Eze outs should require a license to buy

admin

I had a reminder today of why I hate eze outs. Spent 1 1/2 hours crammed into a tight dirty spot with die grinders trying to get a broken eze out and drill bits out of a hole. Even after all that I ended up having to tap over size because there wasn't enough threads left to hold.  First shot shows the holes after getting the broken bolts out. The one on the left had the mess. The one on the right came right out after grinding a slight slot for a screw driver to back it out.   The second shot shows the mount after I trimmed the ragged torch cut holes and top edge off. The last shot shows the completed repair. I decided this was the best way to get the shoulder on the engine to do the actual supporting instead of the bolts. But I used 9/16 NF bolts to give it extra strength there as well. At least this engine has a cast iron end housing instead of the aluminum the last one had. I rebuilt this transmission just after fixing that last engine and transmission I posted about during the summer. Oh yeah and for those who remember that truck I put that whole unit on a new truck a couple of months ago but I don't think I got any pics of it (if I did they where on the camera in the house when it burned). Attached ImagesMillermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:Yeah i feel your pain I sheared an easy out off on a trailer axle last month. Took 6 hours to fix it never happens in an easy place to work either.Vantage 300 kubota ,miller 304 xmt ,lincoln ln 25 pro , ranger 305 G, plenty of other tools of the trade to make the sparks fly.
Reply:Which is why I never use them except as a last resort. I didn't break this one either it was brought to me this way.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:One thing I've tried over the yrs that sometimes helps in cast iron or mild steel is to drill thru the bolt and then heat it up w/ a welding tip, preferably an old one, and try to get as much heat as possible down the drill hole. Heat the bolt 'til it's orange and then let everything cool down to room temp. Then SOMETIMES the EZout will remove it.                                           MikeOl' Stonebreaker  "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes"Hobart G-213 portableMiller 175 migMiller thunderbolt ac/dc stick Victor O/A setupMakita chop saw
Reply:Originally Posted by mla2ofusOne thing I've tried over the yrs that sometimes helps in cast iron or mild steel is to drill thru the bolt and then heat it up w/ a welding tip, preferably an old one, and try to get as much heat as possible down the drill hole. Heat the bolt 'til it's orange and then let everything cool down to room temp. Then SOMETIMES the EZout will remove it.                                           Mike
Reply:I feel your pain. I used to say that a liscense should be needed to buy a tube of rtv silicone. Can't count the engines overhauled because of silicone in the pick up screen, or oil pump relief valve.But when I think about it, those goofs provide some good work for me.Repair looks good on that old screaming oil slinger. Got to have a large bag of tricks when dealing with broken easy-outs.PeterEquipment:2  old paws2  eyes (that don't look so good)1  bad back
Reply:Originally Posted by castweldI feel your pain. I used to say that a liscense should be needed to buy a tube of rtv silicone. Can't count the engines overhauled because of silicone in the pick up screen, or oil pump relief valve.But when I think about it, those goofs provide some good work for me.Repair looks good on that old screaming oil slinger. Got to have a large bag of tricks when dealing with broken easy-outs.Peter
Reply:Ain't nothing worst than the sound of and EZ out snapping off  Good save though Irish Little trick I picked up years ago for broken/seized bolts is to use candle wax. Put some heat (sometimes dont need much) around the area but NOT on the broken bolt. Then apply the candle around the threads of the bolt. The wax will seep into the threads and create a lube effect. Doesn't always work (like any bolt extraction ever works 100% of the time) but I have used it with some success.Remember one of the differences between a Pro and a Novice is the number of tricks he knows.
Reply:Originally Posted by larpheadAin't nothing worst than the sound of and EZ out snapping off  Good save though Irish Little trick I picked up years ago for broken/seized bolts is to use candle wax. Put some heat (sometimes dont need much) around the area but NOT on the broken bolt. Then apply the candle around the threads of the bolt. The wax will seep into the threads and create a lube effect. Doesn't always work (like any bolt extraction ever works 100% of the time) but I have used it with some success.Remember one of the differences between a Pro and a Novice is the number of tricks he knows.
Reply:EZ Outs can be use in ONLY two applications.  A bolt has failed due to fatigue and the head breaks off the bolt.  In this case, there will be no load on the threads so the easier out will easily back the bolt out.  Be careful about using EZ Outs on bolts that have been over tightened.  They may have gone through some plastic deformation which tends to lock the threads in the hole.  Fatigue failures see little plastic deformation.  The next case is a stuck bolt with generous amounts of heat.  We're talking red hot.  This will be enough to loosen the threads and allow the bolt ot be backed out.  IN NO OTHER CASE SHOULD AN EASY OUT BE USED!  Think about it, there was enough torque to fail a 3/8ths inch diameter piece of steel and you expect a 1/4 inch diameter piece fo steel to back out the previously failed 3/8ths inch piece?
Reply:Originally Posted by 76GMC1500EZ Outs can be use in ONLY two applications.  A bolt has failed due to fatigue and the head breaks off the bolt.  In this case, there will be no load on the threads so the easier out will easily back the bolt out.  Be careful about using EZ Outs on bolts that have been over tightened.  They may have gone through some plastic deformation which tends to lock the threads in the hole.  Fatigue failures see little plastic deformation.  The next case is a stuck bolt with generous amounts of heat.  We're talking red hot.  This will be enough to loosen the threads and allow the bolt ot be backed out.  IN NO OTHER CASE SHOULD AN EASY OUT BE USED!  Think about it, there was enough torque to fail a 3/8ths inch diameter piece of steel and you expect a 1/4 inch diameter piece fo steel to back out the previously failed 3/8ths inch piece?
Reply:I've had very good luck with EZ Outs.  I work in the maritime industry where many of my bolts have been exposed to salt spray for 30+ years.  I look at the circumstances of every stuck bolt and weigh the decision whether or not the easy out should be used.  The above cases will generally yield a successful result.  I will also add that I generally don't use EZ Outs on bolts bigger than 1/2 inch.  By that size, welding the nut on is typically faster and works to remove the bolt at the same time.Also know, the closer you drill the bolt to the minor diameter of the threads, the easier it will be to get the bolt out.  Just don't drill it so large that the bolt digs into the minor diameter of the hole.
Reply:Good fix. Broken bolts in a tight spot make for long days.Nothing ez about easy outs. The biggest problem is that the ez-out often expands the stud making it even tighter. Lubricant and heat are often required to offset this.I often drill, then collapse, and chase the thread or re-tap rather than waste too much time. Sometimes you can get lucky with a left handed drill. It's amazing how much force a drill can transfer into the part.Not generally well suited to mobile work but in the shop I use Omega Drills. They will drill right through a tap or drill. First time I used one I couldn't believe how fast it worked. I have saved tons of parts with these little guys. Attached Images
Reply:Originally Posted by 76GMC1500I've had very good luck with EZ Outs.  I work in the maritime industry where many of my bolts have been exposed to salt spray for 30+ years.  I look at the circumstances of every stuck bolt and weigh the decision whether or not the easy out should be used.  The above cases will generally yield a successful result.  I will also add that I generally don't use EZ Outs on bolts bigger than 1/2 inch.  By that size, welding the nut on is typically faster and works to remove the bolt at the same time.Also know, the closer you drill the bolt to the minor diameter of the threads, the easier it will be to get the bolt out.  Just don't drill it so large that the bolt digs into the minor diameter of the hole.
Reply:Originally Posted by forhireGood fix. Broken bolts in a tight spot make for long days.Nothing ez about easy outs. The biggest problem is that the ez-out often expands the stud making it even tighter. Lubricant and heat are often required to offset this.I often drill, then collapse, and chase the thread or re-tap rather than waste too much time. Sometimes you can get lucky with a left handed drill. It's amazing how much force a drill can transfer into the part.Not generally well suited to mobile work but in the shop I use Omega Drills. They will drill right through a tap or drill. First time I used one I couldn't believe how fast it worked. I have saved tons of parts with these little guys.
Reply:I've had success burning the eze out with a cutting torch and a small tip.  The eze out heats up faster than the surrounding steel, heat it red hot then gently give it a shot with the O2, repeat until eze out is gone.  Practice before you try it on something important.Sometimes you can get an eze out or tap to shatter when you hit it with a punch and a BFH.If the bolt was seized, stretched before it broke, as someone else posted, pass on the eze out and go straight to the drill and tap or better yet edm (electric discharge machining) if you have access to it."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Have any of you guys ever used X-Tractalloy welding rod?  If not you ought to try and locate some, it has SAVED me many many many hours of downtime.  I don't really know what it's made of, only that it works very well, I think it's some sort of stainless with and aluminum flux.  You just choose the diameter of rod you want to use depending on the diameter of bolt and stick the rod in the hole, the flux melts into the threads protecting them as you weld out.  Once you get the weld metal above the surface of the hole you can weld a nut to it, let it cool, hit it with an impact and most times the bolt comes right out.    This is the very condensed version, and there are some variables such as position, axcess, etc...  I have extracted 1.5" bolts that were broke off an 3 or 4 inches deep and rattled them out with a 1 inch impact using this stuff-----it's very expensive electrode, but downtime is more expensive.---sure beats the heck outta trying to get a broken EZ-out out of a hole.--Matt6 Miller Big Blue 600 Air Paks2 Miller 400D6 Lincoln LN-25's4 Miller Xtreme 12VS2 Miller Dimension 812 4 Climax BW-3000Z bore welders Hypertherm 65 and 85Bug-O Track BugPair of Welpers
Reply:I use Kroil from Kano labs to remove bolts.  I use to sell this stuff and it is expensive. I would give a can away to customers, and the next week they would order a case.  It's better than PB blaster and the other top brands, and it only takes a couple squirts.http://www.kanolabs.com/
Reply:I got one broke off in the spark plug hole in my 2001 taurus,first the spark plug twisted off right below the hex on the spark plug,then the ease-out broke off inside what is left of the spark plug,only way to fix it is to take the head off and I can't afford that at the moment,driving it just about everyday on 5 cylinders.It is the middle cylinder on the front but not enough room to do anything like drill it out or something.I don't get very good gas mileageLast edited by dugndeep; 12-22-2010 at 09:06 AM.Maxus Pro-125 MigChicago Electric 90 amp DC flux-coreLincoln Electric AC 225 tombstoneO/A torchM/O mini-torch10 acres of flatland15 acres of holler
Reply:Originally Posted by ExpatWelderHave any of you guys ever used X-Tractalloy welding rod?  If not you ought to try and locate some, it has SAVED me many many many hours of downtime.  I don't really know what it's made of, only that it works very well, I think it's some sort of stainless with and aluminum flux.  You just choose the diameter of rod you want to use depending on the diameter of bolt and stick the rod in the hole, the flux melts into the threads protecting them as you weld out.  Once you get the weld metal above the surface of the hole you can weld a nut to it, let it cool, hit it with an impact and most times the bolt comes right out.    This is the very condensed version, and there are some variables such as position, axcess, etc...  I have extracted 1.5" bolts that were broke off an 3 or 4 inches deep and rattled them out with a 1 inch impact using this stuff-----it's very expensive electrode, but downtime is more expensive.---sure beats the heck outta trying to get a broken EZ-out out of a hole.--Matt
Reply:Originally Posted by SeanMurphy265I use Kroil from Kano labs to remove bolts.  I use to sell this stuff and it is expensive. I would give a can away to customers, and the next week they would order a case.  It's better than PB blaster and the other top brands, and it only takes a couple squirts.http://www.kanolabs.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by dugndeepI got one broke off in the spark plug hole in my 2001 taurus,first the spark plug twisted off right below the hex on the spark plug,then the ease-out broke off inside what is left of the spark plug,only way to fix it is to take the head off and I can't afford that at the moment,driving it just about everyday on 5 cylinders.It is the middle cylinder on the front but not enough room to do anything like drill it out or something.I don't get very good gas mileage
Reply:It would probably be cheaper to fly you to kentucky Irish fixit to fix it than let ford garage fix itMaxus Pro-125 MigChicago Electric 90 amp DC flux-coreLincoln Electric AC 225 tombstoneO/A torchM/O mini-torch10 acres of flatland15 acres of holler
Reply:Irish - You need to talk to your customer about a total clean-sheet rework of the power unit's design, -which of course you can handle- because this Jimmy is headed for a major housing failure; the bolt failures were simply an early warning.D-n-D - A few heat and cool cycles would do wonders for loosening that plug.Or just  "rebuild" the insulator and electrode so that it'll fire for another 100,000 miles, deal with it all then.Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 12-22-2010 at 06:27 PM.
Reply:Originally Posted by dugndeepIt would probably be cheaper to fly you to kentucky Irish fixit to fix it than let ford garage fix itIf I knew it would run after I got it all back together,I would just take the head off and fix it myself,but if it didn't,I would have to have it towed to a garage to get it running again,sounds expensive.I called a ford garage a long time ago and they started talking about,"well it might need a new head",I could get it out myself if I take the head off,a few taps on the eaze-out from the backside and the eaze-out would just fall out,then a few heat and cool cycles like Denrep said on the threads of what's left of the spark plug and it would come out also.I bought a solid carbide drill bit off ebay to drill into the eaze-out,just no room to do it.I'll get it out and the plug too one of these days or I'll die trying.Maxus Pro-125 MigChicago Electric 90 amp DC flux-coreLincoln Electric AC 225 tombstoneO/A torchM/O mini-torch10 acres of flatland15 acres of holler
Reply:One of the mistakes I have seen people make is to drill about half way down into the stud before inserting a EZ out.  Unless it is firmly seated into a blind hole and bottomed out, drilling all the way through makes getting it out much easier, even though the EZ out doesn't go that deep.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:Originally Posted by dugndeepIf I knew it would run after I got it all back together,I would just take the head off and fix it myself,but if it didn't,I would have to have it towed to a garage to get it running again,sounds expensive.I called a ford garage a long time ago and they started talking about,"well it might need a new head",I could get it out myself if I take the head off,a few taps on the eaze-out from the backside and the eaze-out would just fall out,then a few heat and cool cycles like Denrep said on the threads of what's left of the spark plug and it would come out also.I bought a solid carbide drill bit off ebay to drill into the eaze-out,just no room to do it.I'll get it out and the plug too one of these days or I'll die trying.
Reply:Dugndeep, What if you pulled the intake and pumped grease into that cylinder thru the open intake valve, then by turning the engine { with all the plugs pulled and the problem cylinder coming up on the compression stroke} Over by hand, or even "bumping " the cylinder into a hydrolocked position, you could propably push the eze out back up and out of the broke plug, worse case is it didn't work and you have to manuelly open the exhust valve to push the grease out of the cylinder. it's worth a trySA 200square wave 175 proairco 250airco dip pacsouth bend lathemilling machine
Reply:nice to see you again Irish, nice fixezouts have never worked for me, in the shop its usually exhaust manifold bolts and those are a bitch kitty anyway. I drill and tap or rethread, saves alot of time for me. we ****ed with ezouts and heat a million times, same with reverse drill bits but no luckgood luck and nice postforney f100 220vmiller thunderbolt 225v a/ccampbell hausfield flux welder 115vcraftsman o/a rig(harris)collosal tech plasma cutter 50amp
Reply:Originally Posted by SPGnice to see you again Irish, nice fixezouts have never worked for me, in the shop its usually exhaust manifold bolts and those are a bitch kitty anyway. I drill and tap or rethread, saves alot of time for me. we ****ed with ezouts and heat a million times, same with reverse drill bits but no luckgood luck and nice post
Reply:Originally Posted by lugweldOne of the mistakes I have seen people make is to drill about half way down into the stud before inserting a EZ out.  Unless it is firmly seated into a blind hole and bottomed out, drilling all the way through makes getting it out much easier, even though the EZ out doesn't go that deep.
Reply:Originally Posted by 76GMC1500Drilling the bolt out relieves stress on the threads.  That's why I said earlier to drill as close to the minor diameter as possible.  If the bolt still has a head on it, knocking the head off also makes a HUGE difference.  It relieves all tension on the bolt.
Reply:Originally Posted by TexanjohnDugndeep, What if you pulled the intake and pumped grease into that cylinder thru the open intake valve, then by turning the engine { with all the plugs pulled and the problem cylinder coming up on the compression stroke} Over by hand, or even "bumping " the cylinder into a hydrolocked position, you could propably push the eze out back up and out of the broke plug, worse case is it didn't work and you have to manuelly open the exhust valve to push the grease out of the cylinder. it's worth a try
Reply:Snap on and mac have a tool for the newer fords bet it would work on yours as well."Liberalism is a mental disorder" Dr. Savage
Reply:Unfortunately, I believe that hydraulic theory tells us that when guesstimating with a 10" piston surface, and just 1000psi of grease pressure, that would exert a  rod-bending, piston-busting 5 tons of force on the piston's surface; meanwhile, the  .050 exposed EZout surface would be subject to just 50 pounds of push-out pressure.  I Think All guesses were to make fast easy round numbers, but you get the drift.Good LuckLast edited by denrep; 12-26-2010 at 01:36 AM.
Reply:Originally Posted by denrepUnfortunately, I believe that hydraulic theory tells us that when guesstimating with a 10" piston surface, and just 1000psi of grease pressure, that would exert a  rod-bending, piston-busting 5 tons of force on the piston's surface; meanwhile, the  .050 exposed EZout surface would be subject to just 50 pounds of push-out pressure.  I Think All guesses were to make fast easy round numbers, but you get the drift.Good Luck
Reply:Here's what is left of the plug,I have got the rest of the porcelain somewhere,only thing left of the plug is what I have circled plus a broke out ease-out,it broke off right below the hex,I think these are the original plugs,never been changed before I tried to do it.Car had 63,000 miles on it when I bought it 6 years ago.All of the plugs were pretty tight and hard to get out when I changed them,that's why I think they were the original plugs from the factory. Attached ImagesLast edited by dugndeep; 12-26-2010 at 09:55 AM.Maxus Pro-125 MigChicago Electric 90 amp DC flux-coreLincoln Electric AC 225 tombstoneO/A torchM/O mini-torch10 acres of flatland15 acres of holler
Reply:Denrep, I'm no expert, just a guy who been doing this for 32 years, Don't know how a 200 pd man with 2 ft of braker bar on a crankshaft bolt could excert 5 tons of pressure on a 9.62 cubic in surface area, at the most he would possablie get slightly more then 400 foot pounds on the piston top, no where near the pressure seen when running normaly, of couse this means that the ez out would only get "bumped" by about 8 pds of pressure. how many times would you have to hit the ez out with a 8 pd hammer to drive it out ? and by the way TEK when the EZ out comes out so will the most of the grease. But you are rite this is how we learn.SA 200square wave 175 proairco 250airco dip pacsouth bend lathemilling machine
Reply:There will be lots of grease left inside but my point is that after this failed attempt the head has to come off anyway to get all the grease out.  Just pull the head and get it over with.Gordie -- "I believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Reply:I didn't mean to hijack your thread Irish fixit.I went & bought this fluted eaze-out thinking the spiral eaze-out that broke would come right out and then I could try this one.The one that broke seemed really brittle and hard because it snapped and I hadn't really put a whole lot of pressure on it.You would think the pressure from the cylinder would push it out but it won't.If it does come out while driving,I got another spiral eaze-out to drive in there lightly just so I can make it home because it has no power with just an open spark plug hole. Attached ImagesMaxus Pro-125 MigChicago Electric 90 amp DC flux-coreLincoln Electric AC 225 tombstoneO/A torchM/O mini-torch10 acres of flatland15 acres of holler
Reply:Originally Posted by Texanjohn . . .Don't know how a 200 pd man with 2 ft of braker bar on a crankshaft bolt could excert 5 tons of pressure on a 9.62 cubic in surface area, at the most he would possablie get slightly more then 400 foot pounds on the piston top. . .
Reply:Maybe a 16th of an inch collar showing but not all the way around,it's that tight down in there.Had thought's of trying to stick weld a nut or something to the ease-out,it's all flush down in there,ease-out is broke off flush with spark plug collar.Not too worried because I might be buying a ford focus from a friend and when I do I will take head off myself because I will have something to drive back and forth to work,I just have to have something else to drive before I tear into fixing it.Maxus Pro-125 MigChicago Electric 90 amp DC flux-coreLincoln Electric AC 225 tombstoneO/A torchM/O mini-torch10 acres of flatland15 acres of holler
Reply:Don't worry about me. I do these posts to learn and hopefully help other people. Looks like I picked a fairly good subject this time.  Post away everybody.Millermatic 252XMT 304'sDynasty 280DXHypertherm PowerMax 1250Miller Trailblazer 302 EFIOptima PulserXR feeder and XR Edge gun and more athttp://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm
Reply:I must be lucky...got a call from an ex girlfriend a few years ago asking if I could help with a tune up on her car. Figured okay...this won't take long. Turned out that the last time, her current boyfriend (now husband) decided that anti-seize was not needed and only a myth for use on sparkplugs. Sheared the plug off at the same point as you, but luckily all the porcelain came out of the plug in one piece. I didn't even bother with the crap easy-outs I had in the garage (actually I think I threw them out), went to Snap-On and got a set of the square pound in style. Lots of penetrating oil, and a 3' breaker bar, tons of patience, and I got the rest of the plug to come out. Followed by a thread chaser, then a vacuum attached to a small piece of oxygen mask tubing to suction out the cylinder and it ran fine. She did sell it pretty quick though....Needless to say, he's not allowed to ever touch their vehicles again (well, after he screwed up an oil change by cross threading the drain plug...that I also fixed).To this day, easy-outs scare me. Especially when it's something like a cylinder head that's going to get really expensive in a hurry. I'd rather drill it out and put a heli-coil in if I can...-Millermatic 211, Powermax 380, and way too many other tools to list....-Unofficial, professsional, garage tinkerer...
Reply:ahh got to love the ez outs just when u think your afternoon is over you now have a long night ahead of you. I had a night well a few nights that makes what your going through not to bad. yyc_tbird_sc you should know what im talking about when you see the pic........ I was in the identical situation as you but take a look at the motor and the space i had. This car only has 28,000 miles on it to so they must be original plugs. i tryed ez outs and was going to drill the whole out but  I ended up throwing in the towel cuz i was planning on getting a new set of heads but not at that moment so it gave me a reason to buy a set of aftermarket heads           so lets play a little game of i spy try and point out my A. $800 ceramic coated headers. B. any of the spark plugs. And C. new headsLast edited by himsa169; 12-27-2010 at 02:08 PM.
Reply:Drivers side
Reply:redo of drivers side pic to big
Reply:front shot
Reply:passenger side with out the intake