'scarring' was due to the fact that the Artist was using Bare Bronze Brazing rod (same as mine) and a in-line "Fluxer" (which I don't have) with the OXY/ACE torch.  Every single metal project was also SUPER CLEAN and lacking of obvious heavy or moderate clean-up. These pieces were also NOT plated after the fact.Apparently the Fluxer is doing something, but what ?  Is it acting like a shielding gas ?  It's obviously FLUX, but it must be doing something in the mix of gas that the surface stuff does not quite do !I'm stumped !Cheers,/Jman...
Reply:Acetylene is the raw material in the synthesis of many organic compounds and as such, is indispensable in the petrochemical industry. It is itself made mainly from other hydrocarbons now, whereas it used to only be produced by the Calcium Carbide reaction. Incidentally, it was one of the first organic compounds to be synthesized from purely inorganic compounds, especially on an industrial scale. [That site above, which I missed seeing before, explains this point well.]As Makoman said above, other commonly available gases don't come close to its high flame temperature and to the high energy released relative to the energy content of the combustion products, meaning the amount of heat available to do the work by heating the metal. As long as responsible people who follow the correct procedures work in proper environments, the filling and transportation of acetylene cylinders should be as safe as anything else in this modern world. I do realize that long ago, the only hazards to life and limb were finding food and shelter from the weather, animals, other tribes, and other trivial things. But I digress...Flux work both by dissolving oxides and other compounds which have formed on the surface of the metals, and by sealing the surfaces of the hot metal from contact with the reactive gases of the air. Some fluxes, if overheated, can be too aggressive or breakdown and not work at all. The right one can work wonders. Then again, maybe for your purposes, a much lower-melting but lower strength (which also might be much cheaper) would be suitable and even allow a propane torch to do the heating.  That might reduce burning/oxide production to a minimum.Last edited by Oldiron2; 02-06-2009 at 09:38 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Jman, You have a flux , technique and material issue, not a fuel gas issue. What flux are you using? How are you using it? How are you cleaning your filler?Oh and the issue with acetylene.....there isnt anything that can replace it for fusion welding of steel and some other materials due to the chemistry of the flame, and its used too much in industry. I really dont believe its going away in my lifetime, and I have a lot of years left. In fact with the need for more alternative fuels, it may become more popular as companies find more effecient ways to produce it. My 125 exchange costs me $33 at the local airgas.Check this outhttp://www.karlsteiger.de/index.php?...=107&Itemid=84
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2Acetylene is the raw material in the synthesis of many organic compounds and as such, is indispensable in the petrochemical industry. It is itself made mainly from other hydrocarbons now, whereas it used to only be produced by the Calcium Carbide reaction. Incidentally, it was one of the first organic compounds to be synthesized from purely inorganic compounds, especially on an industrial scale. [That site above, which I missed seeing before, explains this point well.]As Makoman said above, other commonly available gases don't come close to its high flame temperature and to the high energy released relative to the energy content of the combustion products, meaning the amount of heat available to do the work by heating the metal. As long as responsible people who follow the correct procedures work in proper environments, the filling and transportation of acetylene cylinders should be as safe as anything else in this modern world. I do realize that long ago, the only hazards to life and limb were finding food and shelter from the weather, animals, other tribes, and other trivial things. But I digress...Flux work both by dissolving oxides and other compounds which have formed on the surface of the metals, and by sealing the surfaces of the hot metal from contact with the reactive gases of the air. Some fluxes, if overheated, can be too aggressive or breakdown and not work at all. The right one can work wonders. Then again, maybe for your purposes, a much lower-melting but lower strength (which also might be much cheaper) would be suitable and even allow a propane torch to do the heating.  That might reduce burning/oxide production to a minimum.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Jman, Dont be so affraid of hydrogen, just be smart about it. I would just go the hydrogen route, make sure everything is purged, and give it a shot. As for the future of acetylene, Im not sure where your located, but around me there is no shortage outside of that created by the companies themselves. Acetylene is not going away anytime soon, with recent discoveries on both fuel cells and the making of carbon nano-tubes, acetylene is coming back in the limelight. I know there were some articles published a while back about it, im not sure how truthful they were. The gas is vital to many processing opperations outside of anything involving a flame. Heck here is even just a quick article I found from last year. Enjoy!http://www.columbiamissourian.com/st...ene-investmen/
Reply:As a "solderer" myself in this forum I dont claim to be an expert in any way but if you light an acetylene flame without oxygen it is sooty, once oxygen is added it is clean. so I am wondering how jman is thinking it is oxygen that causes the soot. to me there must be a more oxygen to burn the fuel. Bascially like a car that is running rich there is too much fuel and not enouph oxygen it will smoke a bit and you can smell the fuel more than if you "lean it out" (reduce fuel to air mixture which adds oxygen to the process). I thought just about everyone knew to burn something is to combust [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion] (or oxidize). see also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox]. I hope this helps in laymans terms jman, I mean no disrespect. thanks lugweld for the video that was very interesting, and everyone else.
Reply:Originally Posted by davcollinsAs a "solderer" myself in this forum I dont claim to be an expert in any way but if you light an acetylene flame without oxygen it is sooty, once oxygen is added it is clean. so I am wondering how jman is thinking it is oxygen that causes the soot. to me there must be a more oxygen to burn the fuel. Bascially like a car that is running rich there is too much fuel and not enouph oxygen it will smoke a bit and you can smell the fuel more than if you "lean it out" (reduce fuel to air mixture which adds oxygen to the process). I thought just about everyone knew to burn something is to combust [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion] (or oxidize). see also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox]. I hope this helps in laymans terms jman, I mean no disrespect. thanks lugweld for the video that was very interesting, and everyone else.
Reply:Originally Posted by jmanNo worries,I think you may have read the post wrongly....  It's the carbon from acetylene that causes the soot, but too much oxygen can cause 'oxidization' of various metals also, depending on the gas being used.It's the ratios of Oxygen that concerns me....  Acetylene is 'low' compared to many other fuels in that it is only uses 1-1 ratio as a rule.  It's still a VERY dirty gas regardless of the amount of oxygen it uses.  Propane burns much 'cleaner' but the ratio is around 4-1 and although it uses less fuel, the oxygen be used is very high and 'can result' in 'oxydization' of the metal in question.  Hydrogen on the other hand uses a ration of  0.5-1 which is why it is the 'cleanest' burning flame available.  I'm trying to find a decent mid-point' (safety / purity / performance / cost) and I think that "Propylene" may now be the better choice.I'm going to one of my suppliers this week to pick up a sample of the Propylene and a few Victor tips to try it out....I've done quite a bit of soldering myself and to be quite honest, I think that my Weller 100 would likely come in handy for some of the delicate copper work.  Now if I could just find Solder in a color other than Silver ! Cheers,/Jman...
Reply:It's the ratios of Oxygen that concerns me.... Acetylene is 'low' compared to many other fuels in that it is only uses 1-1 ratio as a rule. It's still a VERY dirty gas regardless of the amount of oxygen it uses. Propane burns much 'cleaner' but the ratio is around 4-1 and although it uses less fuel, the oxygen be used is very high and 'can result' in 'oxydization' of the metal in question. Hydrogen on the other hand uses a ration of 0.5-1 which is why it is the 'cleanest' burning flame available. I'm trying to find a decent mid-point' (safety / purity / performance / cost) and I think that "Propylene" may now be the better choice.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2Propylene has two fewer hydrogens than propane so is moving you farther from the ratio you consider to be the 'cleanest'.
Reply:Originally Posted by rlitmanExactly why I mentioned propane first.Oxy-propane IS used for lots of glass work (as is oxy-natural gas), where the dirtier acetylene flame can stain the glass, and oxy-hydrogen is used for platinum work, where the platinum can react with the carbon as well.  BUT, I've never heard of carbon causing issues with copper.  That's more of a process problem than a gas problem.
Reply:Jman, I think your confusing free carbons with the disassosiation of the carbon and oxygen in the resultant CO2 in certain materials. Glass is one, Platinum is another. Also with glass the surface temperature of the glass is quite low, and so quenches the remaining gasses from primary combustion. The flame is not dirty...you are just "putting it out" before the secondary combustion envelope can happen. In welding, we dont have this as the surface of the metals is hot enough to not quench. In brazing however it might be cold enough.
Reply:That Platinum adsorbs phosphorus or carbon at a red heat and becomes brittle, is irrelevant when talking about copper, brass or even silver. Platinum also forms fusible alloys with the easily-reduced metals including lead and tin, which only alloy with the surface of copper based metals.Colors formed on the surfaces of metals are not only dependent on the compounds formed, but also on the thickness of the layers and often on changes in the composition with the depth of  the layers. That does not require carbon to occur. Getting back to your original question, oxy-hydrogen may work for your application, but if your problem is  due to some of the possibilities mentioned in this thread, other solutions may be easier and cheaper.  Then again, maybe you will still have the problem, so it's better to determine the cause first before switching.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2That Platinum adsorbs phosphorus or carbon at a red heat and becomes brittle, is irrelevant when talking about copper, brass or even silver. Platinum also forms fusible alloys with the easily-reduced metals including lead and tin, which only alloy with the surface of copper based metals.Colors formed on the surfaces of metals are not only dependent on the compounds formed, but also on the thickness of the layers and often on changes in the composition with the depth of  the layers. That does not require carbon to occur. Getting back to your original question, oxy-hydrogen may work for your application, but if your problem is  due to some of the possibilities mentioned in this thread, other solutions may be easier and cheaper.  Then again, maybe you will still have the problem, so it's better to determine the cause first before switching.
Reply:Originally Posted by makoman1860Jman, I think your confusing free carbons with the disassosiation of the carbon and oxygen in the resultant CO2 in certain materials. Glass is one, Platinum is another. Also with glass the surface temperature of the glass is quite low, and so quenches the remaining gasses from primary combustion. The flame is not dirty...you are just "putting it out" before the secondary combustion envelope can happen. In welding, we dont have this as the surface of the metals is hot enough to not quench. In brazing however it might be cold enough.