Does this pass AWS D1.1?

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I'm certing at school, just finished SMAW last Friday, graduate this coming Friday.1/8" Lincoln 7018, 115amps1" plate w/ 1/4" backing3G and 4GMy 3G bend coupons came out great, no noticeable defects so I know I earned that one.My 4G had defects and is pictured below.I got a pass on both tests, just wondering if I deserved the 4G or not. Honesty is appreciated.I prefer to run 7018 at 120-130 amps but the mickey mouse welding school of hacks I attend will not allowthe test to be welded at any setting but 115, regardless of which machine you use. They claim this is per codeand I haven't had time to dig up the truth myself.Miller Syncrowave 250 w/ PC-300 pulserLincoln AC/DC 225/125Clarke TurboWeld 150ENJackson Halo w/ gold lensHuntsman w/ blue lensDoing sanitary stainless tig
Reply:No, lack of fusion at the toes among other things.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Are those side bends? Is that how its done in the states? Was this a test to pass the welding course or to be certified to weld in the field? Try increasing your arc force and arc length to get a hotter puddle at a lower amperage. Good luck!
Reply:I dont think that will pass. Your teacher may be misleading you the 115 amps  sounds more like what the school procedure is. the code does not say a specific amp do to the fact that not every machine welds the same ,some are hot some are cold. Also It  depends on the speed of your hand also.. Next time. try to clean alittle better if you can, burn over your stops and starts , start off below your plate on the back strip and stop on your other end of you back strip. If your slag is rolling up like a scorpions tail then you are good to go. If not the metal can be dirty or you can be a little cold. (are you welding with stringers or weaving ? By the way if you bust a test dont get up set. Get your head back in the game. It will happend to everyone. If you here some one say they have never busted a test then they have not take very many of them, and  they are alot greener than they let on to be. if you need any more info give me a haller and good luck.Last edited by welderinwv; 10-17-2012 at 07:15 AM.
Reply:Can't really answer that without knowing the dimensions of the discontinuities. jrw159
Reply:Here is a screen shot of a AWS Welding Inspector Examination. Attached ImagesDon’t pay any attention to meI’m just a hobbyist!CarlDynasty 300V350-Pro w/pulseSG Spool gun1937 IdealArc-300PowerArc 200ST3 SA-200sVantage 400
Reply:An excellent example of what is acceptable in the school is not acceptable in the real world. Even "perfection" is not acceptable on some jobs.When you test for an outfit that gets paid by the number of welders they test........ Think about this - "The more welders they bust, the more money they make".Again, give them "perfect". If you have to go on a bulletin board or ask another welder "Is this good enough?"..... It's not.HoboLincoln SA200's... at least 15 - 20. They come and go. Growing partial to the "Short Hoods" in my old age. Last count on Short Hoods was 13 in possession.
Reply:Hello CEP, item #3 is the important one in this case of determination of a Pass/Fail. If there are signs of visible slag or lack of fusion then the 1/8" limitation applies. I have yet to see a test where the 1/4" was acceptable, in almost every case there has been trapped slag or lack of fusion. Just my $.02 though. Best regards, Allan Originally Posted by CEPHere is a screen shot of a AWS Welding Inspector Examination.
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldI have yet to see a test where the 1/4" was acceptable
Reply:I can't tell quite how big the larger of the discontinuities is. Can you measure it? Is there any slag you can see in it?Lincoln 175HD
Reply:Originally Posted by TozziWeldingNo, lack of fusion at the toes among other things.
Reply:Originally Posted by AltheWelderAre those side bends? Is that how its done in the states? Was this a test to pass the welding course or to be certified to weld in the field? Try increasing your arc force and arc length to get a hotter puddle at a lower amperage. Good luck!
Reply:Originally Posted by welderinwvI dont think that will pass. Your teacher may be misleading you the 115 amps  sounds more like what the school procedure is. the code does not say a specific amp do to the fact that not every machine welds the same ,some are hot some are cold. Also It  depends on the speed of your hand also.. Next time. try to clean alittle better if you can, burn over your stops and starts , start off below your plate on the back strip and stop on your other end of you back strip. If your slag is rolling up like a scorpions tail then you are good to go. If not the metal can be dirty or you can be a little cold. (are you welding with stringers or weaving ? By the way if you bust a test dont get up set. Get your head back in the game. It will happend to everyone. If you here some one say they have never busted a test then they have not take very many of them, and  they are alot greener than they let on to be. if you need any more info give me a haller and good luck.
Reply:Originally Posted by jrw159Can't really answer that without knowing the dimensions of the discontinuities. jrw159
Reply:Originally Posted by CEPHere is a screen shot of a AWS Welding Inspector Examination.
Reply:Feed off your anger, and do it again and shove it to em! Your on the right path already! I know it's disapointing, but you seem head strong and will be on your game next time I hate being bi-polar it's awsomeMy Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys
Reply:Miller Syncrowave 250 w/ PC-300 pulserLincoln AC/DC 225/125Clarke TurboWeld 150ENJackson Halo w/ gold lensHuntsman w/ blue lensDoing sanitary stainless tig
Reply:Hello again hypothecary, I could reply to a lot of the issues that you have covered in this thread, but I'll try to make some general comments that might address some of your commentary. When you think of your schooling, consider that without actual trade experience you will need to be a step above the average joe/jane who goes into a shop in front of or behind you if they already have some experience in a shop or the field. You need to present yourself well, both physically and verbally. You will have to show up to an interview with the attitude that lets a perspective employer know that you are ready to go to work, willing to listen and ask questions when needed, and ready to give the employer their monies worth if they opt to hire you. A part of this presentation is being able to lay down above average welding beads right out of the gate. This is your trump card and may be the difference between being given a shot or sent out the door and down the road. As to your current schooling: school is the place to make mistakes and test the spectrum of your welding abilities. Run beads cold, hot, and everywhere in between. Run slow, fast, with short arcs, long arcs, slow wire speeds, fast wire speeds, all different gun/stinger angles, and everything in between as well. While you are doing all of this make mental notes of the results whether they be good or bad. A lot of the time it is a good habit to get into to carry a pocket tablet and jot down a lot of the information and observations that you see and make while these things are happening. Later you can go back through your notes and commit them to memory better or better organize them for future use. Remember that a mistake at school might likely get you a raised eyebrow from an instructor or possibly get you a lecture or a curt comment, but you won't generally get "fired". As you access the quality of your weld coupons consider the position, size, and nature of the "discontinuities". Analyzing them will give you a lot of information that can address how you can do a better job on them. You will see a stress line on both sides of the outside of the bent coupon bordering where the weld metal has been deposited, this is the actual "bevel", or the point where the weld interfaces with the base metal. Issues seen along this line generally indicate a lack of fusion or a trapping of slag. This can occur when undercut along a previous weld pass is present, when the toe of a previous weld bead is rolled over or too close to the adjacent plate bevel. E7018 has an affinity for bridging over tight, narrow gaps and grooves instead of penetrating and burning them out. Your best answer to overcoming this is not to present the opportunity in the first place. One analogy that I use to describe E7018 is to consider it as if you were frosting a cake. You have to spread it gently and smoothly in order to avoid problems getting it to lay down properly. No jerky motions, avoid excessive arc length(could promote porosity or cause a loss of surface tension), and avoid too short of an arc length(could limit the proper spread of the weld bead). Now,to the surface tension comment for a moment; think of a bead of water on a glass table top, if you put your finger into the drop and hold it slightly off of the surface of the glass top you can move your finger and cause the water to follow it. But if you move too quickly or jerk or change the distance radically you lose contact with the droplet and it stays behind as you continue to move your finger. An E7018 weld puddle can react in a similar fashion while you are welding, it requires a consistent, smooth travel speed, and an evenly distanced arc length in order to make a proper weld bead. Almost all of the weld positions can be very adversely affected if you don't consider "surface tension". With the vertical position, a loss of tension results in a "hanger", in other words you might have a nice even bead going and then all of the sudden you end up with a wide built up spot(the weld pool lost tension and the puddle back-slid) and right above that you have a narrow poorly built up spot until the weld pool is able to re-estabish itself and it's "shelf" in order to get back to the even bead status. It works the same for overhead welding and to a differing degree with horizontal, horizontal beads where surface tension has been lost will exhibit droop on the bottom toe of the bead, here again with a "hanger", for lack of a better term and then generally a thin, narrow area directly behind the hanger as the bead progression continues and until the weld bead has re-established itself.  Hope some of this makes sense. I realize that I'm all over the page a bit, so please forgive me for that. Keep at it and good luck with your future challenges and endeavors. Best regards, AllanLast edited by aevald; 10-17-2012 at 08:09 PM.aevald
Reply:Responding to CEP copy of  the examination specs. If the inspector wasn't happy you can bend another coupon from the same weldment. Your imperfection so happened to have occurred on the corner of the bend(the point feeling the most stress on the bend). Just find a job and kill it with the settings you like to weld with cause if I had a boss tell me that I can only weld at one amperage I'd laugh and hand them the stinger. Good luck!
Reply:I might pass it if you were doing this mid course but not for your final exercises.  Technically the corner break could be argued but when I screw up my face and smile asking "Do you really think I should let it go?"  The better students immediately say, "I am going to do another one".  No arguement.
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello again hypothecary, I could reply to a lot of the issues that you have covered in this thread, but I'll try to make some general comments that might address some of your commentary. When you think of your schooling, consider that without actual trade experience you will need to be a step above the average joe/jane who goes into a shop in front of or behind you if they already have some experience in a shop or the field. You need to present yourself well, both physically and verbally. You will have to show up to an interview with the attitude that lets a perspective employer know that you are ready to go to work, willing to listen and ask questions when needed, and ready to give the employer their monies worth if they opt to hire you. A part of this presentation is being able to lay down above average welding beads right out of the gate. This is your trump card and may be the difference between being given a shot or sent out the door and down the road. As to your current schooling: school is the place to make mistakes and test the spectrum of your welding abilities. Run beads cold, hot, and everywhere in between. Run slow, fast, with short arcs, long arcs, slow wire speeds, fast wire speeds, all different gun/stinger angles, and everything in between as well. While you are doing all of this make mental notes of the results whether they be good or bad. A lot of the time it is a good habit to get into to carry a pocket tablet and jot down a lot of the information and observations that you see and make while these things are happening. Later you can go back through your notes and commit them to memory better or better organize them for future use. Remember that a mistake at school might likely get you a raised eyebrow from an instructor or possibly get you a lecture or a curt comment, but you won't generally get "fired". As you access the quality of your weld coupons consider the position, size, and nature of the "discontinuities". Analyzing them will give you a lot of information that can address how you can do a better job on them. You will see a stress line on both sides of the outside of the bent coupon bordering where the weld metal has been deposited, this is the actual "bevel", or the point where the weld interfaces with the base metal. Issues seen along this line generally indicate a lack of fusion or a trapping of slag. This can occur when undercut along a previous weld pass is present, when the toe of a previous weld bead is rolled over or too close to the adjacent plate bevel. E7018 has an affinity for bridging over tight, narrow gaps and grooves instead of penetrating and burning them out. Your best answer to overcoming this is not to present the opportunity in the first place. One analogy that I use to describe E7018 is to consider it as if you were frosting a cake. You have to spread it gently and smoothly in order to avoid problems getting it to lay down properly. No jerky motions, avoid excessive arc length(could promote porosity or cause a loss of surface tension), and avoid too short of an arc length(could limit the proper spread of the weld bead). Now,to the surface tension comment for a moment; think of a bead of water on a glass table top, if you put your finger into the drop and hold it slightly off of the surface of the glass top you can move your finger and cause the water to follow it. But if you move too quickly or jerk or change the distance radically you lose contact with the droplet and it stays behind as you continue to move your finger. An E7018 weld puddle can react in a similar fashion while you are welding, it requires a consistent, smooth travel speed, and an evenly distanced arc length in order to make a proper weld bead. Almost all of the weld positions can be very adversely affected if you don't consider "surface tension". With the vertical position, a loss of tension results in a "hanger", in other words you might have a nice even bead going and then all of the sudden you end up with a wide built up spot(the weld pool lost tension and the puddle back-slid) and right above that you have a narrow poorly built up spot until the weld pool is able to re-estabish itself and it's "shelf" in order to get back to the even bead status. It works the same for overhead welding and to a differing degree with horizontal, horizontal beads where surface tension has been lost will exhibit droop on the bottom toe of the bead, here again with a "hanger", for lack of a better term and then generally a thin, narrow area directly behind the hanger as the bead progression continues and until the weld bead has re-established itself.  Hope some of this makes sense. I realize that I'm all over the page a bit, so please forgive me for that. Keep at it and good luck with your future challenges and endeavors. Best regards, Allan
Reply:Originally Posted by lotechmanI might pass it if you were doing this mid course but not for your final exercises.  Technically the corner break could be argued but when I screw up my face and smile asking "Do you really think I should let it go?"  The better students immediately say, "I am going to do another one".  No arguement.
Reply:Just curious, what school?Lincoln 175HD
Reply:Flaws are part of reality. The way we trained...we were allowed no single flaw over 1/8", no more than 3/8" flaws combined. In the long axis of the flaw, it exceeds 1/8", imo, that is technically a fail.Figuring out your mistakes, and how to correct them, is more important than beating yourself up over a questionable plate. The root pass is the foundation of the whole plate, and the test coupon area is the most critical zone of all. Keep your cool when crossing "the test zone". City of L.A. Structural; Manual & Semi-Automatic;"Surely there is a mine for silver, and a place where gold is refined. Iron is taken from the earth, and copper is smelted from ore."Job 28:1,2Lincoln, Miller, Victor & ISV BibleDanny
Reply:Originally Posted by slotardJust curious, what school?VERY SMART not mentioning the name.  Wise decision.
Reply:Originally Posted by tanglediverIn the long axis of the flaw, it exceeds 1/8", imo, that is technically a fail.
Reply:When I get home I will pull up the Pix of the D1.1 dual shield test I did. If you search hard enough, I think I posted it here 3-4 years ago. Basically you need more heat and need to hold your sides longer. As it has been said, what passes in school is NFG the real world.Disclaimer; "I am just an a$$hole welder, don't take it personally ."
Reply:Is it a for profit school or a community college?And Tozzi, he wanted to use more heat - they just restricted him to a given current, which is less than he wanted.Lincoln 175HD
Reply:Hello Nate, I do want you to know that for many schools there are things at work behind the scenes that students aren't always aware of, meaning politics and funding to a great degree. These things often lead to situations where students suffer. Most times the instructors are not there to hinder their students, although I have met a few who have made me wonder. There are also situations where the instructors have very little actual industry experience, you may wonder why? Some of the time it is because schools and their administrations aren't realistic about the earning potential of welders. They offer pay packages for welding instructors that most any welder can top very easily out in industry. That is a combination that doesn't necessarily promote a lot of talented folks to be knocking down the door to gain an instructor position. I took a large pay cut, as did my other full-time partner to start out with when we got into the teaching game. Now, 21 years later, I do well for myself as I have climbed the salary ladder very nicely. There are also many decent benefits to a vocational trade instruction job and...... you will not hear me complain about my wages now. You may struggle a lot getting your first shot at a job, you might even be let go and told that you don't have what it takes, EVERYONE goes through this initially. Most would consider this as paying your dues. Just consider that a "TON" of the employers out there always want an energetic young employee with 20 years experience. A definite oxy-moron. So when the time does come don't give up, keep your chin up and go forth and conquer. Persistence is a definite asset, hopefully you have been given some tips and suggestions on expectations of the "newer" generation of workers. These expectations of today are somewhat different from those of yester-years. Today a large number of employers will be concerned with things like: can you pass a drug test? can you show up for work on time? are you reliable and able to show up for work consistently? will you put forth effort for a full-day in order to earn a day's wages? are you teachable? can you listen to instruction? can you work well with others? are you willing to perform job tasks that aren't necessarily in your perceived "job description"? You'll probably notice that I haven't even commented on the skills that you have gone to school to learn. That's because most employers "ARE" willing to work with you and train you providing that you can perform the list of items that precedes this. A lot of the time they prefer to train you on the specifics of their welding operations as they feel that you may have pre-conceived habits that they don't agree with or that don't fit into their method of operation. I can't stress enough on how important listening, watching, and asking questions can be when you initially start out in a new position, or in this case, a new career. If you've made it this far in my post I congratulate you, a little windy for certain. Again, best of luck to you and regards, AllanPS. definitely keep us posted on your progress, it's always good to hear the excitement from someone starting out and how things are going.aevald
Reply:I only substitute but I regularly warn new classes that you are each going to hit brick walls and get totally frustrated with the guy in the next booth who aced the exercise.  Don't worry it will be his turn soon.  The best you can do is burn poundage and ask questions of instructors, other students and any upgraders passing through.   I understand students peeling out of the parking lot and venting rage on spouses, girlfriends and whomever will put up with the whining then back the next day to do it all over again.  If nothing welding teaches patience.
Reply:Originally Posted by aevaldHello Nate, I do want you to know that for many schools there are things at work behind the scenes that students aren't always aware of, meaning politics and funding to a great degree. These things often lead to situations where students suffer. Most times the instructors are not there to hinder their students, although I have met a few who have made me wonder. There are also situations where the instructors have very little actual industry experience, you may wonder why? Some of the time it is because schools and their administrations aren't realistic about the earning potential of welders. They offer pay packages for welding instructors that most any welder can top very easily out in industry. That is a combination that doesn't necessarily promote a lot of talented folks to be knocking down the door to gain an instructor position. I took a large pay cut, as did my other full-time partner to start out with when we got into the teaching game. Now, 21 years later, I do well for myself as I have climbed the salary ladder very nicely. There are also many decent benefits to a vocational trade instruction job and...... you will not hear me complain about my wages now. You may struggle a lot getting your first shot at a job, you might even be let go and told that you don't have what it takes, EVERYONE goes through this initially. Most would consider this as paying your dues. Just consider that a "TON" of the employers out there always want an energetic young employee with 20 years experience. A definite oxy-moron. So when the time does come don't give up, keep your chin up and go forth and conquer. Persistence is a definite asset, hopefully you have been given some tips and suggestions on expectations of the "newer" generation of workers. These expectations of today are somewhat different from those of yester-years. Today a large number of employers will be concerned with things like: can you pass a drug test? can you show up for work on time? are you reliable and able to show up for work consistently? will you put forth effort for a full-day in order to earn a day's wages? are you teachable? can you listen to instruction? can you work well with others? are you willing to perform job tasks that aren't necessarily in your perceived "job description"? You'll probably notice that I haven't even commented on the skills that you have gone to school to learn. That's because most employers "ARE" willing to work with you and train you providing that you can perform the list of items that precedes this. A lot of the time they prefer to train you on the specifics of their welding operations as they feel that you may have pre-conceived habits that they don't agree with or that don't fit into their method of operation. I can't stress enough on how important listening, watching, and asking questions can be when you initially start out in a new position, or in this case, a new career. If you've made it this far in my post I congratulate you, a little windy for certain. Again, best of luck to you and regards, AllanPS. definitely keep us posted on your progress, it's always good to hear the excitement from someone starting out and how things are going.