So Who Needs MIG?? 7024 shootout

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THIS WILL BE IN 3 POSTS, SO HOLD YER HORSESHaven't struck an arc in goin' on 3 weeks, and it bein' a muddy mess today, thought it might be a good day to fool around with some different rods I picked up the other day.7024Low penetration, fast fill, FAST TRAVEL, rods.  For all flat welds only.  Flat butts, and what I call a flat fillet(what y'all call a simple horizontal fillet).Stacked a few beads to get used to the stuffIT'S DIFFERENT  High amps, extreme drag angle, and move like a scalded azz ape  The puddle is key as usual.  Watch it, and move with it!!  Or the slag will positively outrun the puddle in a heartbeat!!Ran around 4 rods, and by the time I saw the results as shown in the last 2 pics, I figured I was ready for "THE TEST" (next post) Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:THE TESTHow does this stuff really work in MY REAL WORLD.  Not the perfect interweb worldRusty metal, with a good hand wirebrushing to remove loose rust.BRING IT ON!!!!!!OoooooooCamera dosen't do justice to the beauty of this filler material.  Tried different lighting conditions to bring out the ambiance, bouquet, and texture Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Glad to see you finally try some "Jet" rod. It is great rod for a lot of applications and some where you wouldn't think you could use it at all.
Reply:THE SHOOTOUTWill this be the end of my affair with 7018  A new mistress hidden away in some love nestStacked a couple of passes on top of the 7024 using 7018 Excalibur.  En GardeOne next to the fillet, and one on top of the fillet against the vertical plate.The switch was interesting.  Changing from a hyper speed travel with the 7024 to the snail speed travel of the 7018.Puddle characteristics seem to be very different too.  With the 7024, the puddle is almost overruning the rod tip.  With 7018, the puddle is a small ways back from the tip depending on rod angle.  You're watching different things in different places with each rod, but it still boils down to "be the puddle"Settings....... pic 3 the 7024.  pic 4 the 7018.  I couldn't tell ya amps, it's mostly about how the puddle runs, not the amps.  Amps are a starting point.  11ga tubing, 3/16 flat.  Temp a wonderful cool 60 degrees, and overcast7018 is stayin' right where she is in my household  Her rival looks like she has possibilities on thin wall tubing, but probably that's about it.  The low penetration may be a problem, or it may not.....depending on the application.BUT 7024 IS, WITHOUT A DOUBT, A BABE Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Sam, slow down the travel speed a little.  No need to run it any differently than a 7018.  Normal 10-20 degree drag angle, normal travel speed, a little more amps than 7018 but not much.  Just drag it along.  Pics looks like you're running away from it and your description suggests that too.  Turn it down a bit if you find yourself running away from the puddle.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Sam, slow down the travel speed a little.  No need to run it any differently than a 7018.  Normal 10-20 degree drag angle, normal travel speed, a little more amps than 7018 but not much.  Just drag it along.  Pics looks like you're running away from it and your description suggests that too.  Turn it down a bit if you find yourself running away from the puddle.
Reply:7024 Jet rod works great in flat, and fillet positions. In production I have used 3/16 and 1/4 inch "cigar" rod on joining flat steel sheets. Works great on flanges too. Just lay that big rod on the plate and it burns itself.6"XX P5P8 6G
Reply:Samm,Your love affair will end when you go uphill or overhead with the rod, then you'll dump this fast tramp and go back to your old steady and swear loyalty to her once again, if she will only take you back....Its 1 and 2 G only....Or least its supposed to be. I imagine you'll sneak a way to do it though.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldSamm,Your love affair will end when you go uphill or overhead with the rod, then you'll dump this fast tramp and go back to your old steady and swear loyalty to her once again, if she will only take you back....Its 1 and 2 G only....Or least its supposed to be. I imagine you'll sneak a way to do it though.
Reply:still a rod with the same position limitations, but I wonder if the penetration is any better.(7028)One of the listed benefits of the 7024 is the fact that it doesn't incorporate much parent metal into the filler material, making it very good for metal with poor welding qualities.  And it's supposed to be very ductile because of the high iron content.  That would seem to me to make it pretty good for joints subject to a lot of flexing as opposed to very high loads.I also wonder if the HAZ is as severe as possible with 7018, and whether it matters at all?"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammBut I'd like to see how the 7028 LO HY rod compares.  It's near on the same characteristics, but low hydrogen.
Reply:Originally Posted by gordfrasertea id like to see the comparison between the 7024 and 7028.i use 7024 when im in a hurry, but sometimes you just need that low hi.think you only get 7028 in 50# er's  and then you have the storage problem.
Reply:Samm, 7024 isn't really  meant for doing root passes.  It's a fill rod.  Do your root with 60xx rod to get the penetration, then fill with 7024 to make the job go faster.Yes, 7024 is a flat/horizontal position rod only.  Puddle is too fluid to use out of position.Your beads have that sharp arrow shape on the surface <<<<<<<< which means you're running away from the puddle.   Turn it down and slow down and you'll get the (((((((((((((((( look that you're used to with 7018.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Samm, 7024 isn't really  meant for doing root passes.  It's a fill rod.  Do your root with 60xx rod to get the penetration, then fill with 7024 to make the job go faster.Yes, 7024 is a flat/horizontal position rod only.  Puddle is too fluid to use out of position.Your beads have that sharp arrow shape on the surface <<<<<<<< which means you're running away from the puddle.   Turn it down and slow down and you'll get the (((((((((((((((( look that you're used to with 7018.
Reply:The blank area near the original fillet was at lower amps.  Left side of pic, next to vertical plate.  No heat in the weld.  So the Farmer turns up the heat"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:And I got a thing about the sound.I've done strictly AC welding for so many years that I'm used to that nice digging snap of the arc.  I don't fully like DC yet.BTW........ I ran this stuff on AC, and really liked it.  Easy touch starts, and a really nice dig.  Bead wasn't as nice looking though, I would imagine that's due to the continuous arc outages associated with AC.  It's a hertz thing I guess"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:My early welding was limited to 6011 on a Lincoln tombstone... mostly on old, rusty farm equipment.  I know what you mean about the sound.  I've gotten used to the sound of a DC arc, but sometimes I'll run 6011 on AC just for old times sake, and I even have some 7018 AC rods.  Work HARDER, not smarter! ------------------------ Miller Bobcat 250Millermatic 251Lincoln Precision TIG 185Hypertherm PM 600Hobart 135 HandlerOxweld 400 FlameMaster
Reply:Farmersamm,Thanks for the thread.  This is the kind of "show and tell" that I learn a lot from.  I always enjoy your posts.Nctox...Nctox,  Stickmate LX  235AC/160DC  HH210
Reply:Sam, what I am seeing in the bead is exactly what I saw when you ran the 7018's for me. You can keep the heat where you like it, but you have to run slower. The V shape is the tattletale. It will tell on you every time. I always liked 7024's. We used to have hours of fun watching helpers  run verticle up with them......or trying to.QamuIs Heg qaq law' lorvIs yInqaq puS
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Samm, 7024 isn't really  meant for doing root passes.  It's a fill rod.  Do your root with 60xx rod to get the penetration, then fill with 7024 to make the job go faster.Yes, 7024 is a flat/horizontal position rod only.  Puddle is too fluid to use out of position.Your beads have that sharp arrow shape on the surface <<<<<<<< which means you're running away from the puddle.   Turn it down and slow down and you'll get the (((((((((((((((( look that you're used to with 7018.
Reply:It's a straight drag, but the rod's layed down pretty steep to keep the puddle back.Try some different angles today, have to start a quick manure rake build.  I'll play with the rod angle a little bit.Off to the steel supermarket"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:A person can run 7024 horizontally too.  I have run 5/32 horizontally on 3/16-1/4 plate.  The rod has to be held at the proper angle and kinda stepped as as you run it. Ran 5/32 on 135 amps DC, and watch out for the dripping slag. It will burn your feet up in a hurry. I used this technique for a backing weld, before submerged arc welding the other side in a tank factory.  Jet is nice to run once you have mastered it.Jet is classified as a fast fill, fast freeze rod. The drawbacks are Lotsa smoke, dingleberries, slag and cost.Last edited by Cofe; 10-05-2009 at 01:12 PM.6"XX P5P8 6G
Reply:A couple of links ....http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ature/c210.pdfhttp://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ture/c2410.pdf both of these are big pdf files, one is about actually operating the electrodes, the other has the specs for the electrode.   If somebody has the computer savvy, to pick out and post the relevant pages, I'd appreciate it.  I recall Samm has only dialup, and many others here probably also.   How do you copy and post a single page from a PDF file, anyway???Samm, for the flats, you have to keep the heat up.   If you don't, the slag tends to gather, and create "gopher holes" in the weld.   Both the angle, and the arc length, are critical using 7024,  much less forgiving than 7018.   DON'T WEAVE!!!!Although 7024 is NOT a low-hydrogen rod, I have used it in the past for splicing very large, heavy H-beams, roots run with 7018, fills and caps done with 7024.  As long as you can flip the work, keep everything reasonably flat, there is no stick rod that can put more pounds of weld down in an hour.Just a hint, welding flat, whether 7018 or 7024, if you have the ability, try to tip the work uphill slightly, maybe 5 or 10 degrees, helps the slag to roll back, less trouble with inclusions.I also used to use it a lot, welding blades, frogs, and wear strips onto loader buckets, even though it's not low-hydrogen, never had a problem with breakages or cracks.    Maybe it has something to do with the high heat, high amps???    Whatever, I'd tack it in with 7018, get the arch right, plot out my welding strategy to keep the arch where I want it, and then just weld, 1044/1045 steel, no preheat needed.   By the time I heard of 7028 (a low-hi rod), I was already using big innershield and dualshield wires, so I have no experience with it.   As already mentioned, for a 7028 to stay low-hi, it needs to be kept in an oven, storage issues might be a problem.
Reply:Originally Posted by CofeA person can run 7024 horizontally too.  I have run 5/32 horizontally on 3/16-1/4 plate.  The rod has to be held at the proper angle and kinda stepped as as you run it. Ran 5/32 on 135 amps DC, and watch out for the dripping slag. It will burn your feet up in a hurry. .
Reply:I've welded hundreds of pipe columns using jet rod, or 7024...The trick is to roll them just fast enough so the slag doesnt bury the puddle...you can get some real purdy welds that way, and its kinda neat watching the slag curl off in a big semi-circle piece as it cools....Originally Posted by gordfrasermmmm i run 1/8" 7024 @ 160A.....somtin not adding up
Reply:Originally Posted by CofeJet is classified as a fast fill, fast freeze rod. The drawbacks are Lotsa smoke, dingleberries, slag and cost.
Reply:Originally Posted by TEKI've welded hundreds of pipe columns using jet rod, or 7024...The trick is to roll them just fast enough so the slag doesnt bury the puddle...you can get some real purdy welds that way, and its kinda neat watching the slag curl off in a big semi-circle piece as it cools....
Reply:Yes 7024 is not classified as a fast freeze rod. I was thinking of putting down fast tacks on large sections of sheet steel. It is classified as fast fill. When welding with Jet, watch your slag puddle, it should have a nice molten crescent shape as you drag. If the crescent changes you can adjust the angle up or down to get the correct shape.(takes a little experimentation) On fillets it is easy to get gopher holes if you aren't watching.6"XX P5P8 6G
Reply:Samm, you should break that test weld, hammer it over onto itself, this will tell you right away what's inside.
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldSamm,Your love affair will end when you go uphill or overhead with the rod, then you'll dump this fast tramp and go back to your old steady and swear loyalty to her once again, if she will only take you back....Its 1 and 2 G only....Or least its supposed to be. I imagine you'll sneak a way to do it though.
Reply:Originally Posted by jsfabSamm, you should break that test weld, hammer it over onto itself, this will tell you right away what's inside.
Reply:I tried a vertical t joint with 7024 before lol.  It was at school.  I switched the machine over from mig to stick.  Went to the rod oven and grabbed some 7018 or so I thought.  I then went and tried a vertical.  It looked terrible and the puddle was crazy.   I cussed and swore. I thought I had something messed up with the machine.   Looked at the machine and everything appeared fine.  Tried it again same thing.  I finally tried it a third time and actually got something that resembled a vertical weld lol.  And thats when my instructor came in and told me to check what type of rod it was. 7024 in red numbers wrote right on the darn thing.  My instructor then told me to always check the rods before use,  that people stuff everything in those rod ovens.  The only thing I didnt check was the rod,  I checked every setting on the machine,  it just didnt pop in my head to check the rod, I didnt think anyone would put 7024 in the rod oven.(we were told specifically only 7018s in the oven)  Live and learn.
Reply:PICS..........WE GOT PICS!!!!!~!!!!!!!!!!!!Started, and may finish, since it's getting dark here, with a cross section of the weldWeld on opposite side of plate was ground out to facilitate the eventual BFH test.The root pass is the 7024, the outboard pass is 7018, and the third uppermost pass is again 7018.  Look to my original posts for the sequence of welds.  The 2nd and 3rd passes were to compare the looks of the 7018 compared to the original 7024 passWeld was cut at at the diagonal thru the steel.Looks like what I expected to find.  No voids, no crud, and basiclly a sound weld on all 3 passes.YA TURDS!!!PIC ONE....The cutting setupPIC TWO.....The grindout of the weld on the opposite side of the test weldPIC THREE.... The cutPIC THREE AND FOUR...........The resultsThis is cool, and I think it should be part of every welding demonstration posted.  Put up, or shut upBFH (or hyd press) test tomorrow when it's light out Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:(edit)PICS FOUR AND FIVE....... The results"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Decided to go get a small pack of 7024's to try and i like.These are the only 3 beads i have run with them so far. ( 1 stick )Probably ran them a little cold ( 5mm steel, 3.2mm / 1/8, 130a, arc force +5 ( -9 to +9 scale) ) but they still ran goodWill crank it up a little and give it another try on the weekend. Attached ImagesLast edited by LarryO; 10-06-2009 at 03:27 AM.
Reply:Those are beautiful  You must be almost perfectly in the zone to have the slag peel off like that.Those look much better than my results.I wasn't having much luck down in the 130amp range at all.  I didn't start getting a slightly concave bead until I went up into the 180max range on the Ranger.  I'm not sure what my amps were exactly, 150ish or soBEAUTIFUL!!!"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Larry O, very nice! MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:How do the different machine capabilities affect amp settings?Larry's machine is running 130amps at 66volts, and my little Ranger wasn't gettin' decent results until around 150-160amps at 25volts.The difference between machines is always interesting.  Sometimes identical machines will run differently.Cool stuff"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:A good way to tell if you're  amperage is correct is to run it in flat position until:The slag rolls up. DC of course.....forget about AC...Last edited by Cofe; 10-06-2009 at 05:47 PM.6"XX P5P8 6G
Reply:Originally Posted by CofeA good way to tell if you're  amperage is correct is to run it in flat position until:The slag rolls up. DC of course.....forget about AC...
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammHow do the different machine capabilities affect amp settings?Larry's machine is running 130amps at 66volts, and my little Ranger wasn't gettin' decent results until around 150-160amps at 25volts.The difference between machines is always interesting.  Sometimes identical machines will run differently.Cool stuff
Reply:Going to the welding shop on my way home from work to pick up my new MIG gun liner for my old machine.........................Will see what they have in stock ( sometimes not much)I will definatly pick up a box of 7024At work on the structual stuff, they sometimes run 7018 root and do fill or cover passes with 7024( if position allows)
Reply:Originally Posted by farmersammBein' as I'd never fooled with this type of rod before, I looked it up in The Bible before I opened the box of rods, and gave her a try.I did try a more conventional angle at lower amps, see some of the practise beads, and I wasn't gettin' any love.  So I cranked her up, and got with it.At least with me anyway......... the lower amps and travel speed increased the tendancy of the slag to outrun the puddle.  As I increased the amps and increased the angle, the arc force kept everything at a nice workable safe distanceI would imagine my travel speed was around at least 3 times the speed for 7018.This stuff is supposed be a very high deposition fast rod favored for fast industrial production flat welding.  I dunno
Reply:Any Bible will do...just read the verse that says 'dont spare the rod'.....practice, practice and more practice..He's talking about the Lincoln Handbook on Welding...I think..And welcome to the fray....
Reply:kiwi, It is lincoln electric's Procedure handbook for arc welding. Available on Lincoln's website for about 25 bucks american. Worth alot more.Whoa TEK, you beat me to it!Last edited by daddy; 10-07-2009 at 07:38 PM.Reason: too slow
Reply:Chasin the Blue Light is sounds like to me.Stackin dimes is my Rhyme
Reply:Originally Posted by daddy Whoa TEK, you beat me to it!
Reply:Thanks for the information and the welcome.
Reply:Went shopping and got myself a small pack of Ferrocraft 16XPT ( 7016 H8 ) rods.Low hydrogen, all position ( except vert. down ).  Flux colour looks a little like 7018 grey but a little darker.Rated amps are 2.5mm @ 50-90 and 3.2 @ 85-140a little colder than 7018's are rated.I will give these a try on the weekend and report in a new post with pics.  Must have pics.I will also try to make time to do a cut and bend test.I love to read posts like this, and im sure others do too ( i know Farmersamm does )Real World Testing as he would say.Last edited by LarryO; 10-08-2009 at 04:03 AM.