Tig arc wander

admin

Been having this problem off and on for sometime now and I just cant figure it out.  Occasionally when striking an arc everything goes haywire for a few moments.  The arc sputters, jumps around the material and seems to come off the tungsten from almost inside the cup, or just outside.  Then suddenly it quiets down and everything runs just like it should.  Sometimes it will even hold a solid arc with the arc jumping from up near the cup onto the material, nothing down at the point at all.Ive checked everything, no issues I can find.  It happens with no rhyme or reason that I can detect, and the only thing that occasionally seems to help it romping on the pedal right at the start.  Then without changing any settings, or even moving from my seat it will work fine for the rest of the day, or for an hour.Machine is 250 Syncrowave ,tungsten is 3/32 red sharpened correctly, amps anywhere from 50-150.  Gas lens, #7 cup, collet all in good shape, all lines are secure.  HF works, preflow works, does it on mild steel and ss.  Good ground, and the tip is close enough to the material that it should jump when I strike.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Tungsten works best when hot.  Its still cold and maybe freshly sharpened?David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:No, happens regardless if its fresh sharpened or after welding.  Usually it happens after ive been welding for a while.  Resharpening doesnt fix it either.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Sounds like "internal arcing". I don't know what causes it, but it will destroy your torch eventually. I had the same problem for a short period. Someone told me to disassemble my torch and make sure everything was clean, or replace all the components with new ones. I replaced my collet, collet body, cleaned up everything else & haven't had it happen again. To this day it still bugs me. Because I don't know what exactly caused it."SOUTHPAW" A wise person learns from another persons mistakes;A smart person learns from their own mistakes;But, a stupid person.............never learns.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88Been having this problem off and on for sometime now and I just cant figure it out.  Occasionally when striking an arc everything goes haywire for a few moments.  The arc sputters, jumps around the material and seems to come off the tungsten from almost inside the cup, or just outside.  Then suddenly it quiets down and everything runs just like it should.  Sometimes it will even hold a solid arc with the arc jumping from up near the cup onto the material, nothing down at the point at all.Ive checked everything, no issues I can find.  It happens with no rhyme or reason that I can detect, and the only thing that occasionally seems to help it romping on the pedal right at the start.  Then without changing any settings, or even moving from my seat it will work fine for the rest of the day, or for an hour.Machine is 250 Syncrowave ,tungsten is 3/32 red sharpened correctly, amps anywhere from 50-150.  Gas lens, #7 cup, collet all in good shape, all lines are secure.  HF works, preflow works, does it on mild steel and ss.  Good ground, and the tip is close enough to the material that it should jump when I strike.
Reply:Is this a water cooled torch? Any chance of condensation within the cup due to high humidity and the torch head being much colder than ambient?
Reply:Originally Posted by dave powelsonThe cleanliness of the ground clamp (minimum resistance) and just how/what the clamp iscurrently grounded on...is another thing to check.
Reply:Try unhooking the ground clamp once and striking an arc just to see if that resembles what you are experiencing.
Reply:If your material isnt grounded, nothing happens.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2Is this a water cooled torch? Any chance of condensation within the cup due to high humidity and the torch head being much colder than ambient?
Reply:It is, a wp-20. I kind of see where your going with this, but what exactly do you mean? I think if the humidity was that high I would have porosity problems or tungsten contamination, which I dont.
Reply:I see what your saying.  There might be a little moisture in the cup if im not welding for a while because its usually pretty humid around here.  But usually im under the hood at least 4-5 hours in an 8 hour day so I doubt that much is building up when im not welding.And yes, it will continue to do it numerous times without changing anything,  Hell it does it even when I move the piece around or change the tungsten.  Or sometimes it goes away.  I really have found no way what so ever to predict it, but I can usually count on it happening for 2-3 1 min spurts throughout the day.On a side note, something else was acting up this saturday as well.  I was welding and sometimes when i went to strike an arc I could hear the HF buzzing but no actual current.  I would sit there pedal down, on a grounded piece and the arc wouldnt start.  Then after a few seconds it came on and all was well.  This only went on for a few min then it hasn't happened since.Its been a bad past few days for the blue machines.  Last week our 180 syncrowave decided it didnt like giving me amp control while on the stick setting, so I had to stick weld a trailer winch on using the stinger and a foot pedal.  Ill say this, HF welding with 6010 is pretty cool.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:You might check the HF contacts in the machine; they do need adjusting occasionally.Again, that is just a guess.
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2You might check the HF contacts in the machine; they do need adjusting occasionally.Again, that is just a guess.
Reply:sn0border,Couple of potential problems here.Grind of the tungsten can be a problem.  Are you using a "fine" enough wheel to minimize the grind marks left by the stone.  I use a diamond wheel and that really seems to help focus the arc with a Sync 250.The other thing is I suspect you have a ground problem.  Using the aluminum backer (to protect the SS may be causing part of the problem.I have my welding table hard connected to the work lead also.  However, I also use a short length of 4ga welding cable and a small ground clamp to attach directly to my workpiece.  With your work connection being 8' away from the welding area, this short work clamp might help your situation.When welding aluminum on my table, I'll occasionally notice arc burns on the side in contact with the table, indicating an unreliable ground.  Since using the short work lead attached directly to the workpiece, I haven't had a problem at all.I'd also recommend swapping out your torch parts (cup, gas lens, collet) when switching from aluminum to steel.  Sometimes the aluminum oxides that form in the cup can cause arcing when welding in DC.Get a good grind on the tungsten, get a better work connection, and swap out the torch parts for different metals, and I think your problems will go away.Also, in DC welding, use the smallest tungsten that will handle the amps.  Too large a tungsten for the job at hand can cause arc wander.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:I dont think the grind is the problem.  Its a 60 grit wheel, but thats what we've used for years, and this doesnt occur very often.  On the off chance that it was part of the problem I have used finer wheels in the past but it didnt help.  Im getting some ceriated tungsten in the new few days for some aluminum, but ill try it out on DC and see if it helps.  As for going to a smaller size, that also poses an issue.  Its common for me to be welding something at 60-80 amps then have to do something at 150-200 then back to 80-100 within the course of an hour.  3/32 makes the most sense, and should cause this problem.I doubt the ground is an issue, I was checking that out today.  I cleaned off the aluminum plate and the steel surface underneath till they were shiny, and also cleaned up the steel where the clamp is along with the contact points.  When it started acting up today I tried striking an arc on the table itself, same result.  Grounding to the workpiece just isnt practical, I work with .065 tubing and am constantly repositioning or rolling it as I weld.  Changing the ground every 10 seconds would be very counter productive.I considered the aluminum oxide buildup in the past so I switched out the cup to a new one, same result.  Gas lens is clean, so I dont seem a reason to change that out.  Its weird though because sometimes it almost seems like its trying to arc to the cup. And that would make more sense is somehow I was getting shocked through a crack in the torch body, but im not.  And even then, the path of least resistance is onto But again, for the better part of today it worked fine, then it went nuts for 15 min or so, then back to normal for the rest of the day.  Once I was tacking on a NPT coupling and the arc jumped out and hit my glove, toasted my pointer finger.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Its time to do something......You can turn on the hi freq when its dark and look for arcs along the cable and in the torch.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88  I work ontop of a piece of aluminum so not to damage the SS pieces I work with.
Reply:Problem has gotten worse the past few days, usually it lasts all day long now.  Its also giving me issues on low amp work (30 amps or less) with arc wander, bad.  I noticed with the piece of 3/32 red I am using a very small ball forms on the end sometimes, which is when I experience the bulk of the problems.  Switching to ceriated cures most of these, but I still have issues with startup sometimes.I gapped the HF contacts, cleaned all the ground points and even had the same problem with it arcing into the cup welding inches away from the ground.And pulse with low amp background, forget it.  Its almost to erratic to weld with.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:If you have a standard electrode holder, you might try stick welding using the same parameters and see how that works. It still sounds like a ground problem, but I'm wondering if the current output might me erratic, rather than the ground 'return'.If stick welding with the std. holder is normal, next you might try burning a 3/32" electrode in the WP20 (in place of the tungsten) to see if the cable is carrying the current properly. The conductor inside the water  return line carries the power to the torch; if that is falling apart, the high resistance should affect the  bead you can run. BTW, to answer an earlier (but apparently non-applicable) question:Asked by Dave Powelson: Originally Posted by Oldiron2   Is this a water cooled torch? Any chance of condensation within the cup due to high humidity and the torch head being much colder than ambient?
Reply:Originally Posted by Oldiron2If you have a standard electrode holder, you might try stick welding using the same parameters and see how that works. It still sounds like a ground problem, but I'm wondering if the current output might me erratic, rather than the ground 'return'.If stick welding with the std. holder is normal, next you might try burning a 3/32" electrode in the WP20 (in place of the tungsten) to see if the cable is carrying the current properly. The conductor inside the water  return line carries the power to the torch; if that is falling apart, the high resistance should affect the  bead you can run.
Reply:Sno,Your HF may be worn out.  I've seen it on old synchros...Either that or your HF circuit is getting weak.  I bet on AC with aluminum it won't work well at all...Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:I have an old Sycrowave that will do something like that  if I have the HF up to high. Course that is mainly on Alu. Also if I let start my arc at too large a distance but I am sure that is not your problem. How far out is your stick out...grasping at straws here... I really think something is going on with your box......Lincoln Tombstone 225 A/C Steel StickerOld Victor O2/Acetylene setupMiller Syncrowave 250 Tig/PC-300 PulserMiller Millermatic 212 Mig HTP Invertatig 201 Giant Teck D50 Plasma cutterLots of HF grinders
Reply:Have someone watch the argon flow meter while you are welding.   Make sure that the ball is steady as a rock.   Are you welding in any type of air movement.   With low argon flow and a slight breze the argon can wander and the arc will follow.keith The older the boys, the more expensive the TOYS!!Previous owned;Linde 300 Amp welderMiller Gas drv welder, Tumbstone,Dayton Miller ac to dc converter,High frequency unitLongevity LS60PCurrrently owned;Longevity WeldAll 200PI
Reply:Sn0,I've been using Sync 250's for more years than I care to think about.Virtually every time I've encountered a similar situation, it's due to the work lead.Eight feet away on a table is a long ways for a low amps to travel.As has been mentioned, try disconnecting your work lead and try to strike an arc.  I suspect you may get HF arcing where the HF is dancing all over the place.The closer the work lead to the welding, the less chance you have for a bad connection.Do you use a "welding finger" to "help" with the work connection.  I use one quite frequently.As I mentioned before, I have a short length of 4 ga wire attached to the connection point of my work lead to the table.  On the end of this short length of cable, I use a 200A clamp.  I'll either attach the clamp directly to the workpiece or attach the clamp to the "welding finger".PS.  For the guys who don't know what a "welding finger" is, it's simply a piece of 1/2" round rod.  Easy to make.  Grind a point on one end of a rod about 18" long.  Bend the sharpened end about 90 deg about 2" back from the tip.  On the other end weld a set of legs on (I just made 2 90 deg bends in about a 6" piece of the same 1/2" rod).  The finger serves a dual purpose.  Helps hold the workpiece in positon without clamping, and helps to establish a work connection.  Virtually eliminates arcing on the backside of the material where it touches the worktable (especially helpful with aluminum).Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.Everyone has really good advice here. My two cents: take off the back of the machine once a year, and blow it out.
Reply:Originally Posted by SundownIII...
Reply:Hey Sn0,Not trying to give you a hard time.Know you'd mentioned that it didn't seem to matter where you were on the table.As I had indicated, most of my experience with arc wander was due to the work lead connection.  You had mentioned that you use an aluminum backing plate to keep from scratching the SS.  Little things like oxides on the aluminum will disrupt the electric flow, especially at low amps.That's why I suggested trying the welding finger.  I use one all the time.  If I try to weld aluminum directly on my table, I'll notice arc burns on the backside of the aluminum that was in contact with the table.  The finger eliminates that.  Often times, just to be safe, I'll attach my short work lead (hardwired to the welding table) directly to the welding finger.Your comment about "stomping the pedal" and then it works fine, would also be grounds for a work connection.  Sorta like rubbing your work clamp to get a better connection.Just some thoughts.Good luck at school.  Think you'd mentioned that they had a few Dynasty's there.  Get your hands on one and give it a workout.  Let me know what you think.  Since my 200 showed up, the Sync 250 has been getting a bit of a vacation.  Don't think I've lit her up but twice in the last three weeks.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Originally Posted by maartyEveryone has really good advice here. My two cents: take off the back of the machine once a year, and blow it out.
Reply:Originally Posted by gordfraserThe book on my inverter says to "not blow it out" as this can spread metal debris through the delicate electrics.It recommends that you vacuum it once a year or more if you have it in a dirty environment.
Reply:is that a little doubt i hear maarty?Sorry but the file is 2 bigheres a copy n paste from the AM300 AC/DC bible:page 35"7 ROUTINE MAINTENANCE7 – 1ROUTINE MAINTENANCEThe only routine maintenance required for thepower supply is a thorough cleaning and inspection,with the frequency depending on the usageand the operating environment.WARNINGDisconnect primary power at the source beforeopening the enclosure. Wait at least two minutesbefore opening the enclosure to allow the primarycapacitors to discharge.To clean the unit, open the enclosure (refer toto Section 11.1.1, "Opening the Enclosure") anduse a vacuum cleaner to remove any accumulateddirt and dust. The unit should also be wiped clean,if necessary; with solvents that are recommendedfor cleaning electrical apparatus.CAUTIONDo not blow air into the power supply during cleaning.Blowing air into the unit can cause metal particlesto interfere with sensitive electricalcomponents and cause damage to the unit."G
Reply:I changed the cord on mine for a longer one when i got it.WOWno wasted space in there...all electric boards.Made my laptop look very insufficient G
Reply:Ok Gord,Thanks for the update. It explains why you suck, and I blow. Maybe I too should suck. Just kidding.It makes sense. Maybe I have been hurting welding machines. Say it ain't so.