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I'm building a drag grader to use behind my tractor and have a question regarding how best to accomplish a weld.The weld in question is where the lower 3 point plates attach to the cross bar (see attached).The plates are 1/2" 4"x5" and weld on to a 1/4" plate that will then weld to the crossbar.  Cross bar is 3 stacked and welded 3x3 3/16 tube.  1/4" backer is to spread the load out over the lighter tube.I'm using a Lincoln 175 with .045 NR212 wire.  I will bevel the knife plates per dwg.  Should I put the plate tight to the "backer" plate and weld or stand it off a 32nd or so?  I plan on doing preheat,  multi pass and grind in between.This the heaviest material I have welded with this machine. Attached Images
Reply:I'd use a root opening of about 1/16 to 1/8".  Grind the back side of the first pass to ensure no slag is trapped when you weld the 2nd pass.Benson's Mobile Welding - Dayton, OH metro area - AWS Certified Welding Inspector
Reply:Originally Posted by A_DAB_will_doI'd use a root opening of about 1/16 to 1/8".  Grind the back side of the first pass to ensure no slag is trapped when you weld the 2nd pass.
Reply:http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php...1&d=1244521219Since you asked only for 'procedure'--my comments are somewhat out of line,however, presumably you want this 'hell for strong'.-the 1/4" doubler should span the entire stackup height of your 3x3 tubes--IOW 9"-the welds on the doubler plates should only be on the top and bottom-BLUE LINES, the YELLOW edges do not get welded--unless you wish to concentrate stress on those 3x3's and shear thru their tube walls. (Way too many project postersapparently don't comprehend the mechanics of transfering loads along beams-by not interrupting that load translation.)-putting plug welds on the hidden edges of the stacked 3x3's to anchor the central section of the 1/4" doubler would be appropriate as wellThe GREEN CIRCLES simply raise the flag that these connections need doublers,extended gussets, etc. .....and once again, the line of welding should be in line with the load---never across it (perpendicular). You don't indicate what material the forks are.The exceptions to fully welding doubler plates, gussets, etc.-are correctly seen, when the deformation and shear strength of the assembly is deemed robust enough to tolerate the design load. Attached ImagesBlackbird
Reply:Is this 3 point hitch?An alternative way I would do it would be a ram to adjust height, come of the hitch of the tractor(drawbar) into a Y then straighten down the sides and wheels on both sides with a grader blade (old) for a scraper, this way you would be able to do slopes.By the diagram you suggest it will not be strong enough should you encounter tough parts.We have an old 1927 JD grade so I have had some experience, however it was horsedrawn then converted to tractor and the blade lenghthened.
Reply:Can't tell from your drawing, but make sure your top link geometry is correct.  I believe the standard for CAT 2 is in the 18 inch range between the lift pin and top link pin..  Close will do, but if you get too short, you will not be able to pick up the back of the implement.
Reply:Thanks for all the tips.  The drawing was just a rough depiction of the final product.  Below is a rough layup of the grader.  The top link posts actually go in front of the cross bar and have a extended plate across the bottom of the crossbar and will be gusseted at the top. The cross bar which in this picture currently shows as short but will extend to the end of the side plates and will have an end cap that extends down the side of the side plates for additional torque reaction stiffening.  There's also a plate at the front extending down the side plates. Finally I will triangulate the cross bar with some angles to transfer additional stress off the crossbar connections.My welding isn't that good, so I'm "over engineering" all the connections.Incidently, the "cutters" (4x4 3/8 triangulated with a 1/4 bottom plate) will be adjustable from a 1" positive cut to a negative 1/2" for smoothing. Attached Images
Reply:I've had good luck using a 3 pass built up fillet for your application.  Do your main passes, then finish off the ends by grinding a small "v" and filling it.The load has to be transfered to the shoulders of the tubing.  That means the stretcher/backer plate has to be as wide as one section of the stacked tubing and meet the shoulders.  The lift eyes should be as wide as the section of tubing also.Also you might want to consider a lift pin arrangement instead of the double eye thing you're making.  It's a lot easier to hook up the implement with a lift pin.  Less fighting with lift arm height and alignment.  Only time I use the eye arrangement  is for the top link connection because it's easy to align. Attached ImagesLast edited by farmersamm; 06-09-2009 at 12:39 PM.Reason: extra word"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Interesting, we're anxious to see the build. Originally Posted by orezok...The drawing was just a rough depiction of the final product.  ...The top link posts actually go in front of the cross bar and have a extended plate across the bottom of the crossbar and will be gusseted at the top. The cross bar which in this picture currently shows as short but will extend to the end of the side plates and will have an end cap that extends down the side of the side plates for additional torque reaction stiffening.  There's also a plate at the front extending down the side plates. Finally I will triangulate the cross bar with some angles to transfer additional stress off the crossbar connections.
Reply:[QUOTE=denrep;288483]Interesting, we're anxious to see the build.I feel that triple stacked tubes would do little to add strength, the material would be better used otherwise. I triple stacked the tubes because they are only 3x3  3/16 and I have a bunch of them.  The additional weight is also an assetThe angle brace's anchor loads could be more evemly distributed by raising the angle brace and dropping one leg over the edge. One leg of the angle could be welded to the ski's side and one to the top; same with the other end which attaches to the upright.That's doableDon't forget that a drag works best when floating with weight on it; you  will probably need to figure out a way to stack some sort of weight on the drag, even if it's rocks or dirt in a pan. If you notice the pipe fitting on the side pans  They are hollow and designed to hold water (about an additional 100# or if that isn't enough filled with sand for 200#. The drag as designed will weigh about 450# dry. About half the roads I need to maintain are Mojave concrete (the dirt gets so hard in summer that you can't drive a steel stake in and half loose blow sand)  I'm hoping the variable weight will work for both. Also a drag should be able to -without damage- override any immovable object which may be encountered.The purpose for the double upper link posts in the front is to put a 3/4" bolt through both posts and then run the hydraulic top link cylinder ram over it.  Put a second pin in the end of the ram.  This allows the ram to be extended until the top link "floats" but allow me to lift the drag by retracting the ram until the pin hits the posts.More pictures to follow as progress is made.
Reply:Pretty much stayed outta this because I'm not really sure what you're building.  I never built anything like this before, so my advice is like crap.Alfred is one smart cookie, and worth listening to.I'm not particularly sure that the mass of metal is gonna give you what you need.  The entire 3pt arrangement could be built with less metal, and the weight of the water in the tanks should be adequate.I think the thing that holds most implements in the ground is the "moldboard" effect.  The downward angle of the cutting edge forces the implement into the ground, and  holds it there.  A curved edge has the weight of the ground pressing down on it, and holding it in place.  It cuts, then has the weight of the earth focing down on top of the curve.The tanks are a great idea.  Ballist is good!!!!!!!Seeing what you're building, and not having the experience of building a like tool, I'm at a loss.  I can't really, with all honesty, comment on the design.  I simply don't have the first hand experience to give any solid advice beyond what I've given.Clarence is tapping on my shoulder, making sure I put up a good honest post.Lil'  dude had pretty big teeth, and is very convincing  RUFF"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Gotta pry him away from in front of the air conditioner to get any kind of meaningful conversation with the lil' dudeGuy's turnin' into a proper little Tu@d Bird!!!!!!Decadant little left wing socialist commy pup just wants to sit in the kitchen close to the acBTW................. Do Not try to put a chair on that end of the table.  IT'S HIS END Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:What orezok is building here is more akin to a float. A float on skids.  It won't making any massive cuts in raw soil or rock. It'll accumulate loose soil where there is an excess and spill it in low spots and voids. Wear is a bigger issue than strength, but you have to work with what you got sometimes.
Reply:Anybody looking, ........ the penetration of the 7018 is fantastic on DC, and will give you the confidence to hang more weight on a weld than you thought you could previously.I'm a recent convert (and a long time preeeeevert)Penetration is more than long drawn out sighs in the boudoirOk, I'm done"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Sandy, I'm sort of confused I guess.I keep thinking along the lines of a box blade.I suppose you don't need rippers, and a heavy blade, when dealing with loose material.Mojave maybe means sand, and lot's of it"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:farmersamm - heres a short youtube video of a commercial built unit and what it's supposed to do.[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XypQQvmvI3s[/ame]
Reply:I used to sell the dura grader and the road boss.  Both work well. However,  I will tell you unless you angle both blades around a 20 degree angle, in the same direction, you will be largely wasting your time if you are serious about road maintenance.  Unangled blades will not fill pot holes as well.   Plus, angled blades seem to pull easier.  Also, the chatter and bounce worse without biting in.  They don't, in my experience level any better than the angled ones either.Last edited by lugweld; 06-10-2009 at 10:55 AM.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I think the video was really informative.  Thanks.I'm surprised a load of dirt will stay inside the box as long as it seems to.  You'd think the blades, as short as they are, would undercut it and leave it behind in short order.Denrep is on the right track with his idea to transfer the load on the toplink to the outer frame of the grader.  It will be sturdier that way.I think the bulk of the pulling stress will be on the bottom lift arms.  Your double eye arrangement is probably better than a lift pin like I use.  You'll notice that I reinforce the lift pin area with a gusset to transfer the load to the other side of the tubing, and to prevent the steel from bending where the pin is mounted through it.Your design will be a little harder to hook up (maybe not), but I think it's stronger for pulling.I hope you'll give serious thought to the 3 pass built up fillet.  It's exceptionally strong.  I believe it's stronger than the beveled T .  My experience has been that the built up weld resists side to side bending best.  It's a little more added side support at the base of the piece of plateI always figure in redundancy in my work.  With a built up weld on either side of a piece of 3" plate, you got 18" of weld there.  It might be overkill, but it seems to work pretty well.  The additional bead on the base plate is also insurance against pullout.I've been tempted to use lower amounts of weld now that I've switched entirely to 7018, but I still can't always bring myself to break from old habits.  A shear load definitely, but a pure stress/tension load probably not.  I'm like an old dog that likes to sleep in the same spot all his lifeBesides, it's doggone embarassing to be boppin' down the road, and one of the mounts tears out.  Something like that goes a long way in lowering your esteem in the neighborhood"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Here is what he is building.  Good catch that the blades need to be angled.
Reply:Yes absolutely the blade needs to be angled but we may be trying to overthink what he is wishing to use this for after all it is three point hitch mounted which is a limitation in it self. Personally I would design a unit like the one MX727 shows but with moleboard at the back and some skids or wheels to even out the spread.I don't use three point hitch, is that initial design floating - so their would be no way of forcing the unit down for more scrapping pressure without something to cut uneven ground.If you don't angle the blade any rock you hit will cause the unit to raise leaving a long bump.Some things to think thru...Last edited by pistolnoon; 06-12-2009 at 03:18 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by pistolnoonYes absolutely the blade needs to be angled but we may be trying to overthink what he is wishing to use this for after all it is three point hitch mounted which is a limitation in it self. Personally I would design a unit like the one MX727 shows but with moleboard at the back and some skids or wheels to even out the spread.I don't use three point hitch, is that initial design floating - so their would be no way of forcing the unit down for more scrapping pressure without something to cut uneven ground.If you don't angle the blade any rock you hit will cause the unit to raise leaving a long bump.Some things to think thru...