just a few first time ?'s and advice

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hey everybody names chris. i work for a steel yard here in north carolina. been there a year and recently been moved up to a "maintenance man" for a new machine. and with that comes the job of learning welding. were in the process of building  Frame for a part. well i am thinking of getting material from work and using the same concept to build a car port. my question is.. what kinds of welder should i buy to start with? i will b welding steel for it so a tig is out of the question and id prefer a DC not AC. and it MUST plug into a normal wall socket outside the house. no special 4 prongs or anything. anything will help or and extra advice for the newbie. thank you.
Reply:Good news and bad news for you.Good news: Most tig welders will allow you do do both tig and stick. Stick would be the best choice to do something like a carport. ( tig is generally a poor choice for thick material and outside work like what you want to do.) Note that the Diversion 180 from Miller while it will do 110v/230v tig, will not do stick.Now the bad news... Most machines that will do a decent job on a 110v standard house hold outlet and do both AC and DC tig will set you back quite a bit of money. A new Dynasty 200 will run you a bit over $4K set up for tig/stick and ready to go. If you drop the AC option, you can get a top of the line unit like a Miller Maxstar 150 for around $1K roughly. If you are willing to limit yourself somewhat on the tig end, you can get a unit like one of the Thermal Arc 95's for about $400-500 set up for scratch start tig and stick.To do AC tig for alum, you really MUST use a 230v capable tig. You need to run 150 amps output to do 1/8" alum, you simply can't get enough power from a normal 110v outlet to do this.Note on 110v power you will be very limited. You can pretty much rule out alum tig thicker than maybe 1/16", and tig steel thicker than roughly 3/32". With stick you will be limited to 3/32" rods and less for the most part. That would let you do say 1/4" tops. The real issue is that even with a dedicated 20 amp outlet ( nothing else on that line) you really lack enough power to run at more than roughly 95-100 amps output. Top of the line units like the Maxstar and Dynasty can run higher on 110v power, but you need a 30 amp line, not "standard" for homes.Lower end 110v machines like from Harbor freight are even more limiting. Tig you can do sheet metal usually, and on stick you will be limited to 1/16" or 5/64" rods, with a max thickness of maybe 1/8" or less.Both the Maxstar and Dynasty will also run on 230v power. Here you could do up to 3/16" alum on the Dynasty in tig, and both machines will easily run 1/8" rods in stick and do 3/8" + with the right prep. 230v power isn't all that hard to get. Most homes have a 30 amp 230v dryer outlet. A 50 to 100' 8-10ga extension cord with the right ends will let you run on 230v power with no problems. Lots of guys do this.Lastly, "structural" projects like a carport roof really aren't projects someone should tackle when just learning. Failed welds on a roof structure can seriously injure or kill someone. Welds like this must usually be done out of position and new welders usually can't perform decent quality welds even under perfect conditions in the flat position. Welds in the vertical and overhead position necessary for a project like this requires someone with a fairly decent skill set to pull it off with a reasonable level of safety. Couple this with an underpowered 110v machine, and you have a real recipe for disaster.At best if you do choose to ignore the suggestion to avoid this, at least do all the welds in the flat position on the ground and then bolt the structure together once in place. This will give you the best chance at a safe structure.Best suggestion is to hold off on this project until you have enough training and practice to pull this off, and have a machine big enough to give you plenty of extra power to help offset issues you have with lack of skill.Last edited by DSW; 08-24-2012 at 02:44 AM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW said it all. If you did go with mig, the Hobart Trek180 Battery powered unit charges on 115volts and can maintain a full arc of 180 amps for 20 minutes. If left plugged in, you can double that. They run about $1100. Only drawback for me is not being spoolgun ready. When it is I will be right on it.How much money is in your budget?Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:DSW-well i must say i do appreciate the advice from both of you. right now, and advice is good advice and ill take all i can get. and DSW, ill definitely take what u said bout waiting into major consideration bc id rather have no tragedies.by the time this project came around itd be prob bout spring of next year i hope. with ur advice at the earliest. i dont do a whole lot of welding at work yet to begin with. just starting to learn. mostly educational ?'s and answers right now and easier, straighter, not out of position or overhead welds. but the next question then would be what would b a good start just for sum home practice use? we have a REAL, welding machine, generator at work. not something u buy on ebay for a buy it now price. lol. but we also have a Lincoln tombstone AC. not AC/DC. just AC. and the guy that is teaching and training me even gets fed up with it but i know they make a AC/DC tombstone that is just like 299 or 399 at lowes. good start or no? buying metal isnt ever gonna be the prob cause like i said, i work at a steel yard.Shovelon- i have never used a MIG. i am only familiar w stick welding. really 7018's is about it. i have seen MIG, a guy i work with has a wire feed that he uses to help us out and get some things done faster. wire feeds definitely faster then stick.my price range is really no more then 1500$. and that includes welder, rods, twist stinger(electrode holder), grinder, wheels, sawzall/something to cut with, clamps, chisel, and w/e else miscellaneous things im forgetting or might need.
Reply:Check your PMssent you a link to look at....From the desk of Kevin CaronTrying to be the best me I can!www.kevincaron.comAHP Alpha Tig 200x MillerMatic 251Miller Syncrowave 200
Reply:Well you are boxing yourself into a corner with 115volts. Neither stick or mig 115volts is really of any use but for artsy projects or thinwall tubing structures. I have seen some fly-by-nighters do residential fencing projects or some questionable autobody work but that is it.You don't need tig at this point, and the only setup I can come up with is either a generator, or the Hobart battery powered mig. Some advantages of the mig is you can use the chart(which makes the whole process ridiculously easy) under the hood to set the machine for either flux core or solid wire with gas or dual shield wire which uses also uses gas. You will also be able to weld stainless with it, large or small spools. With a teflon liner you "might" be able to weld alum with argon gas. I did it for years until I bought my push-pull migs dedicated for alum.Cons are high initial cost and more do-dads to cart along. If I did mostly steel, I would just leave the flux core in it and be done. The really great thing with the Trek180 is you can go cordless or extend the burn time greatly by keeping it plugged into 115volt plug, like you need.You might want to check out the website "Welding tips and tricks". Jody did a wonderful review of the Trek 180. I learned a few things from watching it.  http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...-trek-180.htmlYour budget is $1500 and you are so close.Weld like a "WELDOR", not a wel-"DERR" MillerDynasty700DX,Dynasty350DX4ea,Dynasty200DX,Li  ncolnSW200-2ea.,MillerMatic350P,MillerMatic200w/spoolgun,MKCobraMig260,Lincoln SP-170T,PlasmaCam/Hypertherm1250,HFProTig2ea,MigMax1ea.
Reply:ya i like both of those guys. only thing is like i said... i cant use a mig.. well, dont know how. i dont have the experience with one. ive hardly really even seen one used. we use a stick welder. i am only familiar with stick. but also i noticed for that hobart its nearly 1500$. which is good.. but thats my entire budget really. thats bout what id like to spend on everything all together for what ill need for practically a starting "welding shop" i guess is what you could call it. im not trying to go all out at all. just something to familiarize myself with the whole concept/job of welding through home and work. then maybe go to school in a few years to get the rest down.  ive also seen and heard a miller thunderbolt is pretty good. i dont believe the are 110v house plugs but id b willing to put a lil extra cash towards this "dream" to buy a decent genarator to run that and any plug in accessories off of. keep slinging ideas guys because im still all ears. not tryna sound like a d**k when i say no to this and no to that. just tryna make it easier for yall to help me. so thanks for what u have all said SO FAR
Reply:Originally Posted by greersftwya i like both of those guys. only thing is like i said... i cant use a mig.. well, dont know how. i dont have the experience with one. ive hardly really even seen one used. we use a stick welder. i am only familiar with stick. but also i noticed for that hobart its nearly 1500$. which is good.. but thats my entire budget really. thats bout what id like to spend on everything all together for what ill need for practically a starting "welding shop" i guess is what you could call it. im not trying to go all out at all. just something to familiarize myself with the whole concept/job of welding through home and work. then maybe go to school in a few years to get the rest down.  ive also seen and heard a miller thunderbolt is pretty good. i dont believe the are 110v house plugs but id b willing to put a lil extra cash towards this "dream" to buy a decent genarator to run that and any plug in accessories off of. keep slinging ideas guys because im still all ears. not tryna sound like a d**k when i say no to this and no to that. just tryna make it easier for yall to help me. so thanks for what u have all said SO FAR
Reply:Originally Posted by greersftw we also have a Lincoln tombstone AC. not AC/DC. just AC. and the guy that is teaching and training me even gets fed up with it but i know they make a AC/DC tombstone that is just like 299 or 399 at lowes. good start or no? buying metal isnt ever gonna be the prob cause like i said, i work at a steel yard.Shovelon- i have never used a MIG. i am only familiar w stick welding. really 7018's is about it. i have seen MIG, a guy i work with has a wire feed that he uses to help us out and get some things done faster. wire feeds definitely faster then stick.my price range is really no more then 1500$. and that includes welder, rods, twist stinger(electrode holder), grinder, wheels, sawzall/something to cut with, clamps, chisel, and w/e else miscellaneous things im forgetting or might need.
Reply:well i guess a MIG is what its gna be to start with from what ALL OF YOU have said so far. i know HOW to stick and not mig and u guys say mig is easier and.. i aint no idiot lol so ill start with that and as time goes on and $ gets better ill get better. so i need a vote as to what 1500 will get with enough to have a bit left over for extras.
Reply:Well DSW I been looking at that miller u said ck out n it seems really good. But just due 2 my inexperience with them I'm confused by what all goes along with running 1. N what all it really needs. I saw alot of diff stuff that it seems like it needs to run. So can u explain 2 me a Lil more about MIG? Or THAT MIG even?
Reply:IF you are familiar with stick, use stick at work, and don't really want/need MIG, then a miller maxstar is the way to go.My name's not Jim....
Reply:** Any Tombstone/ Buzz Box size stick machine is going to need a 12k generator or more to run it. They are Power hogs and a little 5-6000watt genset doesn't have the ba.lls to run them.I would look in to figgering out power for your Welding Shop area first before spending any money on a welding machine.Running a generator to power your shop is going to get expensive and annoying real quick.If you still want to stay with something that works on 120v machine then look in to the Miller Maxstar that Boostin suggested.( it will work on 240v also )Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridge
Reply:So u 2 don't think that miller mm211 is a decent MIG then huh? Seemed alrite 2 me but like I said, I'm brand new 2 welding let alone MIG. Just heard alot that their easier n a whole lot faster then a stick.
Reply:Originally Posted by greersftwSo u 2 don't think that miller mm211 is a decent MIG then huh? Seemed alrite 2 me but like I said, I'm brand new 2 welding let alone MIG. Just heard alot that their easier n a whole lot faster then a stick.
Reply:Originally Posted by greersftwSo u 2 don't think that miller mm211 is a decent MIG then huh? Seemed alrite 2 me but like I said, I'm brand new 2 welding let alone MIG. Just heard alot that their easier n a whole lot faster then a stick.
Reply:my only prob with TIG's is there are very expensive and way outta my budget. ive seen them for cheap but they dont seem like those are worth even the little bit ur paying for them. i know their a all around welder but i mainly plan on welding steel, stainless steel. heavy- thin. i have an unlimited supply of METAL. But the only ones i really deal with at work are just plain jane stick a magnet to it steel. thick or thin. and being familiar with stick and hearing mig is easy just really keeps me in that direction. but im only working with bout 1500 bucks from tax $ next year.
Reply:Originally Posted by greersftwmy only prob with TIG's is there are very expensive and way outta my budget. ive seen them for cheap but they dont seem like those are worth even the little bit ur paying for them. i know their a all around welder but i mainly plan on welding steel, stainless steel. heavy- thin. i have an unlimited supply of METAL. But the only ones i really deal with at work are just plain jane stick a magnet to it steel. thick or thin. and being familiar with stick and hearing mig is easy just really keeps me in that direction. but im only working with bout 1500 bucks from tax $ next year.
Reply:bout what does that run? because im just planning on using my home use as practice for work for now and not as a professional thing done out of my home. because the house i live in now is not permanent so i dont exactly wanna make and big and expensive changes at any point in time.
Reply:First, I would say that a business decision needs to be made.  I would contact local welder/fabricators and get their pricing on the work you want done.  No need to spend $1000 on a welder + 10s of hrs of your time and maybe a helper etc. when you can hire a pro to do it a fixed price with pretty much guaranteed results (he's a pro right?).  How many projects do you have?  How many of them have a safety issue/concern (will your insurance cover you?).    The first part of business is to be a smart/practical business man.  Consider establishing a relationship with a local fabricator (those guys should be calling you up all the time anyway).But then again, learning/education has a value all its own....If your house has a 230V plug for the electric dryer, that will often be good enough.  Dryer plugs are good for 30Amps and in a pinch can do a bit more before the breaker blows.  The big caveat is that if you buy and old transformer based machine they tend to have in-rush (turn-on) current draws that can/will pop the breaker.But if you are moving this back and forth between work and home you aren't going to pick a 500lbs machine (some of those transformer machines can get HEAVY).The problem with 110V is that most plugs are 15 amps at 110V.  That is very low amount to weld anything structural.  You might be able to get away with a 3/32" stick - but you will be on the hairy edge of the input circuit - potentially popping breakers all the time. For example, my Maxstar 200 is a decently efficient 110V machine.  A 1/8" 6010 rod can run at 100Amps setting.  I like it a bit hotter, but lets stick with 100Amps for now.  According to the user's manual, I could be using as much as 25amps on the input side.  That will probably pop a 15 Amp breaker pretty easily.So.  Here's a suggestion.   If your need is a decent welder that can move between your house and work and possible needs to be move around the yard, look into a welder generator.  Yes they are expensive (even used ones in decent shape command a premium).   You can buy them on a trailer and as you move around the 'yard' take it with you.  Just make sure you have a place to lock it up.  Things on trailers are easily stolen...A new, higher end, gasoline Miller is about $4000 (depending on options and how you sweet talk the dealer).  Used they are typically over $2000.   And when the huricane/flood/[i] comes through, you can run your house off it (just maybe turn that electric hot water heater off).  So it will break your budget for sure, but it has uses beyond just a welder so maybe you can borrow from some other budgets.  They better ones from Lincoln and Miller hold their price pretty well so you aren't risking that much.  You could also run a smaller saw off the generator (or lights or?)The alternative to a welder generator is a very long extension cord.  The thicker cords required to run some of the equipment weigh a pound or so per foot.   So 100ft extension cord is a decent workout.Welders like Miller's Trailblazer 302 can run stick/TIG or MIG, just be warned that TIG and MIG require significantly costly additional purchases.  Stick really only needs work leads (call it $150 for leads + clamps).The trailer part will of course cost extra.    Personally I would be looking at Craigslist for one with under 1000hrs (every 100hrs is an oil change - like 5000miles on a car).   Often they sell them with a trailer.  Used I would say Lincoln or Miller only.Con Fuse!Miller Dynasty 350Millermatic 350P-Spoolmatic 30AMiller Multimatic 200Hypertherm PowerMax 1000G3Miller Maxstar 200DX
Reply:Hell, find a tool rental shop, and RENT a gas powered SA 200. Tow that sucker home, fire it up, and burn steel. Make all your parts, do your prep work days prior so all you need to do is burn & turn. Get a buddy to help you out, and throw that steel up. Plan it well, and you will only spend about $100-150 for the machine for the day, if that.And then, after so much work...... you have it in your hand, and you look over to your side...... and the runner has run off. Leaving you holding the prize, wondering when the runner will return.
Reply:you its quite ironic thatu actually say that Confuse. because one of the guys thats comes up to work and welds for us has a miller trailblazer 302 (welder/generator 11000w) brand new, well, a year or so old maybe. new enough its all automatic and digital. and he said he paid 4500$ 4 it at national welders the next town over. and made payments on it and in a year just on what he made on small welding jobs he paid it off. making 4 or 500$in a matter of hours.. now.. that is a lil too big for me and a lil too pricey.. but they make the bobcat 250 which is gas powered/diesel and can put out 12000w and run 120/240. stick, mig, tig,  grinder, sawzall. whatever you want. and miller has them going for a little over 4500 so i figure if i buy it from national and do jobs on the side and maybe put myself out there on facebook or in the paper or something that maybe in a little more then a yr or so i could have it paid off as well. or buy it with my tax returns next year [new born baby in 2012] buy it from miller brand new and within time have it paid off by USING IT. what u think guys? if ima be in the profession of welding then i need something that can do EVERYTHING.
Reply:The Bobcat is a very nice machine, but it has some downsides that are addressed by the Trailblazer.1st while the Bobcat will do mig, you need to run a VS feeder because the machine does not have a contactor and a 14 pin connection to the machine. Not a huge deal, but VS feeders do run slightly different than RC type feeders and can be a bit more limiting in what you can pick up used. 2nd some what related to #1, because the Bobcat does not have the 14 pin connector, you can not run a remote for tig. You will be limited to a fixed amp setting to do tig.The TB addresses these issues. You can run any 14 pin capable feeder from the TB, which also includes any of millers shop feeders like the S-22. These can often be found easily, so adding mig isn't that hard, other than you have a feeder that was really designed for shop use vs mobile use. It will also run just about any suitcase feeder, whether it's the RC type with the 14 pin connection, or a VS type feeder like the Bobcats can run. Also you can use a pedal or hand remote with the 14 pin connection to do tig, a big plus if you want to do mobile alum tig.If you primarily use 1/8" and smaller stick rods, do light wire mig, a Bobcat is a nice machine. You'll find a ton of them on maintenance trucks where the guys mostly wrench, but need to weld things here and there. On average you'll find most dedicated mobile welders use a bigger machine like a Trailblazer, or have the Bobcat as a dedicated specialized machine, like on a service truck, or as a backup.Honestly most "professionals" end up with more than one unit for a very good reason. Most "do it all" machines are lacking in at least some areas. "Compromise" machines almost always loose out to dedicated machines when run head to head. Someone who makes money with machines realizes this and buys accordingly. When you do find machines that do many things well, like the TB, you will find that they are priced accordingly, but still have some disadvantages compared to a dedicated machine.Honestly from your questions, I'd say you are a long ways away from being qualified to run your own mobile welding business based on your questions. There's a lot more to all of this than simply owning a machine. Every Tom D1ck and Harry, thinks he can make money if he owns a welder,. I hate to tell you this, but it doesn't work that way. Even if you can do the work, I've met tons of guys whose business fails, not because they can't do the work, but because they can't run a business. If you like long hours, low pay and tons of BS, then maybe owning your own business is for you. Expect to work 60-80 hr weeks and make way less than if you punch the clock for the 1st few years. Days off, forget it. If you have time "off" it's probably because you have no work, so you are "paying yourself" to do nothing. General suggestion is to have at lest 18 months of living expense money, excluding any you need for the business, set aside to make a go of it.Also remember once you turn "pro" there's a whole nother level of BS you now have to deal with. Insurance, codes, inspections, business licenses, taxes, workman's comp, social security, vehicle expenses and fuel...  just to name a few. Also keep in mind in this economy many municipalities are really cracking down on "side" work. They are loosing tax money left and right as legit businesses close. They want to recover some of that lost income by collecting from those who are trying to work "under the radar". You might want to read this thread about the CL sting Dabar 39 here got caught up in a few years back.http://weldingweb.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=35394He was running legit, so it didn't effect him, but I see these sorts of things happening more and more frequently. I also see the township inspectors/ code enforcement guys more and more frequently out checking up on contractors. They are out looking to nail guys running with no insurance, no business license, no permits etc. They now have to go out and actively show they are "doing their job" and bringing in lost income. Get snagged, and you'll find you will wish you'd played by the rules once they get done hammering you. It would have been way cheaper in the long run..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:so what would be your advise then if i wanted to set up a small shop behind my house and over time own a mig, stick, tig the whole 9 and just advertise. not run an actual business just have something on the weekends to being in extra money and a hobby to have and something to teach my son as he gets older? because the worlds always going to need welders and to me its something that i very fast found interesting and something that i seemed to catch on to in many different ways quite fast. i done really plan on having some big kinda business at any point ever. but in the long run and perhaps years down the road once my family is SETTLED on where we live have an ACTUAL SHOP/MAN CAVE and just have something to do on the side more then anything.
Reply:Too many variables at this point in yer life- not a permanent place, no 240v power  NEW BORN  congrats.Even if you did get an Engine Drive like a Bobcat, are your neighbors going to be cool with you running it at home?At this point might as well just go to harbor freight and pick up one of their little 120v Inverter machines and use that for now- save a bunch of cash- next year when you do have the $1,500.00, Miller might have new machines on the market.Ed Conleyhttp://www.screamingbroccoli.com/MM252MM211 (Sold)Passport Plus & Spool gunLincoln SP135 Plus- (Gone to a good home)Klutch 120v Plasma cutterSO 2020 benderBeer in the fridgeso what am i really gna b able to do with that? and the neighbors are deceased on 1 side and my in laws so i dont think theyd mind to much. lol
Reply:Did ya look at the Thermal arc 181I, 201I and 252I.   They show up on the ad banner here a lot.  Good 3 in 1 inverter based machines.  Lots of good feedback here about them. Definitely in your budget.   Get a ridgid 8500 continous generator. And u can weld all day.Tiger Sales:  AHP Distributor    www.tigersalesco.comAHP200x; AHP 160ST; MM350P,  Spoolmatic 30A; Everlast PowerTig 185; Thermal Dynamics 60i plasma.  For Sale:  Cobra Mig 250 w/ Push-pull gun.  Lincoln Wirematic 250
Reply:ok cool. ill look them and a generator up and c what im looking at price and n versatility wise.
Reply:well i cked out all 3 of those south and i like em, but that 252 def caught my eye and i def liked it and seems like something i could have and use for everything IM gonna need it for. and i found a 8500w generator for 899 so for practically 3 grand i could get started which is right in that budget i now would like 2 not exceed.