Amish Buggy Wheels

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I've been asked by an Amish friend to weld the tire (wheel rim) to a buggy.  It broke as they attempted to heat shrink it to the wheel.  I will grind a ''v'' and weld inside and out but wonder what tensile strength rod to use.  Thinking it is a mild steel item, but not sure.  Should I heat the area first  to lessen the impact?  Anyone have experience with this?......and Thank You.
Reply:Huh...... why don't you just tell your friend to go an get a blacksmith to weld it in the forge with coke fire and hammer in the "old fashioned" way without enjoying the evil modern electric mig/stick/Tig welding methods they abhor.I am at a loss to understand how convoluted those people's thinking can get when they need the uses of the tools and expertise we the modern world have come to expect, yet at the same time look down their noses at our (modern man) achievements.It's good to go and live at peace with the natural world of Nature and the environment in harmony, but at the same time those that just pay lip service to the natural World when they need it are hypocrites when they want to enjoy the joys of the progressive World when the World they live in fails them.Tell your freind to put his money where his mouth is and go and live according to his life style practices and let the real World progress as it will.....we all get to Heaven one way or another no matter what we believe in, for it is written that even the Prodigal son was loved by his father.Ian.
Reply:Wow..I guess everyone has an opinion.  He asked for welding advice not what you think of a culture.  Did you miss the part where he is trying to help a friend.I would weld it as you suggest with 7018, grind it flat on all sides then after it cools slowly re heat with a torch until you see the steel start to blue then let it cool.  I would stay away form 6010 or 6011.If he is a friend treat him and charge him as friends would do.DanLast edited by DanD78; 08-11-2012 at 06:58 AM.Reason: pizzed off
Reply:Steel tires are normally "shrunk on" the wheel using fairly unique and esoteric blacksmithing methods, and if somebody goes stick welding it, it seems to me they're likely to change the tire's size, making it either too small or too large for the wheel...which probably ain't easy to fix.Why doesn't the guy take it to his blacksmith like they normally do? Did they get into some kind of drug deal dispute?
Reply:Dan........Thanks for the good advice; that's what I was looking for.Kelvin, Like you said,  they can shrink it and the process he explained is interesting and crafty, but he told me not to make it smaller.   These people just moved into the area and evidently left their blacksmith back in Ohio.  Their way of thinking is new and interesting to me; albeit uncommon, but the baked goods they bestowed upon me is worth a little one inch weld job.  I just want to do it right.Ian.............. I haven't known these people long enough to judge them and I don't even intend to do so down the road.  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt as to "what they believe in" and not try to determine whether it is they or I who are the Prodigal Sons.  I will expect to enjoy the same heaven as they do, not based on our choice of worldly or menial skills and preferences, but based on our mutual reverence for God and man.  "Whatsoever ye do, do it as unto the Lord".  In that light, I'm going to try to fix my first buggy wheel and enjoy some more cinnamon rolls. Thanks guys for the replies. Peace !Howard
Reply:My Grandfather was a wagonmaker/wheelwright. I would see him work on our summer visits. From what I remember and from what I have read. You can weld it,but you still have  to go through the process of heating the whole steel ring  till it is cherry red. Then slip it on the wooden wheel. Immeditely pour water on it to cool it.You need to measure the OD of the wood wheel and the ID of the steel wheel.The same process of installing the Ring gear on a fly wheel.The measurement of the the steel ring should be less than the wooden wheel. You just need to find out what the differece should be. Goggle wheelwrights, there is one guy out from Idaho that can probally help you.
Reply:Forgot to tell you, wood wheel needs to be dry when you measure and when you install ring. When you get the wood wheel wet it expands. When you cool down steel ring it shrinks. That is what makes the two stay together.
Reply:How much smaller is just right? I'd think that with a small gap the weld bead shrinkage would pull it up fairly tight."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:Very true Howard, just commenting on the fact that some people are at odds with the World and still need the "modern" world to bail them out.......I'd have probably helped them too without charge, no point in being a tight lipped sore arse when it comes to someone in need, but it irks me to see people shunning technology simply for the sake of being different and impinging on society when it suits them.As a matter of interest, they could have modernised (shock horror) their mode of transport by doing as other rural communities do all around the World and use axles and wheels with rubber tyres from scrapped cars.BTW, if they couldn't shrink that tyre on without it breaking, then it was because of a number of reasons, firstly you said it broke when they were "attempting" to shrink it to the wheel....it was able to actualy get on the wheel but in the course of contraction it broke because the fit was too tight.The next couple of reasons would have to be that if it was a new unworn tyre (forged) it had a thin spot and it broke there, or if it was an old tyre it was too thin all round from wear.Either way the fit, like as in press fits for steel and brass bushes has to be specific for each piece of material, either for the bush or the bore in the part, enough to hold the part without excessive press fit, IE, as the Chinese gentle man in the funny hat said, "muchee plentee squeezy, and no plenty bustee".The weld would have to be a butt weld, which would mean the weld zone could not be a different material to the parent metal,  When it's heated for expansion to fit it on and then cooled, the resulting contraction will be at the joint.....that calls for a Tig type weld where the parent metal is welded to the same metal at the weld zone, allowing for the fact that you are working with unknown material characterisics.....adding mild steel to a (supposed) tougher carbon content steel is just asking for the weld to fail in the same place.Suggesting that the weld zone be heated and cooled to a blue colour is nonsense...you need to heat steel with a carbon content high enough to change it's status, that is, to a red heat and quench it to harden it, THEN reheat it to draw the temper by observing the colours which for spring steel is blue.Attempting to do that in a spot zone will add to your woes.I don't know the "technology" for shrinking steel bands to wood, but I have heard the phrase in a song by Johnny Cash that went something like..... "watered my wheels to tighten them down, so she'll be fine come pickin' time".which suggest that the wheel in question had the tyre fitted too tight and when it was wetted with water the wood swelled too much and it broke the steel band.I've seen picture of old wagons that had been abandoned when they were too old to be used and the one thing that sticks out is the steel bands on the wheels hanging off when the wood dried out in the sun.BTW, you can increase or decrease the circunference of a steel band in the forging process by "fitting" it to the wheel, but it requires skill learned in that process to get the fit right, not for a nooby to the trade of wagon wheels or forging.Ian.
Reply:I do a lot of welding for the Amish in my area, only wish most people were as easy to deal with. Not many people in our world that would tell you that you miss figured their ticket and shorted yourself one hour last time you were there, when you go back to do some welding a month later. I offered to cut the hour in half as they cought the mistake and I never did, but that would not fly, they insisted they  pay the full hour, no talking about it.Ok on to the wagon tire. I weld quite a few of them that break. I pre heat, V it out weld with 7018 then grind in from the backside till I get to the bottom of my first weld and then weld the back side, grind smooth and let cool slowly.And they are some verry hard metal.Trailblazer 302Hobart Stickmate AC/DCLincoln SP 135 TSmith torchSpoolmatic 30A
Reply:Hi all, I would have thought that the weld repair by a blacksmith would have been an overlap and hammer weld so that the material was bonded within itself and then forged further to re-expand it .....then the rim would have to be applied to the wheel and tested by experience to judge the fit before heating it for final fitting.The fact that it is fitted by being heated to red heat means it isn't high carbon steel, (so welding should not be a problem) or that would cause mighty problems when the band was cooled by the water process.to shrink it.Another thing, it is possible that when wheels with steel bands on wooden wheels run on dirt roads they work OK, but if they run on hardened roads, IE tarmac or concrete they will roll and the steel bands would get bigger by the relatively soft steel being rolled out like pastry from the hard surface contact so making them loose and falling off.....does this frequently happen due to modern road material?......Amish roads would need to be dirt anyway to cater for their beliefs.I expect the ancient Romans, Egyptians and Assyrians had bronze wheel bands on their chariot wheels, because they, especially the Romans, ran on roads made from stone blocks....must have been a nightmare to fit bronze wheel bands. Ian.
Reply:Even the wagon wheel is technology, it is better technology that what we had before the wheel was invented. Automobiles is what put my Grandfather out of business. Even the wheel went through several different technological changes.
Reply:The ones I have worked on are about 1 3/4 inch wide and about 40" in diameter and they have small counter sunk head bolts that go through tire and the wooden wheel. They use these on their buggy's and run them on dirt as well as blacktop roads so they have to be fairly hard as to not wear when there on paved roads.They are also a slight shrink fit.Trailblazer 302Hobart Stickmate AC/DCLincoln SP 135 TSmith torchSpoolmatic 30A
Reply:In the past I helped my Uncle repair wagons. He worked with people that knew and helped the Amish and others. The knewer Amish buggies have rubber covered wheels easier on roads and horses less friction. But older wagons still have  iron covered wheels. A wheelwright uses a circle of oak or hardwood coals to heat iron up evenly. Then lays dry wheel on side with blocks of rock or concrete at edges  2 people pick up iron drop on wheel hit with water then let all dry  ring shrinks to fit. If still loose use wedges of hard wood between fellons to tighten up. Full days work. If spokes or fellons crack or break can get new ones in Illinois  ask a Yoder they can get them.Have fun  You will learn alot of things that your grand and great grand parents knew.I did and met alot of good people along the way.
Reply:Originally Posted by [email protected] knewer Amish buggies have rubber covered wheels easier on roads and horses less friction.
Reply:Originally Posted by puddytatA firstly you said it broke when they were "attempting" to shrink it to the wheel....it was able to actualy get on the wheel but in the course of contraction it broke because the fit was too tight.