Millermatic Diversion 165 anyone ?

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Hello all,Well after all the good advice I've decided to go 'TIG' instead of MIG and was wondering if anyone has had experience with the MM Diversion 165 and / or whether it might be suitable for my needs.Most of my stuff is of the following materials;20 gauge to 3/16" steel and stainless sheet.20 gauge to 1/8" Aluminum22 gauge to 1/8" Copper and Brass / BronzeSquare and round stock in both copper, stainless and mild steel.None of this stuff would be load bearing or stressed in any way as it would be mostly Ornamental in Nature (mostly "Tacked in Place").  At best, I might like to do a small metal Gate or two and some small metal repair jobs on my boat trailer and stuff as well....Cheers,/Jman...
Reply:No one used this machine ?  Seriously ?
Reply:I bought one in January and really like it.  I also have a couple of Synchrowaves (250 and 350).  We own an aluminum foundry.  The larger machines were bought to plug holes in castings.  The holes were there on purpose, to allow sand to get to the internal cavities of the castings.  We've since grown to the point of hiring people to do this welding, so I wanted a TIG machine capable of doing smaller jobs to keep by my work bench.There's been a lot of discussion about the Diversion since it came out.  Not trying to put words in other peoples mouth's, but most seem to be putting the machine down.  It does not have the capability or the flexibility of the larger, more expensive machines.  However, it wasn't meant to.  It is a very simple machine to set up, turn on and start using.  That's the trade-off you'll be faced with: capability and flexibilty vs. simplicity.  For the materials and thicknesses you've listed, it should do a great job.  I've welded 1/4" steel plate and 2" SS pipe with mine so far without problems.  Just so you know, I gave less than $1400 for mine.  If you buy it now, they'll throw in a free cover.  Not a Miller rep., just a Miller user.  That's my two cents.  Hope it helps.TurkeyLincoln Idealarc 250Millermatic 250Miller Synchrowave 250 Miller Synchrowave 350Thermal Arc PlasmaHH140Miller Diversion
Reply:Originally Posted by TurkeyI bought one in January and really like it.  I also have a couple of Synchrowaves (250 and 350).  We own an aluminum foundry.  The larger machines were bought to plug holes in castings.  The holes were there on purpose, to allow sand to get to the internal cavities of the castings.  We've since grown to the point of hiring people to do this welding, so I wanted a TIG machine capable of doing smaller jobs to keep by my work bench.There's been a lot of discussion about the Diversion since it came out.  Not trying to put words in other peoples mouth's, but most seem to be putting the machine down.  It does not have the capability or the flexibility of the larger, more expensive machines.  However, it wasn't meant to.  It is a very simple machine to set up, turn on and start using.  That's the trade-off you'll be faced with: capability and flexibilty vs. simplicity.  For the materials and thicknesses you've listed, it should do a great job.  I've welded 1/4" steel plate and 2" SS pipe with mine so far without problems.  Just so you know, I gave less than $1400 for mine.  If you buy it now, they'll throw in a free cover.  Not a Miller rep., just a Miller user.  That's my two cents.  Hope it helps.
Reply:I've only used it on mild and SS.TurkeyLincoln Idealarc 250Millermatic 250Miller Synchrowave 250 Miller Synchrowave 350Thermal Arc PlasmaHH140Miller Diversion
Reply:As one who has been giving the Diversion serious thought and having 'pestered' Miller on several occasions with questions a couple of things about it that aren't widely known.  The first is the Diversion uses the same totally solid state starting circuit called 'Blue Lightening' that the Dynastys now use. It is tried and true setup having been used for a number of years in the Maxstar Tig welder series. So this means no maintenance and excellent low amp starting with it.   It is also my understanding that the Diversion is based on the Maxstar circuitry for robustness and durability.     The product manager some time back on Miller's forum explained that to keep costs down the stick feature was not offered as there are other controls that have to be changed to match the voltage to amperage curves when stick welding and they felt people looking for a lower cost Tig would either have a buzz box or a Mig setup and not really want or need that feature and leaving it off holds the price down.    It was also explained to me that because an invertor really concentrates the arc-this is similar to more amps on a transformer machine-so in reality it is like it has 20-25% more current that what is dialed in and why the machine can easily do 3/16ths aluminum at a lower rated current level. Others can comment if this is true re invertors. It makes sense re the concentrated arc.    The other point re thicker metal is most of the pros here and on the other forums recommend a good water cooled torch if you are going to be welding much above 150 amps for any period of time. So more expense. It seems like 3/16ths is the limit for air cool setups and they rate the Diversion to that thickness and some owners have confirmed that they will do that thickness with no problem.     Hope this might help
Reply:I've got a 165 and absolutely love it. Far better than lugging around a transformer based machine, and capable of doing anything I can think of. My main purposes are for motorsports fabrication. Not a lot of thick steel being used there.I've only done a couple of pieces of AL with it so far, but I am a very satisfied customer.The only real complaint I have is that the torch/ground cable cannot be changed/removed.The finger control is also a bit awkward at first; you MUST have a thin pair of TIG gloves to have any hope of manipulating it, and it's also very difficult to rapidly back down the current if you need to. I'd definitely suggest getting the foot pedal along with the welder, but it's certainly worth your while to practice with the finger control as well.
Reply:I left out from the post above that I've been working pretty much exclusively with mild steel on it hence my only having done a couple pieces of AL (some cast, some machined).I'll be experiementing more with 4130 here soon, and may get to some more AL pieces this weekend (hopefully).I have not tried copper, but I have some copper scraps I've been meaning to try autogenous welds on.All in all I have about 4 hours of welding time on the machine.Last edited by sillycon; 04-10-2009 at 02:53 PM.
Reply:Hey Good Stuff !Sounds like it's the TICKET for me...  Thanks for all the information !  Oh, and If you guys get around to welding any COPPER pieces, I'd sure like to hear about it and hopefully see some examples.In the meantime, I'm going to order myself up one of these units WITH the foot control so I can compare....Cheers,/Jman...
Reply:Well I pick up my 165 on Monday !  I'm all Pumped about getting this rig.I was curious about the 'consumables' that I would need.What would you suggest that I pick up to play around with ?  (Rods, Tungsten, Gas, etc...)Are there really any gasses better than others ?  My current account is with PRAXAIR if that helps any....  I was thinking about a bottle of straight Argon ?Cheers,/Jman...
Reply:Straight argon is the ONLY way to go for that machine.  3/32 tungsten will get you going until you can try others, but it will do all of what you need to start.  I would avoid pure (green).  Any of the others will work.Have a blast with your new machine.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Originally Posted by jman.  I was thinking about a bottle of straight Argon ?Cheers,/Jman...
Reply:Originally Posted by David RStraight argon is the ONLY way to go for that machine.  3/32 tungsten will get you going until you can try others, but it will do all of what you need to start.  I would avoid pure (green).  Any of the others will work.Have a blast with your new machine.David
Reply:Originally Posted by Broccoli1What did the book that came with the Machine suggest
Reply:It will just mess up the tungsten.Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:I have one and the greens work just fine with it. I am still unsure why everyone says to stay away from greens with inverter units. They strike and arc, they hold that arc, they still ball up, and they do what needs to be done. Personally, I like using reds and/or greens with aluminum (depends on the situation) and golds with MS. I have yet to try anything with SS.I will concur that it is far from an advanced machine. I bought it to test out and help teach a few people how to weld. With fewer options on the unit, there are less things to go wrong. A few notes:- It is a square wave machine- Pre-flow and post-flow are determined by the amperage setting on the unit- The torch comes with an intigrated finger remote amperage control. The foot control is not a standard 14 pin pedal. It is wired via a CAT5 cable to the back of the unit.- DCEN and AC are the only options that can be used with the unit. all cleaning and balance options are regulated within the unit. These settings cannot be changed manually- The torch that comes with the unit is not easily changeable. In order to swap it out for a pencil torch or any other torch for that matter, you must get into the case and hard-wire it.- The Diversion 165 does not offer any SMAW abilities. All in all, it is a GREAT unit for beginners or someone that just wants a TIG for their own. The ratings for sizes are not the best, but with only 165 amps, you can't really expect too much. I have welded 1/4" plate, outside corner joints, with preheat with a single pass, but more heat would always be nice.For what you have told us that you are wanting to do, I see no reason why a Diversion would not work for you. Usually, you can go into the LWS and they will let you play around with it a little before a purchase.Miller TB302Miller Spectrum 1000Miller Spectrum 1251XMT 456 CC/CVCoolmate 4D-74D Dual Wire Feeder2007 Dodge Ram 3500 Chassis Cab (Cummins of course)
Reply:Could someone please let me know what a Millermatic Diversion 165 is.Has Miller introduced a new mig welder?Could the OP be talking about the Diversion 165 AC/DC Tig?Course I could be wrong about the Millermatic Diversion 165 since Fluffy seems to already have one.For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would continue to recommend the use of a pure tungsten in an inverter based machine.  This is in spite of the guidance both major manufacturers (Miller and Lincoln) provide.  Pure tungsten is simply outdated and has been replaced by better alternatives.  For those transformer users who prefer a balled tungsten, a zirconiated tungsten has better current carrying characteristics than pure and the starting characteristics of thoriated.  Miller specifically recommends NOT using the pure tungsten in their inverter machines.Personally, I'd rather follow the manufacturer's recommendations (the same people who spent millions developing the machines) than take the work of some hack who may or may not have a clue what he's talking about.PS.  Guess the OP is still waiting for his Millermatic Diversion 165 to be built, since it's been since the 19th of April when he last posted.Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Once again, it seems like you are putting words in others' mouths. I was not recommending the use of green tungsten. I was merely stating that they can, and are used in inverter machines.Also, can you please provide a link or an article explaining WHY pures are not as widely used in inverter units? All that I can find on the Miller site is that due to increasing use of inverter machines, pure tungsten usage has dropped. Not that it is not recommended, just that the number of people who prefer green tungsten has decreased since the introduction of inverters. As far as the MillerMatic name designation goes, don't be a dousche. Grow up already. We all know what he means, so stop trying to get a jab in wherever you can. Maybe that's why your wife said she doesn't like you.Miller TB302Miller Spectrum 1000Miller Spectrum 1251XMT 456 CC/CVCoolmate 4D-74D Dual Wire Feeder2007 Dodge Ram 3500 Chassis Cab (Cummins of course)
Reply:Here is an article discussing Inverters and Tungsten choicehttp://www.millerwelds.com/education...rticles30.htmlEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Okay, reading through that article, not once was it mentioned that a green tungsten could NOT be used, but that they are not recommended. It seems to be primarily due to their wear characteristics and not being able to hold up as well to square wave technology.This brings me to another point: the article mentions square wave technology and that square wave units are usually inverter units. It seems to me that there are a difference of terminology in this specific thread. No, greens are not the best choice for square wave machines, but it does not directly say that greens cannot be used with inverter machines.All I am saying is that it can be done, and it is done. It will not harm your machine. You will not get the full benefits out of the Diversion if you use a green tungsten, but if that is what you are used to using, it is safe to use.Miller TB302Miller Spectrum 1000Miller Spectrum 1251XMT 456 CC/CVCoolmate 4D-74D Dual Wire Feeder2007 Dodge Ram 3500 Chassis Cab (Cummins of course)
Reply:To be fair Sundown never said that they could not be used eitherEd Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:Originally Posted by fluffyThis brings me to another point: the article mentions square wave technology and that square wave units are usually inverter units. It seems to me that there are a difference of terminology in this specific thread.
Reply:I'll find the reference and post it "on my time".I still like the idea of substituting someone's tungsten with  the same size length of SS.  That freaking works also, but not for long.For additional clarification, inverter machines (Diversion 165) included use an "advanced squarewave waveform".  Later model transformer based machines such as the Syncrowave use a "squarewave waveform".  Many of the newer inverter machines such as the Dynasty 200, 350, 700, offer additional AC Waveforms to include Advanced Squarewave, Soft Squarewave, Sine Wave, and Triangular Wave.I still say comparing a Diversion 165 to something like a TA 185 or Dynasty 200 is like comparing a tricycle to a 16sp mountain bike.  If all you want to do is pedal around the driveway at the house, fine go for the Diversion.  If you want to "ride a bike" over bumps, through streams, and over hills,  buy something with a little more adjustability and learn how to use those features.  Has anyone figured out how the Diversion "knows" how clean the base metal is and therefore is smart enough to set the cleaning cycle?Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Fluffy,Nobody said you can't (that would imply impossible) ride your bicycle across the track in the middle of a NASCAR race, but it's recommended that you don't.Do you need a few more examples?Syncro 250 DX Dynasty 200 DXMM 251 w/30A SG XMT 304 w/714 Feeder & Optima PulserHH187Dialarc 250 AC/DCHypertherm PM 1250Smith, Harris, Victor O/ASmith and Thermco Gas MixersAccess to a full fab shop with CNC Plasma, Water Jet, etc.
Reply:Ahhhh,Yes, I got the Diversion 165 "TIG MACHINE" (is that better ?) late last week.  I just haven't had much time to use it... but I did get a chance to 'Play' with it for an hour here and there..  Wow, I really like TIG !  I can't believe how easy it is to use this thing !  I believe this is 'definitely' the 'welder' I was looking for....  I can easily Tack things into place, join copper pipe and small wire to steels and weld 1/4" steel angle and plate with one pass.  Good enough for me !  I can't wait to experiment with it a bit more.  With any luck I'll have done some stainless, copper and aluminum by this week-end.Cheers,/Jman...jman, I'm considering a new machine for tig.  My background is in stick and mig, so this will be my first time tigging.  How do you like the Diversion 165?  Has it lived up to your expectations?  I'm mostly interested in how well you've done with it on Al.Thanks,Buck
Reply:would like to see some pictures of your attempts on aluminum. i am looking at getting this welder myself for use in automotive applications.