Negotiating question

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I hope this is in the right place.I am shopping for a new Miller Syncrowave 200.  I know the best price is on cyberweld & welders-direct(2242.00), but I want to try to keep my money local if possible. I went to my local dealer and told him I want to keep my money local but cant justify the extra money. Their price is $130 more and he told me their margin was low at 9%, and that his boss doesn't like it that low.  I asked if he could at least throw in some tungsten or some rods or anything to at least make me feel like I'm doing the right thing. "No sorry we just can't do anything." I asked if his boss would rather have less than 9% or nothing at all? "Sorry we just can't do anything." He was polite, but I just don't understand letting money walk out the door. What do ya'll think?Thanks
Reply:$130 seems a fair price for being able to just load it in your truck and drive away, rather than deal with shipping. If it were me, I'd learn the guys names and make sure they knew mine and shake hands when it's done, it may be very valuable down the road.Ian TannerKawasaki KX450 and many other fine tools
Reply:For $ 130.00 I would buy it local. When you need something down the road you may wish you spent the $ 130.00. I am just a hobby welder and by bringing in coffee to the LWS once in awhile when I go saves me way more than $ 130.00.I send my son once in a while because he works right around there and they know him and have no problem letting him pick stuff up for me or exchanging bottles, that alone would be worth the money to me.Miller Diversion 180Lincoln Mig Pak 5000 HDHypertherm 45Uni-Spotter Stud WelderOxy Set-up with Harris TorchMiller 30FX Arc StationMiller Elite - Hockey Canada Helmet
Reply:Sometimes you just have to stick to your guns as a business. Same saying could apply to "well would you rather have 3% or nothing or 2% etc etc" As a small business owner 9% is nothing to make on an item. We are lucky to get 25% markup and even  that is tough to survive on. If you really want to stay local then pay the guy, you are likely to get better service than on a 'net purchased machine and you keep business local. What if (insert business you work for) was based on local sales? If everyone shopped for the cheapest you would no longer be employed.  My rule of thumb for most purchases is if I can pay 10% or less to buy it local I will. As a matter of fact I just pulled the trigger on a Thermal Arc Fabricator that I could have bought online for about 950.00 or so and its 1090.00 from my local guy. But these are also the guys who have run special rod down to us when needed or offered 3 payments on equipment when we needed time to pay etc etc. "Anybody can talk $h!t behind a monitor, I let the quality of my work speak for itself"Lincoln Square Wave 255 and 355 Tig Lincoln 255 Power-Mig w/ spool gun Koike 5 x 10 CNC plasma Hyd-Mech DM-10 bandsaw Ineco QB-76 NC tube bender
Reply:My LWS always works with me, I hate going in to a "real" store and not be able to dicker on price with them.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:I think you did what you could by asking. Some shops live on the margins with some items and care less about their margins on others. Sometimes you just need to know which question to ask too. When I picked up my Miller 180 I asked them if they'd honor the price on their website. Their response was "Website? We have a website?". I told them to look it up and they were cool with it.
Reply:Investing $130.00 in a LWS to help ensure they have the consumables you are going to need to make use of that new machine, sound like money well spent.Think what a PIA it is going to be to need tungsten and waiting for the FedEx truck. If you wont spend your money with them who will?
Reply:I understand they gotta make money, I just wanted him to throw me a bone for at least trying to do business locally. I had cash in my pocket, I would have been happy with few tungsten rods or even a welding hat. Their profit on that machine is around 185 bucks, if that 9% s true. What does it take to throw in 10 dollars to seal a deal.  I may still go back and drop a couple grand, I'm just a hagler at heart, and wanted to know the extra money I spend locally is appreciated.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mango MattoI understand they gotta make money, I just wanted him to throw me a bone for at least trying to do business locally. I had cash in my pocket, I would have been happy with few tungsten rods or even a welding hat. Their profit on that machine is around 185 bucks, if that 9% s true. What does it take to throw in 10 dollars to seal a deal.  I may still go back and drop a couple grand, I'm just a hagler at heart, and wanted to know the extra money I spend locally is appreciated.
Reply:I would pay the $130 difference, but we have to pay sales tax in Georgia which adds another $120. That starts to be significant. I agree that it is worth some additional money to pick it up there, be comfortable going in and asking them questions, or if necessary be able to use them for any repair work without feeling like a cowed dog.Mango, I'm sure my LWS would have thrown in a hat AND some tungsten, but maybe after you make the deal and loading the truck, not as part of the deal. My vote is to pay the $130 and buy local.Burt _____________________Miller Syncrowave 250Millermatic 211Miller 375 Plasma Cutter Hobart Handler 12010FtDrillBit.com
Reply:Originally Posted by CoupebuilderIf you are looking for them to kow-tow to you for spending money locally maybe you should just buy the machine online and if you have any problems see how they treat you if you bring it there for service and expect them to be of any help. We all love a deal, but when I have guys in that want me to kiss their butts just to get a few bucks out of them like they are doing me a huge favor they usually get shown the door in an immediate and none too friendly fashion. I tell them to go to Walmart and see if they can haggle in a few free dvd's with their new TV purchase and my answer will be the same as Walmarts. Most of us run a business, not a garage sale.
Reply:Thanks for all the replies by the way I really appreciate it!!!
Reply:offer to split the difference with them, if they won't call the next nearest dealer.  i just bought a new millermatic 212 paid $100.00 more than cyberweld but the LWS gave me 33 pound roll of  wire and lots of good will.TimJust some stuff in my shop.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mango MattoDo you ever negotiate purchases as a business owner? If so, that is the same thing I am doing. I always negotiate. I have actually negotiated a price on a large purchase at Target as well. I guess its just bred into me. I am very likely gonna still make the purchase just wanted to get other opinions on it.
Reply:I decided to go place the order after all. He rounded it down 5 bucks in the end. I'm definitely anxious for it to arrive on Tuesday.  Thanks for the sound advice hope it pays off in the end.
Reply:second the local thing for larger items.  Bought a toolbox from the states (a 2' x 2' x 4' greenlee box) for something like 350 a few years ago.  AFTER ALL WAS SAID AND DONE HOLY $#!T! 1000 bucks overall (give or take!)Smaller, special order items, no problem.  But for larger items, always local.
Reply:I like to save a buck, and would have bought local.  I'm sure they appreciate your business.  I'm not good at negotiating with people when the money is in my pocket.  I rarely ever haggle, and just pay what they're asking.  The reason being is that my prices I put up for my products are prices I want for them.  I don't need people beating me up on prices.  Sure it happens, but not too often.  What was shipping from the internet going to be?  Hope you love that new machine!-AaronJet 17.5" Drill Press1942 South Bend 16x84 Lathe1980s Miller 320A / BP --- 2013 Power Mig 2562012 Jet 7x12 Horizontal BandsawVictor O/A Setup
Reply:Originally Posted by rabidchimpI like to save a buck, and would have bought local.  I'm sure they appreciate your business.  I'm not good at negotiating with people when the money is in my pocket.  I rarely ever haggle, and just pay what they're asking.  The reason being is that my prices I put up for my products are prices I want for them.  I don't need people beating me up on prices.  Sure it happens, but not too often.  What was shipping from the internet going to be?  Hope you love that new machine!-Aaron
Reply:Like wb4rt said, I want to prevent paying the tax. In my area it's around 10% And I will not give one extra penny than I have to, to this disgusting ghetto state I live in. So, I try to go to IN for as many purchases that I can. PISS ON IL!"Where's Stick man????????" - 7A749"SHHHHHH!! I sent him over to snag that MIC-4 while tbone wasn't looking!" - duaneb55"I have bought a few of Tbone's things unlike Stick-Man who helps himself" - TozziWelding"Stick-man"
Reply:We have a .0825 sales tax here but generally I love this state. That's another reason the internet options can be attractive, but that's not the local dealers fault.Last edited by Mango Matto; 05-18-2012 at 10:12 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mango MattoDo you ever negotiate purchases as a business owner? If so, that is the same thing I am doing. I always negotiate. I have actually negotiated a price on a large purchase at Target as well. I guess its just bred into me. I am very likely gonna still make the purchase just wanted to get other opinions on it.
Reply:I forget what I was quoted at my LWS, I think it was like $50 more than Cyberweld.  Not that bad!  But, we have a local 6% and 8% in the city.  Not sure if this LWS is considered city or not, but the tax added $115-$150 bump just for tax.  And then the same with gloves, helmet, etc.  Believe me, I added it all up and unforunately I had a tax return that I wanted work in - I couldn't do it, at all, if I went to LWS.  Nothing against them - they have been helpful!  But, at the same time, not having bought my machine through them they've still been excellent.In my opinion you've got to do what you've got to do.  I understand the argument of supporting local, and trust me, I would if I could, but I really didn't have the money.  It's not the LWS fault, its just how tax runs in my area.  If I was in a tax free or lower tax state then I would have done it for sure.Miller Diversion 180Hobart Handler 140 (Soon to be replaced with Miller 211?)Miller Spectrum 625 Extreme
Reply:Originally Posted by WeldingMachineNot to mention, I would never trust a welding machine to those ups guys, I've seen how they load those trucks...
Reply:Your LWS makes absolutely NOTHING on the tax he collects on a welding machine.Technically, in a sales tax state, you're "legally" obligated (yea, I know, few do) to report the purchase at the time you file your taxes and pay the sales tax.For a minor difference, say 5-10% between an internet seller and my LWS, I'll go with the LWS every time.  Somehow, I don't think I could go in there and ask a question knowing I just screwed them out of a sale over $50.A good relationship is nearly essential if you're operating a business.  I can't count the times when mine has dropped off a bottle for me when I'm in the middle of a project, or found a special tig filler I had trouble locating.  Couple years ago, my LWS called me and said, "I've got a 330 of tri-mix here that was ordered for a big commercial job.  They didn't use all the bottles. so, if you want it, bring me one of your empties."  I'm not one of their "high volume" businesses, but I get their "best commercial pricing".  There's a lot of things the LWS can do that may not equate to dollars saved, but can make life a lot easier.  Oh, and I guess I shouldn't forget to mention the referrals I get from them.In my shop, the fastest way to get your job rejected, is to tell me how much it should cost or how long it should take me to do it.  How could I not understand my LWS's need to make a "little profit"?Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I think the LWS need to be supported but it is one thing to demand a firm price on something they have right there, after all when you want it you want it then and may be willing to pay the premium, But I wouldn't if they have to order just like I would off the net. I really have a pet peave about dealers not having things but telling me we can order it, my standard response is I can order it and save a lot of money. If your dealer is ordering it they should at least drop ship it right to your place."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400Im the same way kolot.   I miss the days when dealers would actually stock things.     Im far to impatient to wait for them to bring something in from the warehouse when its a VERY common item they damn well should have in stock.Vantage 500's LN-25's, VI-400's, cobramatics, Miller migs, synch 350 LX, Powcon inverters, XMT's, 250 Ton Acurrpress 12' brake, 1/4" 10' Atlantic shear,Koikie plasma table W/ esab plasmas. marvel & hyd-mech saws, pirrana & metal muncher punches.
Reply:I'd give the ad to my LWS, if they wanted to match it then I'd buy it from them, granted I'd have to pay  sales tax on it ($200! on a $2000 welder), otherwise I'd just order it online. Most of the time they can't even come close on equipment purchases. I think that they are stuck in the days of corporate purchases where the purchaser didn't care about the price, they just signed for it. My LWS doesn't care where I bought my current machines when I go in there for parts, nor do they care where I bought my last spool of wire. They are just interested in my current purchase. I go there for most all my welding supplies, except for flap disks, as I can get them online for less than half what they want.
Reply:At $130 extra, I'd go with the LWS. If you have any warranty issues, you deal with them. I'd never buy a machine off the internet. I also think that expecting them to price match is unrealistic as they have higher overhead and dont do volume sales. There's a saying that I like;Shop at the stores you want to keep.Thermal Arc Fabricator 2101970 Lincoln RedfaceMiller 150 STLStill need a Syncrowave and a plasma and a milling machine and a lathe and a bigger shop and a....
Reply:I like Canoe2fish's saying and back it 100%. What non-business owners don't realize is that the 'net companies may not even exist except on paper. Most of the time they are a leased office with sales people and no stock and everything is drop shipped. Obviously they have very little overhead and labor to pay so they can sell for just a few bucks over cost. If everyone felt the same way about buying cheapest we would just have Walmart left  and no competition.  Its great to save a buck, but what if your local LWS goes belly up...are you going to have your gas bottles shipped in via UPS? Need a pack of tungsten on Sat to finsih a job...oh well better wait a week. You get the point. Also for the business owners out there, are you guys aware of Manufacturers Exempt status? It's much different than re-sale exempt and any weld shop that makes parts that go out the door can use it....if all you do is repairs I don't think its doable, but for anyone who produces an actual product you should eb tax exempt from equipment purchases. "Anybody can talk $h!t behind a monitor, I let the quality of my work speak for itself"Lincoln Square Wave 255 and 355 Tig Lincoln 255 Power-Mig w/ spool gun Koike 5 x 10 CNC plasma Hyd-Mech DM-10 bandsaw Ineco QB-76 NC tube bender
Reply:I'm not sure about Manufacturers Exemption in Texas, but I will definitely look into it. Thanks for the info.
Reply:Originally Posted by Stick-manLike wb4rt said, I want to prevent paying the tax. In my area it's around 10% And I will not give one extra penny than I have to, to this disgusting ghetto state I live in. So, I try to go to IN for as many purchases that I can. PISS ON IL!
Reply:Remember you actually have to be a manufacturer (yeah-like a real business lol) and it requires a sales tax #. With that said for some reason a lot of guys don't know about it or dont use it. When it comes to a few thousand dollars in machinery its well worth the 5 minutes to fill out the paper. "Anybody can talk $h!t behind a monitor, I let the quality of my work speak for itself"Lincoln Square Wave 255 and 355 Tig Lincoln 255 Power-Mig w/ spool gun Koike 5 x 10 CNC plasma Hyd-Mech DM-10 bandsaw Ineco QB-76 NC tube bender
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIIIYour LWS makes absolutely NOTHING on the tax he collects on a welding machine.
Reply:Originally Posted by CoupebuilderRemember you actually have to be a manufacturer (yeah-like a real business lol) and it requires a sales tax #. With that said for some reason a lot of guys don't know about it or dont use it. When it comes to a few thousand dollars in machinery its well worth the 5 minutes to fill out the paper.
Reply:If you are really in business its worth the time to read through it. Here it is in a nutshell:Who can get the exemption?To qualify for a manufacturing exemption, the taxpayer must manufacture, fabricate or process tangible personal property for sale; repair tangible personal property from their own inventory for sale (rebuilders); or repair tangible personal property from their own inventory for rental.The manufacturing exemption does not extend to contractors, persons who repair property belonging to others and service providers (such as data processors and nonresidential remodelers) even when they manufacture tangible personal property for use in performing their services. Separately stating manufactured repair parts on a customer's invoice does not make the taxpayer a manufacturer eligible for this exemption.What is exempt?The manufacturing exemption applies to machinery or equipment that causes a physical or chemical change in a product in order to make it saleable. The manufacturing process generally begins with the first activity that changes raw materials or ingredients and ends with the packaging of the tangible personal property as it will be sold.The Texas version is one page and takes just a mintue to fill out. Keep in mind it does not cover hand tools (in NY it does ) and you can always call them and double check. For those running fab shops they should really look into it as it can save a substantial amount of money, especially if you are just starting out with lots of purchases. And if you have noticed a lot of out of state companies are now charging sales tax....Amazon being the biggest one. So it's only a matter of time before that loophole goes out the window. "Anybody can talk $h!t behind a monitor, I let the quality of my work speak for itself"Lincoln Square Wave 255 and 355 Tig Lincoln 255 Power-Mig w/ spool gun Koike 5 x 10 CNC plasma Hyd-Mech DM-10 bandsaw Ineco QB-76 NC tube bender
Reply:Coupe, in my state of WA, the sales tax exemption doesn't apply to machinery, tools, shop supplies, etc, unless they get resold to a customer.  Though I have not tried it, I don't see why we, as business owners, shouldn't be able to buy consumeables with no tax, since that material is getting used for, and put into the products we produce.  -AaronJet 17.5" Drill Press1942 South Bend 16x84 Lathe1980s Miller 320A / BP --- 2013 Power Mig 2562012 Jet 7x12 Horizontal BandsawVictor O/A Setup
Reply:Originally Posted by rabidchimpCoupe, in my state of WA, the sales tax exemption doesn't apply to machinery, tools, shop supplies, etc, unless they get resold to a customer.  Though I have not tried it, I don't see why we, as business owners, shouldn't be able to buy consumeables with no tax, since that material is getting used for, and put into the products we produce.  -Aaron