AWS unlimited test.

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Helping a young man get ready for his SMAW AWS unlimited 3, and 4-G side bend test with 7018. This is his first attempt at 3-G. I told him he was not ready, but you know how kids are, always in a big hurry. I think this might take awhile. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I think its cool that you're offering some help. Shows character. The one mistake I see many make on this qual. is spending a boatload of time first perfecting the visual. Then, once that is done they run a bend test and it reveals a LOT more work to do. Personally, I think its better to bend a few of the first attempts and see what is lurking underneath.So, looks like he needs to hold the sides a little longer or turn up the heat.But, that's just my seriously unqualified opinion.EricAWS D1.1 Certified SMAW 3G Unlimited, Open Root                             FCAW-G 3G Unlimited, w/BackerCellular Tower Reinforcement Welding on the frozen tundra of the greater Mid-West
Reply:Right now I'm having a hard time convincing him to control his arc length. Some of the bee bees you could trip over. I'm having him work on narrow, flat, and very consistent stringer beads. The first 2 to 3 beads there is not a lot of room for side to side movement with 1/8 inch 7018. Also trying to enforce the 3 times the rod dia. for width of bead rule. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:IF the young man is weaving to much, make him run smaller stringers.. I agree, little more heat..
Reply:He is using my Lincoln Invertec V350-Pro. I think he is running about 115, maybe 118-amps, 0 on the hot start, and 0 on the arc force. I have no idea what kind of machines he will be testing on, so I don't want him to practice with any advantages.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Hello CEP, wish to second the response of kudos to you for helping a young man out. Now, to address some of the issues with the AWS unlimited or possibly WABO test that this young fellow is planning on taking. If this is an AWS unlimited test, there is not a restriction for bead width by code, yet the examiner/testing agency could impose restrictions or specifications for either weaves or stringers possibly by way of the WPS. If it is WABO the same basic rules apply as the examiner could impose a stringer limitation or allow weave beads. Tool use might also be dictated, so try to convince him to do the best he can without the aid of grinders/power brushes as well as with basic hand tools(tack hammer, wire brush, pick). Then also have him utilize grinders/power brushes as these are used in industry in a lot of instances. If he can find out beforehand, he should, and then he should practice based on that information. Additionally, he should practice both because he will likely find many instances where one or the other will be imposed/allowed as he goes on through his career. When he sets up his plates he should pay real close attention to fit-up and plate preparation. He can space the plates up to a maximum of 1/4", personally I suggest using the maximum as this does provide a bit of "wiggle room" to ensure good fusion of both of the plate edges while putting in the root pass. Plates fit tight to the backing is a must as well as grinding to bright metal of all the contacting surfaces, this will give him his best chance for success.Make sure that he reads these responses, it may provide him with the little nudge to listen to you more closely as you go about helping him to prepare himself for his test.I know a little bit about this as I have been a WABO examiner in Washington state for the past 19 years to go along with my teaching duties.Good luck and best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:Hi Allan, yes it is a WABO test. Right now I'm allowing him to use a power brush. And only using a grinder to remove the large grapes that seem to appear! First morning I gave him the speech, just about echoing everything you posted. I went to WABO's site and downloaded their PDF file, and even called them. Over the years I've taken at least a dozen WABO tests. I seem to remember always being able to use a power brush, but never a grinder. Before he takes off, I'm going to give him a list of tools to take with him when testing. Chipping hammer.Wire brush. Small chisel.Center punch.Hammer.Flash light.Awl.  Once he gets a handle on this, we're going to tackle some NR-232, and Coreshield 8. He wants both cards.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I would use stringers welding in a slow controlled movement, allowing the molten metal to wash "outwards" from the electrode.If he is using a weave, he most likely has 2 problems. One problem is that he is not pausing long enough on the sides to allow molten metal To wash outwards from the electrode. There will be more heat input into the middle of the gap, and it will be cold on the sides. I would check to see if he is undercutting the bevels as he weaves from side to side. The other problem I suspect - he is not using wrist movements to direct the electrode into the bevels. He is probably moving his whole arm from side to side as he weaves. The difference between the two is that with wrist movements, is is able to "angle" his electrode from side to side whereas moving his whole arm, which alot of guys do, he wouldn't be changing his angle of electrode. Wrist movement:-  left bevel "\"- across the middle "|"- right bevel "/"Moving whole arm to weave-left bevel "|"-across the middle "|"- right bevel "|"I would see if he is undercutting the bevel plates as he weaves, or if he is letting the molten metal wash out. Also he may be trapping slag that he just cannot burn out.Now alot of guys overlook stringers, but electrodes such as "Inconel", "stainless", "duplex", "cast iron", require the use of stringers.Have him run on the ol' sa200's! Voodoo Magic metal Deposition, he just has to pass the machine electrodes and stand back while it does the weld for him.46’ sae30047’ sa200 w/Wisconsin VF451’ shorthood56’ shorthood56’ shorthood68’ redface69 redface07’ ranger 305G13’ sae300Inconel/Hastelloy – SS – Duplex – Chrome/Carbon Tig – F3Downhand – STT/RMD – F3F4 – B Pressure
Reply:He was a no show today, new to him truck broke down.I just went out to the shop to take a picture of a new coupon I had set up for him this morning to tack. Found this one test plate laying on the table. This is not the one I cut the side bend coupon out of. 3rd picture is an overhead fillet he did. Thorton you bring up some really good points! I'll have to watch him a little better. Just because I can do it, doesn't mean I can teach it. Funny how so much of this I do without thinking about. In the last year or so I've had a couple guys over for me to help out. Everyone of them will ask me why I do something, which is news to me, didn't know I even did it. I had him try my 1966 Red Face, he didn't like it as much as the V350-Pro. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPHe was a no show today, new to him truck broke down.I just went out to the shop to take a picture of a new coupon I had set up for him this morning to tack. Found this one test plate laying on the table. This is not the one I cut the side bend coupon out of. 3rd picture is an overhead fillet he did. Thorton you bring up some really good points! I'll have to watch him a little better. Just because I can do it, doesn't mean I can teach it. Funny how so much of this I do without thinking about. In the last year or so I've had a couple guys over for me to help out. Everyone of them will ask me why I do something, which is news to me, didn't know I even did it.
Reply:These are some I did a few years ago. This is what I'd like to see him do. I keep showing him how I do it, but his light just hasn't come on yet. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPThese are some I did a few years ago. This is what I'd like to see him do. I keep showing him how I do it, but his light just hasn't come on yet.
Reply:Here are 3 Short Videos from Youtube:They're very, very old videos which means that "You will actually learn something from them""How Arc Welding Works" "Inside Arc Welding #3 Horizontal Position 1942" "Inside Arc Welding #2 Flat Position 1942" **Most Especially** watch both the video's from 1942 thanks to General Electric. You will never ever, ever find a video as good as those General Electric 1942 videos.46’ sae30047’ sa200 w/Wisconsin VF451’ shorthood56’ shorthood56’ shorthood68’ redface69 redface07’ ranger 305G13’ sae300Inconel/Hastelloy – SS – Duplex – Chrome/Carbon Tig – F3Downhand – STT/RMD – F3F4 – B Pressure
Reply:New Welding videos will be show a Welder dressed up in a Red Suit with Lincoln Electric emblems plastered all over himself, Lincoln auto Lens helmet, Lincoln Gloves, 5 Lincoln Welding Machines in the background, using Lincoln Excaliber electrodes, saying things like "I am using this All brand New Lincoln Power Mig 350 MP with Chopper technology, patented synergy control, pulse on pulse cleaning action and this Rugged Maxtrac aluminum wire feed rolls patented design only by your best friends at Lincoln Electric!"and the only thing you learn about is What welding machine you definately must buy to be the very best welder, its price, and all locations of where to purchase it.46’ sae30047’ sa200 w/Wisconsin VF451’ shorthood56’ shorthood56’ shorthood68’ redface69 redface07’ ranger 305G13’ sae300Inconel/Hastelloy – SS – Duplex – Chrome/Carbon Tig – F3Downhand – STT/RMD – F3F4 – B Pressure
Reply:Hello everyone, showing, teaching, explaining, coaching, reasoning, and all of the other things that veterans of the trade do to help out the up and coming journeymen(gals included too of course) of the future are often hard to "reverse engineer". I know a lot of you have made statements about how you unconsciously, subconsciously, or muscle memory relatedly(not really a word, but it fits I believe), do things and when someone asks you how you might be at a bit of a loss to answer from time to time. I run into that sort of situation all of the time. Then I have to really think and attempt to put into words, thoughts, explanations, and descriptions items that can be understood to explain them. Sometimes I suggest for the individual to "NOT" watch the arc, but instead to watch body posture and motions. Much of what we do is relative to the entire body and not only the manipulation at the end of the rod. I believe one or more of you suggested ideas along these same lines. For me, terminology and descriptions of what is being seen, what I am looking for, and other verbal/visual information can be the subject of disconnection for teaching. What I see and describe is not always what is "seen" by the individual that I am working with. Getting to that common ground is certainly a challenge at times. I believe that it often helps when there are other individuals to draw from regarding experiences, descriptions, and demonstrations. School is a bit easier to come up with these examples. In our program for instance, we have 2 full-time instructors, 1 part-time instructor, and a number of student aids with various quarters of experience and also a bunch of students who are able to interact and coach one another on a peer level. The goal of the learning objectives are code compliant and industry level welding and welds. It is not so important how the welds are made as it is  that they are made correctly and I believe most of us know that there are many different ways to approach and accomplish this. The average person who is not a welder or knowledgeable of everything that goes into being successful as one has no clue to what degree that welding can challenge someone.That being said, I believe that this is partly why some beginners are often hard-pressed to become successful in a timely manner. They possibly believe that it will just come naturally and without a lot of work on their part. I believe that most of us who have been around it for any length of time know better. I learn something new every day and unfortunately, I sometimes forget more than I have learned, it's a vicious circle.There is also a lot of difference between understanding and being able to apply welding basics than there is to simply emulating or copying someone else as they watch what we are doing. That is not to say that we don't learn by example but more so to indicate that we need to understand the basis for why and how the task is accomplished. Knowing basics will help with formulating ways to address challenges that an individual will come upon and lead them to develop their own ways to deal with the situation and be successful.Well enough rambling from me. I think that it's great, CEP, that you have taken your time to help out this individual and others as they look to get into the trades. Best regards, Allanaevald
Reply:My biggest obstacle when trying to help these guys is to convey to them how to read the puddle, and anticipate ahead of time what they need to do to control the puddle. One of my most common phrases I say is “do what ever the puddle requires”. I have an Alaska airline pilot who comes over when ever his schedule allows, he has a horrible time reading the puddle. Sometimes I want to jump start these guys, and tell them to just time them selves by counting how long they stay on the sides. But I know that is just a quick fix and they need to learn how to read the puddle. At times I want to move them into pipe welding as soon as I can, I believe pipe welding is the fastest teacher of how to read the puddle. But I don't want to overwhelm them at the same time. This teaching is a slippery slope!Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:CEP When all else fails, I switch over to solid wire mig when people have issues understanding the puddle. At least it removes the slag from the equation and allows them to simply see me depositing metal. Usually I'll run an exaggerated horizontal or vertical weave or fillet so they can see me swing the arc from one side to the other directing the metal where I want it to go. I tell them to pay close attention to the ends/ sides and watch and see if they can pick up when the puddle catches up to the arc and I reverse my direction. I go slow and exaggerate all of this so they have time to see whats going on even if the bead looks like crap and is huge. Then I go back after they get the idea and run the same thing normal size at speed and see if they can now pick up what I'm doing. If dealing with someone who is having trouble with stick, I switch back over to stick and then run the same exercise again so they can see the same results, but with the slag added to the mix. Results are mixed. Some times it helps, some times it doesn't..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:DSW that is a very good idea! I'm going out to the shop right now and load the feeder with some Mig wire. I had already loaded it with some 1/16 inch Coreshield 8. If he can't see the puddle with 7018, he'll never see it with NR-232, or Coreshield 8! Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPMy biggest obstacle when trying to help these guys is to convey to them how to read the puddle, and anticipate ahead of time what they need to do to control the puddle. One of my most common phrases I say is “do what ever the puddle requires”. I have an Alaska airline pilot who comes over when ever his schedule allows, he has a horrible time reading the puddle. Sometimes I want to jump start these guys, and tell them to just time them selves by counting how long they stay on the sides. But I know that is just a quick fix and they need to learn how to read the puddle. At times I want to move them into pipe welding as soon as I can, I believe pipe welding is the fastest teacher of how to read the puddle. But I don't want to overwhelm them at the same time. This teaching is a slippery slope!
Reply:it would be just my opinion, but ive found the same with my apprentices at times. at the power plant i generally teach/prepare our guys fo the 5 different pressure tickets we require. But one of there mandatories in school is of course CWB plates. For instance, when they are doing a straight f3/f4 pressure ticket on 2" sch 160,  when they put there hot/fill/caps on there wanting to run 65-70 amps with a 3/32" 7018, i do allow this for there first few pipes, and when they come asking why it dosent pass, i tell them, you should be upto 90amps, there is a fine line, but running a hotter 18 series rod will produce a flatter, smoother stringer/weave and will make porosity a lesser likely hood. So when it comes to the CWB style plates CEP, i would have him start in the flat and master that position, but have him run between 125-128 amps. In my opinion anything over 130 amps on a 1/8" 7018 just gets too violent. I mean no disrespect but anything under 120amps on a 1/8" 7018 is far far to cold and is just looking for trouble. Good luck and cheers to you for helping out the new generation! unfortunately it seems a majority of this new generation would rather just fall asleep and gain the skills to weld code over night
Reply:One of the things that I've found to help just a bit is to tell whoever you are trying to show that you are actually making a thousand adjustments every second, all based on what you see the puddle doing. From there make exagerrated mistakes, from long arcing to whipping too fast across the center, etc to show them the results of these mistakes. I used to tell people that wanted to learn how to weld to go buy two 50 lb boxes of rod, let me show them what the weld should look like, then come see me when they are out of rod... (sounds cold, but it really IS how to learn )
Reply:Second day in a row, no show! Starting to think we may have a partying problem. Yesterday was a broke down truck, haven't heard a thing today.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPSecond day in a row, no show! Starting to think we may have a partying problem. Yesterday was a broke down truck, haven't heard a thing today.
Reply:Wondering if it might be best he travel 110-miles round trip to a welding school. Seems when people pay for something they appreciate it more.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:so true!I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys3rd strike and out...........
Reply:On the job he wouldn't get this far. Guess I'm getting soft in my old age. I really like helping these kids. I can still remember what it was like in welding school. May take a day or two before the teacher gets around to you.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Kids got a long way to go from looking at his welds.... My instructor had us welding bead after bead on flat plate until we had it down .... One thing I've kinda noticed throughout the years is you either have it you don't..... He's got some improving to do before I'd give him a chance at a bend test... Maybe start him off with some t joint tests and break it to see if he is getting good penetration throughout the weld.
Reply:Last February a very good friend of mine got this kid, (his nephew by marriage) into the union apprenticeship on a $4.65 billion bridge project. My buddy called me and asked if I would show this kid the proper way to set up a torch, and use it before he went out to work. I did, and also showed him a little bit of welding. That overhead fillet weld I posted before was his first attempt at overhead. I was floored at what a rock solid hand this kids has / had. I just called his cell phone, no answer.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:First time I ever ran anybody off who wasn't working for me! Back when I started out, I would have done just about anything for an opportunity like this kid just blew.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:owell good for you for trying. As said this a majority of this new generation just wants everything handed to them on a silver platter, want to make top dollar on the second day. Its really too bad because theres most certainly no shortage of welding jobs and money to make!
Reply:My buddy got him in the union as a first year apprentice, making $20.00 an hour plus benefits. When he showed up this morning 1 1/2-hours late I told him I had his stuff setting outside the shop door. And that I had better things to do with my life. Also told him he needed to go to work for the government, with his work ethics he would starve to death in construction! When I asked him if he got run off the bridge project because he was late, he got a funny look on his face. Like you say, O-well!Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPFirst time I ever ran anybody off who wasn't working for me! Back when I started out, I would have done just about anything for an opportunity like this kid just blew.
Reply:I forgot about that. Ah, he was a POS anyway! TS boxed him in, and made him quit.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:It is unfortunate that the kid messed up like that, it may not sink in for a bit what he lost out on, 1 on 1 training for free! Just don't lose faith in all the youngsters I may have to send Emmett your way someday to learn from you  he'll be full of my bad habits by that time.1963 SA 200 Redface, rebuilt by me, bodywork by CEP Everlast 255EXT w/W300 coolerMiller 212 AutosetMiller Xtreme 375Bridgeport MillSouth Bend 9" Lathe
Reply:I wish I had someone willing to mentor me, the nearest class is nearly 100 miles round trip and with me working "on call" it's crazy to even consider paying for a course. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't appreciate what they have. I've never been one to miss out on anything offered to me simply because where I live, opportunity is rare.Maybe he's still to busy being a kid. I have a nephew that shows interests and willingness, but reverts back to screwing off with his friends; which typically takes place on payday. He just can't keep focused long enough to get excited about something. I suppose hre's still looking for what he wants to do in life.  After a couple of years I've learned not to take any of his interests seriously.I'm 39 and still look for mentors. I love to learn and have a ton of interests. That probably explains why I'm a maintenance mechanic--always something new.Like I said, I wish I had someone nearby that had the time to mentor me.
Reply:Well he is a kid to me, (24). But when I was his age, I had two kids, and a foreman on the job.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:I would snatch up a opportunity like that dude had in a heartbeat. I'm only 23 and wish someone would be willing to teach me that kind of stuff. What a shame. My dad raised me with the work ethic I have and taught me there aren't any hand-outs which I'm very thankful for  but he doesn't know anything about welding. Just about raising turkeys and driving truck.-PatSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply:Same, I'm 24 and if I had someone willing to teach me how to weld better for free I'd be all over it. Was he covering materials or were you?Lincoln 175HD
Reply:He bought the 1”x6” flatbar. I cut the 22 1/2 degree bevels on the Ellis. I supplied the 1”x1/4” flatbar backer, rod, gloves, hood, machine, electricity, and most importantly my winning smile.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by 7A749Did you do all the work yourself?I wanna see them, I seen a couple pics in a thread some time ago.
Reply:Haven't made up my mind if I want to restore this one or not. Have to keep JAS away from my spare parts tho. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Ha! I am looking for the sheet metal lid that goes over the radiator cap.... Does that one have one on it? If so just part it out...... I could use one and that NOS ________ you have still in the box!!!Last edited by JAS; 10-16-2012 at 06:58 PM.1963 SA 200 Redface, rebuilt by me, bodywork by CEP Everlast 255EXT w/W300 coolerMiller 212 AutosetMiller Xtreme 375Bridgeport MillSouth Bend 9" Lathe
Reply:I think I have 2 or 3 of those, I'll have to look.Hey, do you have an extra mag for your machine? If not just keep that last one you got yesterday.Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPI think I have 2 or 3 of those, I'll have to look.Hey, do you have an extra mag for your machine? If not just keep that last one you got yesterday.
Reply:But you don't know if you can fix it yet!What is a NOS?Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPBut you don't know if you can fix it yet!What is a NOS?
Reply:BOY! That sure got in your eye, didn't it?!!!!!!!!!!!Don’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:Nice machines, i just got a boner!I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPBOY! That sure got in your eye, didn't it?!!!!!!!!!!!