A sad and sorry trailer

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I got a call last week from a customer who's brother had a damaged trailer and wanted to know if it could be fixed I went out to have a look at it and it was a sad and sorry site.. The trailer had been overloaded and the A frame had pulled away from the body of the trailer, only place it was connected was along the face of the trailer.... It took about three hours to beat a few members back into shape, then just used the jack and axle stands to line it all up back up, V out the split so it would weld up properly and clean up the area's so no gunk in the welds, did one side at a time and it pulled itself back into shape which was AWESOME and made my work easier because I didn't need to pull out the torch to heat and bend! Attached ImagesTons of hand tools mostly KingchromeArc welderMiG weldersO/A setupMany grindersair compressorsmany air toolsIndustrial drill pressTwo Forkliftsmany more toolsMan has his will, but woman has her way.- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Reply:More to come Attached ImagesTons of hand tools mostly KingchromeArc welderMiG weldersO/A setupMany grindersair compressorsmany air toolsIndustrial drill pressTwo Forkliftsmany more toolsMan has his will, but woman has her way.- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Reply:all done... The settings were 18.7 volts approx 170 amp and wire speed half way to full bore... Attached ImagesTons of hand tools mostly KingchromeArc welderMiG weldersO/A setupMany grindersair compressorsmany air toolsIndustrial drill pressTwo Forkliftsmany more toolsMan has his will, but woman has her way.- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Reply:I decided to use flux core wire because it would burn in better and the customer wanted it done cheap... I had to clean out a fair few bad welds and then do heaps of spot welds and then join them together with a cap, I wasn't able to get close ups of the final welds as the camera died on me.. There was a ton of rust I couldn't get too so I had to vaporise it, another problem was that the customer didn't want any new materials put on it other than the welds.. When I picked the unit up the A frame was sitting on the ground... I decided to make a call to a mate who is an X-ray weld inspector and just have him check it to make sure the welds were sound.. And to my relief they were all sound minus one that had undercut on it so I had to fix that At the end of the day the work is done the customer was over the moon when I delivered it and I can sleep well tonight knowing my welds won't let go and cause an accident Tons of hand tools mostly KingchromeArc welderMiG weldersO/A setupMany grindersair compressorsmany air toolsIndustrial drill pressTwo Forkliftsmany more toolsMan has his will, but woman has her way.- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Reply:I dunno about this one....While I appreciate your consulting with a Weld Inspector on this job to check the soundness of your welds, I am a little disturbed by the whole repair...Really hard to see everything from the pics, but I don't believe that I would have done a "repair" like that.Forgive my negativity, I just got up, and will re-read this later when I am back from work....Have a Good One,Later,Jason
Reply:Obliviously, the area where it broke is the weak part as far as load is concerned. Since it broke under a heavy load, it needs more then just welding the ends back together. You need to look hard at why and how it broke and reinforce that area to be stronger than original. Your the last one to weld on it and you will be the first one on the line if it fails. I would listen to a customers concerns, but not let them dictate how it should be repaired. I don't understand why he wouldn't want any more metal added to the repair. Is he thinking about selling it and dosen't want it to look repaired?
Reply:Originally Posted by trapperjohnObliviously, the area where it broke is the weak part as far as load is concerned. Since it broke under a heavy load, it needs more then just welding the ends back together. You need to look hard at why and how it broke and reinforce that area to be stronger than original. Your the last one to weld on it and you will be the first one on the line if it fails. I would listen to a customers concerns, but not let them dictate how it should be repaired. I don't understand why he wouldn't want any more metal added to the repair. Is he thinking about selling it and dosen't want it to look repaired?
Reply:Originally Posted by Black WolfI dunno about this one....While I appreciate your consulting with a Weld Inspector on this job to check the soundness of your welds, I am a little disturbed by the whole repair...Really hard to see everything from the pics, but I don't believe that I would have done a "repair" like that.Forgive my negativity, I just got up, and will re-read this later when I am back from work....Have a Good One,
Reply:Originally Posted by Mad about MetalI decided to use flux core wire because it would burn in better and the customer wanted it done cheap... I had to clean out a fair few bad welds and then do heaps of spot welds and then join them together with a cap, I wasn't able to get close ups of the final welds as the camera died on me.. There was a ton of rust I couldn't get too so I had to vaporise it, another problem was that the customer didn't want any new materials put on it other than the welds.. When I picked the unit up the A frame was sitting on the ground... I decided to make a call to a mate who is an X-ray weld inspector and just have him check it to make sure the welds were sound.. And to my relief they were all sound minus one that had undercut on it so I had to fix that At the end of the day the work is done the customer was over the moon when I delivered it and I can sleep well tonight knowing my welds won't let go and cause an accident
Reply:Originally Posted by Ed.I also don't know if you should have done it this way either. If it was me and the customer didn't want me to repair it the way that I felt that it should be welded or repaired (ie; adding new metal) then I would have passed on the job. My reasoning would be:  If the original metal build didn't carry the strain then repairing the broken pieces together without adding extra reinforcing could possibly result in a compromised weld area, the repaired joint is not going to be any stronger but in fact probably weaker because of age fatigue, the joining of structurally stressed broken metal, rust issues, heat stresses, etc.  He broke it by overloaded it but if he keeps within the trailer rating it will probably hold, but chances are if he did it once he will do it again. (I know I frequently do overload my trailers that I build, but then again I design them to be able to safely take a substantial amount of weight over and above the registered rating.)If it fails again and there is damage or injury caused then it will be your name on the repair job and that is where the legalities and liabilities will start. Your defense will be along the lines of, "I repaired it to the customers requirements", and his will be, "Why did you listen to me as I know nothing about welding or repairs and your the one who is supposed to be qualified to know if it is good enough or not, and therefore you are negligent for taking advice from a non expert, and repairing it to a non professional standard." Your only defense I think will be, if it fails whilst overloaded and it can be proved that it was the overloaded which caused the break as it was more than the trailer rating.I don't mean to alarm you but I think you took a risk doing it his way. If it was a garden gate or bench then no problem, however as it is a trailer which it will go on a highway at speed, then if it falls apart again then that is another matter. It broke originally because of overloading it and he will probably do it again. Ultimately it is up to you to decide if it can be done safely or not, if you are happy doing the repair that way and think it safe then all's well. I cannot judge the repair without seeing the job in person, too hard from pics. Hope it all works out.
Reply:One thing that a lot of people overlook when making this type of repair is that EVERY joint associated with the original break now has been structurally damaged. In this case the pieces came apart at the rear of the tongue which means that when the coupler was bent up it has now stressed (and probably internally cracked) the welds or materials holding the front together. To do this repair properly, ANY and ALL welds on the tongue or related parts, should have been ground out and re-welded to avoid any future mishaps.Another thing that gets overlooked is what exactly was the cause of the problem. In most cases, simply overloading by itself is not the cause of the weld failure but more because of piss poor design, piss poor welding, or a combination of both. A trailer that is overloaded  should bend long before welds start to pop loose. The exact cause of failure should be diagnosed and changes made to make the trailer structurally sound not just functional.Three very common problems with people building or repairing trailers is:1. Improper materials choice or bad design practices.2. Over building, a trailer that is too rigid is just as bad as a trailer that flexes too much. (I can already hear the compulsive overbuilders reactions coming)3. Inexperience and lack of proper equipment to do the job safely and sufficiently.I am what I am, Deal with it!If necessity is the Mother of Invention, I must be the Father of Desperation!
Reply:Looks almost like corrosion was part of the problem.I don't know how thick the metal was, or is now, but if it's badly rusted there's not much to weld to."Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Forgot to mention one thing in my post above, this particular trailer falls into the piss poor design and improper materials category. The frame materials are not sufficient for it's application.I am what I am, Deal with it!If necessity is the Mother of Invention, I must be the Father of Desperation!
Reply:Originally Posted by dabar39One thing that a lot of people overlook when making this type of repair is that EVERY joint associated with the original break now has been structurally damaged. In this case the pieces came apart at the rear of the tongue which means that when the coupler was bent up it has now stressed (and probably internally cracked) the welds or materials holding the front together. To do this repair properly, ANY and ALL welds on the tongue or related parts, should have been ground out and re-welded to avoid any future mishaps.Another thing that gets overlooked is what exactly was the cause of the problem. In most cases, simply overloading by itself is not the cause of the weld failure but more because of piss poor design, piss poor welding, or a combination of both. A trailer that is overloaded  should bend long before welds start to pop loose. The exact cause of failure should be diagnosed and changes made to make the trailer structurally sound not just functional.Three very common problems with people building or repairing trailers is:1. Improper materials choice or bad design practices.2. Over building, a trailer that is too rigid is just as bad as a trailer that flexes too much. (I can already hear the compulsive overbuilders reactions coming)3. Inexperience and lack of proper equipment to do the job safely and sufficiently.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammLooks almost like corrosion was part of the problem.I don't know how thick the metal was, or is now, but if it's badly rusted there's not much to weld to.
Reply:Originally Posted by dabar39Forgot to mention one thing in my post above, this particular trailer falls into the piss poor design and improper materials category. The frame materials are not sufficient for it's application.
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammLooks almost like corrosion was part of the problem.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mad about Metalanother problem was that the customer didn't want any new materials put on it other than the welds.
Reply:hopefully that trailer stays in the out back off paved roads so noone gets hurt...time for a new rust free trailer..it will be worth the money in the long run..
Reply:keep it cheap!!!! lmao
Reply:Just got home, and re-read the intial post, and all the posts following...Still scratching my head on this one, but the fellas have all pretty much said what I was thinking, and you were considerate enough to answer, so there really is no need for anything further.You are satisfied with it...The RTA is satisfied with it...The customer is gonna junk it regardless....Have a Good One Later,Jason
Reply:I would be interested in seeing the RTA legal requirements for repair can you post the RTA code for the paper so I could look on there website to read it might be worth putting in with all the other RTA papers I have to keep on handCreative metal Creative metal Facebook
Reply:Uhh....Gobble...Gobble...GobbleMiller TrailBlazer 251Miller HF-250-1Miller MaxStar 150 STLHyperTherm PowerMax 380 plasmaLincoln PowerMig 180Millermatic 252Miller Diversion 180
Reply:Originally Posted by Mad about MetalI can understand your point, but if as you said it let go and killed someone or hurt them, then the RTA would inspect the trailer (they are done every 12 months anyways) And the load in it and it would show it was over loaded... And like I mentioned in later posts, I didn't add NEW metal...... Just dusty stuff that was sitting around the shop for a while after getting rid of the GAL coating.... And as to the overloading issue I will never overload for a reason and if someone does well I just won't go near em... I contacted the RTA (Roads and Traffic Authority) And had them fax out the legal requirements for repair. Now the trailer looks bad with rust but its not that bad not enough to cause a fail anywhere, it was within service limits (I called the manufacturer) I understand what you are all saying and I wish my camera hadn't died because there was about 3 metres of old (new unused dusty) steel welded underneath and painted to match
Reply:can someone explain why he used flux cored to weld this trailer?????wouldnt welding with argon be awhole lot better,safer,nicer welds, stronger?unless he doesnt have a nice setupFSAE CAR 1000cc Engine )))lincoln 125+argon conversion kit40cf acly 80 oxy= 97 jeep wrangler lifted 33" tires88 dodge dakota project truckOriginally Posted by moneymaker17can someone explain why he used flux cored to weld this trailer?????wouldnt welding with argon be awhole lot better,safer,nicer welds, stronger?unless he doesnt have a nice setup
Reply:Originally Posted by welloI would be interested in seeing the RTA legal requirements for repair can you post the RTA code for the paper so I could look on there website to read it might be worth putting in with all the other RTA papers I have to keep on hand
Reply:Originally Posted by Ed.Sorry "Mad about metal". I mistook what you wrote, that when you said you didn't add any new metal, I took that as to mean that you didn't add any metal reinforcing at all, apart from rewelding it, and I didn't realise that you did add metal reinforcing, just that you didn't use brand new steel. I think a few of us got the same impression.
Reply:Originally Posted by moneymaker17can someone explain why he used flux cored to weld this trailer?????wouldnt welding with argon be awhole lot better,safer,nicer welds, stronger?unless he doesnt have a nice setup
Reply:[QUOTE= it burns in a lot more because your not losing heat trying to melt the solid wire out!::[/QUOTE]you also are not cooling the puddle with room temperature gas..
Reply:Well cut my legs off and call me stumpy.. I saw the bloke towing the same dang trailer just yesterday while I was on a call and he and I had a chat, it passed the checks and he now owns it (turns out the old man saw it sitting on the side of the road waiting for me to tow it) none of my repairs have shown signs of being defective.. And guess what?.... YUP he had overloaded the thing again Tons of hand tools mostly KingchromeArc welderMiG weldersO/A setupMany grindersair compressorsmany air toolsIndustrial drill pressTwo Forkliftsmany more toolsMan has his will, but woman has her way.- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Reply:Originally Posted by moneymaker17can someone explain why he used flux cored to weld this trailer?????wouldnt welding with argon be awhole lot better,safer,nicer welds, stronger?unless he doesnt have a nice setup
Reply:Originally Posted by Mad about MetalWello,          I had to get the info from the RTA direct because it wasn't on their site, I had to contact them because the trailer had a defect sticker on it and had been ordered off the road, and when I contacted them to make sure they would allow it back on the road that was when I was told about the requirements for that particular defect... I have the papers here but posting them is a NO NO just like me making a copy of my vehicle inspection book is a no no, I suggest calling them and asking about their regs and the paperwork on it. Sorry I can't post em but not worth losing my accreditation if I get busted
Reply:Wello, the main reason I called was to check if there were any other defects on it so that I wouldn't get my butt kicked for telling the customer it was right to go when it wasn't.. A few people I have talked to since say that they have never heard of them being like that... I am wondering if they were just busting my balls because of the few times I busted theirs and had good reason too? I have had a few more trailers in since then and once I finished I called a different branch of the RTA and was told that as long as the listed defect was fixed then the trailer just needs to be taken by the owner to verify the defect is fixed (much like a car) and that is the end of my job other than making sure I give them a receipt and paper work paper work that everyone gets (don't ask)Tons of hand tools mostly KingchromeArc welderMiG weldersO/A setupMany grindersair compressorsmany air toolsIndustrial drill pressTwo Forkliftsmany more toolsMan has his will, but woman has her way.- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Reply:Whoops. Ignore this postLast edited by brslk; 11-28-2010 at 03:25 AM.
Reply:When I see these rusted out cheapo trailers I refuse to weld on them.  Their design criteria is to build a trailer just barely able to haul a minimum load and thats when they are brand new.  Anyone can build a bridge to hold up it's load but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that can barely hold up that load.  Usually those cheap trailers are just light gauge sheet metal folded up into tubing, channels and angles.  By the time the frame starts letting go the rust has weakened it everywhere, not just where the holes are.By repairing it you are making an implied guarantee that the trailer is restored to it's original capacity and roadworthiness.  If it fails and injuries and damages are being decided in court, you can bet you will be invited to the party.  Even if you prevail and are found not to be responsible your legal costs will far exceed any profit you made fixing that trailer.I have modified and repaired well made trailers if practicable but I stay away from those cheapo utility trailers.  Also I would make the repair according to my judgement, if the customer told me I couldn't do something I thought necessary I would pass on the job as well."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Originally Posted by noriteWhen I see these rusted out cheapo trailers I refuse to weld on them.  Their design criteria is to build a trailer just barely able to haul a minimum load and thats when they are brand new.  Anyone can build a bridge to hold up it's load but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that can barely hold up that load.  Usually those cheap trailers are just light gauge sheet metal folded up into tubing, channels and angles.  By the time the frame starts letting go the rust has weakened it everywhere, not just where the holes are.By repairing it you are making an implied guarantee that the trailer is restored to it's original capacity and roadworthiness.  If it fails and injuries and damages are being decided in court, you can bet you will be invited to the party.  Even if you prevail and are found not to be responsible your legal costs will far exceed any profit you made fixing that trailer.I have modified and repaired well made trailers if practicable but I stay away from those cheapo utility trailers.  Also I would make the repair according to my judgement, if the customer told me I couldn't do something I thought necessary I would pass on the job as well.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mad about MetalNorite, Can I suggest you read the posts again properly? I did indeed add metal to the trailer just not shiny brand new metal but dull dusty metal that had been in the offcut racks for a while..... The first thing I did when I was asked about this was to check what the thickness of the metal was and many other things... It had some surface rust but that is all and it is not thin sheet metal by any stretch of the imagination.. I am an experienced welder and know the limitations of myself and gear and I still know that this repair is safe...
Reply:Originally Posted by noriteI did read the thread, I suggest you go back and read your own posts again and look at the pictures you posted.What is the distinction anyway between "not shiny brand new metal but dull dusty metal" ?  I did read that, and that you had put some steel in..  My point was that the client should not be dictating to you how to do your job properly.I don't want to get into a pissing contest here with you MaM.  Most of my post was criticism of the design and workmanship in the manufacture of cheap trailers, of which your project appears to be a prime example.  I didn't get into about the idiots who buy them and grossly overload them, that is another subject.  However I question the repair of this trailer with its poor design, rust issues and overload damage.Looking at the pics:1. Almost every piece has a fold in it, which is what they do to sheet metal to stiffen it, to make up for it's lack of thickness. You stated yourself in one of your posts you didn't know how it would pass in the first place as it was just sheet metal welded to some flat and angle ( referring to RTA )2. I see surface rust, rust holes and rusty pre-existing cracks that were not the result of the recent overload incident, they had occured long before.  3. Hopefully your welds are stronger than they look, you say you didn't have final pictures.  I have found a nice cap pass on a weld is far less important than what is underneath it regarding strength. I offered my comments in the spirit of a cooperative forum, hopefully you don't take it the wrong way but I stand by what I said.
Reply:I might get a lot of grief for this, and I hope I am not missing something but the pictures of the weld here are not something I would showcase. They appear to have been made with a low amperage flux core, just my opinion, a bad choice here. Nothing wrong with fixing a complete junk trailer that has seen it's day, You just have to put in more time and material than it is worth to make it right.  For my time and cash it goes to the scrap heap, all but the axle and tires and we go new, at least for the main frame. Good effort but may have room for improvement."Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DCMillermatic 251   Syncrowave 300   30A spoolgunLincoln MP210Hypertherm 45(2) LN 25(2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV(4) SA200   1 short hood    SA250    SAM 400
Reply:Sorry norite.. I am a bit p!ssy lately I have fractured my foot and hence not being able to work and extremely little pay.... And yes I did it at work and workcover is involved (grumble).... I should have just said I nodded and let him think I was going to listen but I didn't and I did make sure that I rewelded all the affected welds and put plates over the broken areas for strength and put it all on the work orders and the receipt that went to the customer... Sorry again for being such an a$$hole.Tons of hand tools mostly KingchromeArc welderMiG weldersO/A setupMany grindersair compressorsmany air toolsIndustrial drill pressTwo Forkliftsmany more toolsMan has his will, but woman has her way.- Oliver Wendell Holmes
Reply:Originally Posted by kolotI might get a lot of grief for this, and I hope I am not missing something but the pictures of the weld here are not something I would showcase. They appear to have been made with a low amperage flux core, just my opinion, a bad choice here. Nothing wrong with fixing a complete junk trailer that has seen it's day, You just have to put in more time and material than it is worth to make it right.  For my time and cash it goes to the scrap heap, all but the axle and tires and we go new, at least for the main frame. Good effort but may have room for improvement.
Reply:Hey Mad about Metal, people posting their work here is what makes it interesting, thanks for your post, hopefully others will learn from your experience.  I have and I think most of us who have welded long enough have done jobs like yours in the past.  I just don't do them anymore if I am not comfortable with it.  I don't know how many times I heated up wheel centers or lug nuts to get them off cars and trucks and I never thought much about building burglar bars, never built any but I wouldn't do either anymore since I read recent threads on this forum about the dangers of doing so.My neighbour had a trailer much worse than yours.  He is a helluva great guy and I really felt bad but I refused to weld his trailer for him pointing out that it was beyond repair.  He was a boss for one of the local mine contractors and he got some contractor with a welding truck to come to his house and weld on that trailer for two days.  After that the old trailer disappeared and a new one replaced it.Long story short we are still on good terms and nobody gets hurt.  Hope you are enjoying your summer  down under, were just getting into winter here, first snow was last week.cheers  "The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:first snow was last week.HA HAMiller thunderbolt 250Decastar 135ERecovering tool-o-holic ESAB OAI have been interested or involved in Electrical, Fire Alarm, Auto, Marine, Welding, Electronics ETC to name a just a few. So YES you can own too many tools.
Reply:Just my opinion. Sometimes it is safer and better to just junk something instead of fixing it.That might also include your camera. Those photos are really hard on the eyes especially at 2 am in the morning. Maybe I'm just grumpy and should get some rest.I am glad you did post this post. It made my night. Pretty sad for me HUH?
Reply:if you use the macro(usually a pic of a flower) selection on your camera pics of close up stuff, welds, flowers, almost anything will come out much much clearerand yeah i prolly woulda just scrapped the damn thing too, too much time and workforney f100 220vmiller thunderbolt 225v a/ccampbell hausfield flux welder 115vcraftsman o/a rig(harris)collosal tech plasma cutter 50amp
Reply:Originally Posted by dumb as a stumpfirst snow was last week.HA HA