V vs ^

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In which orientation will angle Iron be stronger at preventing the angle from flattening? with the V pointed down, or the V pointed up? ( ^ ) Note the only place they will be attached to anything else is but weld on the ends.Before anyway askes because I know you will.2x2x.120 angle 1' span2"x.120 wall rec tubing (not confirmed on the cross section but it doesn't apply to this question anyway). will be on both ends of the angle.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:will be much stronger with the point facing up ^,  in this way, to bend, the side walls they will need to stretch, where in the pointing down direction all the need to do is spread open to bend... but were talking bending here, not flattening, if it's only attached on the ends then it won't so much flatten with load, it will bow... assuming a center load... how it's loaded and where/how the forces you are trying to counteract come from make all the difference, really need more infoLast edited by turbocad6; 09-10-2012 at 03:21 PM.miller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Trailer ramps. Load will be mobile and inconsistant. to many veriables to truely calculate. as minimum amount of force needed to bow the angle would be at the center of the span then lets assume that is the load rating we're looking for. again, 1' unsupported span for the angle, 8" OC.My thought is to have it V down this will allow for a smoother ride up the ramp thus reducing the momentum from the tires climbing over the ^ and also reducing the distance between the supported sections of the tires. I know many people like to have the angle in the ^ orientation to reduce the collection of debri/water/ etc. but to account for this the ramps will be flipped to stow. Thus allowing any debri or water to fall out during stowing/travel.Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the angle be more likely to flatten in order for the section to bow? would adding a section of .120 strap in the center of the span reduce this tendency?There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:the best way to really make it strong would be to weld a strip of flat stock on the back on the V, essentially capping it, then it would become a tube and be much strongerit will always be easier to bend a V into the opening of the V than bend out towards the tip of the V... easier by how much is hard to say as there are a lot of other variablesmiller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Just trying to get your meaning, but easier to bed if the and is in this ^ orientation with the force going down as opposed to this V orientation?There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:thats what I ment. putting a strip of flat stock in the V and making a triangle or an A depending on the width of the flat stock.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:it will be easier to bend with the point facing down. it will resist bending better with the point facing up. a strip of flat stock making a triangle or an A would def make it much stronger, but really should do the strip end to end of the V channel making it a complete tube, if you only do a small piece in the center then it will still bend on either side of thatmiller 330a bp TIGmiller dynasty 200DX TIGmillermatic 185 MIGthermal dynamics cutmaster 101 plasma cuttersnap-on YA5550 plasma cutterhypertherm powermax 30 plasma cutterbaileigh CS225 cold sawetc....
Reply:Unless you're driving something like an S250 or bigger bobcat up those ramps, I wouldn't worry too much about it.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Nothing to do with strength, but on a practical note, if you put the points down you'll create a series of muck and gunk traps.
Reply:Angle definitely will bend easier V down. Ramps should be made V up. If your concerned about the ramp smoothness... simply add a few extra slats to decrease the spacing.
Reply:welds4d,that was referenced earlier.Randy,This is all hypothetical for the time being. really going to depend on if the father inlaw decides to keep his skid steer on not. otherwise the weight would be limited to quads/sidebysides and at those weights it really wont matter which direction they are. as the weight will be minimal.Boost, I was trying to track down which model skid steer loader my neighbor/father in law has, but couldn't remember the model off the top of my head and couldn't spot it just off pictures. Will let you know later tonight. I do remember that teh wet weight with driver was approx 5300 lbs.The truss or bowstring type ramps I'll be making are rated at 4000 lbs each so they can handle the total load with safety factor.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Is a 90 degrees angle? if so, is the same thing  ^ or vLast edited by mauricio_daniel_62; 09-10-2012 at 08:17 PM.Reason: Only thinking in the force directionMauricio
Reply:Originally Posted by mauricio_daniel_62Is a 90 degrees angle? if so, is the same thing  ^ or v
Reply:Originally Posted by mauricio_daniel_62Is a 90 degrees angle? if so, is the same thing  ^ or vOnly thinking in force direction
Reply:Attached is the information, taken from an old engineer book. As a see, the X and Y resistance is the same (medium inertia moment of this angle. But the Z , which is we are talking about is the least of all inertia moments,And the best one is W. Attached ImagesMauricio
Reply:Play around with this:http://www.engineeringanddesign.com/1/045.htmIt's a spread sheet that can be used to calculate the movement of inertia in the Z weak principal axis and W the strong principal axis. There is also a spread sheet with some standard sizes. Once you know the moment of inertia in each axis you can then calculate the deflection in each axis on your 12" span and estimate it's capacity. Fun. For example: a 2x2x0.25 angle has a moment of inertia (I) in the X or Y axis (normal L shape position) of 0.35(Ix and Iy).  In the Z axis (weak, V down) the moment of inertia is 0.14(Iz). In the W axis (V up, strong) the moment of inertia is 0.55(Iw). So in the W axis, V up position the angle is over 1.5 times stronger than the XY (L position) and almost 4 times stronger than Z axis (V down) position.There you go... it's 4 times stronger V UP (just based on moment of inertia). Enough brain teasing. I'm going back out into the shop to to some real work. Attached Images
Reply:Looks like Daniel beat me to it... I need one of those engineering books.
Reply:The main thing on a ramp is, if the ^ is up the weight of the tire is concentrated on two pieces of flatbar attached in the middle.  when turned with the web up the weight is concentrated on one leg at a time instead of on two Mac
Reply:Dear forhire,Your information link is very useful for me. Thanks for this attachment.Mauricio
Reply:ok, now I'm confused. From the diagrams above Z axis would be with the angle in a  to a vertical load. and the W axis would be with the angle in a V or ^ to the vertical load. thus making the W axis the same for V up of V down. However the Z axis is perpendicular this in essence compressing the angle or the two outer edges of the V towards each other.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Dear Thorshammer,I would try to clarrify, sorry for my english.The above axis are called "neutral fiber" , thats means this metal fiber is not under compresion or elongation dur a load perpendicular to them.Always, is this kind of graphics the load must be considered perpendicular to the axis.For example, you must consider any axis horizontal when a load is vertical.....If you consider  , then the load is in the same direction as the Z line, so W is the neutral fiberIf you consider V or ^ , then the load is in the same direction as the W line, so Z is the neutral fiber.Hope this helpBest RegardsMauricio
Reply:thank you for clarifying the axis confusion. but with that it still stands to reason that the ^ up or V down is the same as far as load is concerned. Correct?There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Yes, your are correct. If the same thing if you use the angle in ^ up or V. This is that the theory stateSee the #12 post. Attached ImagesMauricio
Reply:so it doesn't matter if it's V down of ^ up except the fact that it doesn't catch as much debris. if that is the case I'd prefer the V down. cause all it takes is  to flip the ramp over to manage the debris problem.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:you're right. I would do the same thing you want to doMauricioBut with the angle in the typical 'V' position, then run a rubber tire or other roling load over it seems like you would not be necessarily be putting much (at least not all) of the load in the true W axis direction. Seems like much of the load would be directed outward on the legs more in the Z axis directions. Actually as a tire rolls in slow motion it would be 1st one leg then the other. With the inverted 'V' position (point up) the rolling forces would be more like an X then W then Y ?? The true W axis load being when the load was setting directly on the point of the inverted V?  No lip of the leg to get ahold of or push against to roll the angle out of plane?Just some thoughts."The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt
Reply:Sandy, if you've got it in the ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ orientation your tire is riding up and down over the hump creating more inertia and force then it would be if it were riding across a V formation because the sections that contact the tire are closer together. Either way you're going to have a rolling force moving from x to w to y. However with the cross bars in a V V V V V you reduce the distance between the contact points. The amount of of upward motion on the tire is reduced as well because the space that between where the tire contacts is shorter and in a more constant plain.There are no problems. There are only solutions. It's your duty to determine the right one.Hobart Handler 210Airco 225 Amp MSM Stinger
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerSandy, if you've got it in the ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ orientation your tire is riding up and down over the hump creating more inertia and force then it would be if it were riding across a V formation because the sections that contact the tire are closer together. Either way you're going to have a rolling force moving from x to w to y. However with the cross bars in a V V V V V you reduce the distance between the contact points. The amount of of upward motion on the tire is reduced as well because the space that between where the tire contacts is shorter and in a more constant plain.
Reply:Originally Posted by ThorsHammerso it doesn't matter if it's V down of ^ up except the fact that it doesn't catch as much debris. if that is the case I'd prefer the V down. cause all it takes is  to flip the ramp over to manage the debris problem.
Reply:You are considering just the load bearing of the angle with (I suppose) the bottom legs restrained (up or down) with only the aspect of the legs being either X-Y  or 45 degrees from that in angle of load. The load angle of rotation to the beam makes a difference for this purpose.The solution starts with the load plumb and build the load bearing restraint from there. If you take an angle apart and work with the greatest section width  to restrain the load that's the part that needs to be plumb or square to the load.When the open part of angle goes closer to the horizon the section is small, then you start to play with the strength of material and elongation may occur without any real deformation of the other leg.I've seen ramps done with the point down and the lower leg deforms down some (bows out) and the top leg stays pretty good so it ends up like a bit of a washboard but still works OK even if it looks a bit funny.Matt
Reply:forhire,Excellent work!!!!!!!With your first diagram,And with the second one you´ve madeAll is very easy to understandBest Regards Attached ImagesMauricio