DISCUSTING 7018 Vert Up HELP!!!!!

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I have been trying to weld with 7018 rods and horizontal is ok but trying to do vert up down right SUCKS!! It makes me frustrated and angry to look at the mess I make when I attempt 7018 vert up.I am using AC as thats all that comes out of my tombstone, and its 1/8" rod at 120amps.The porosity is nasty!!!I just gave up when it started digging in like this This is horizantal and its still discusting
Reply:Couple of comments from a non-pro.Number one = clean, clean, clean. Im guessing the reason the open corners look slightly better than the closed corners is the opens are presenting you with a lot more clean metal than the closed. Number two, are you running an AC only machine and if so are you using a 7018AC rod?
Reply:First off, AC is not the current to use for most 7018.  With that said, first grind your metal clean before welding.  To go vert up you will have to establish an arc, and then move side to side pausing on the sides to fill in undercut.  Looking at the pictures above it apears that you have no consistency in any of your attempts, and vert up is all about consistency.  You will almost develop a rhythm as you weave side to side going up.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Hello, you can use E7018 on AC current but it's certainly not my current of choice. If you are limited to AC current you might consider buying E7018AC as an alternative rod to use on your machine, it has some additional arc stabilizers in the flux that aren't found in a "regular" E7018 electrode. As the others have included, you will certainly have better luck by grinding your material to bright metal, if you wish to test this effect and how it affects the welds try grinding a spot on your material and running a bead over it and then along side of it run another bead on the un-cleaned portion. This will probably immediately illustrate the differences of taking the time to clean. Another thing about E7018 electrodes has to do with the proper storage of these rods. Once they have been removed from their hermetically sealed containers you have a relatively short time before they are required to be stored in a heated oven. E7018 is referred to as a "low-hydrogen" electrode because it needs to be protected from moisture or it can suffer underbead cracking and other structural compromises to it's as-welded condition. The porosity that you see in some of your beads could be directly related to running moist electrodes, it could also be a result of using damaged electrodes, meaning that they have splits in the flux covering or are missing sections of it. Best regards, Allanedit: E7018 is designed to be run with a tight arc and not long-arced. It is different from E6010 or E6011 which tolerate longer arcs and quick manipulations very readily. If you opt to manipulate the E7018 rod be sure to make your motions fluid and avoid whipping.Last edited by aevald; 07-25-2009 at 03:17 PM.Reason: to add additional information
Reply:Hammack is right a regular 7018 isn't designed for AC.A AC7018 is and can be used for both AC and DC.It appears to be galvanized. It won't weld right if the galvanization isn't cleaned off.  The porosity you have is is likely from the fumes of the galvinization gassing off.Angle your rod up instead of straight or down.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:an electrode that ends with the number 8 can be operated on either ac or dc. the 7018ac like the previous person said is just a bit more user friendly . ive ran a bunch of regular 7018 on ac its just like anything else it just requires some practice i guess.
Reply:1)Start the arc2)go across3)pause 1...2...4)up and across5)Pause 1...2..6)Repeat till done. i had trouble doing this when i was learning, those are the steps i took and worked well.25 years of age.Been welding since Feb 23rd 2009.LU1007 Millwright (A1)
Reply:Originally Posted by El_Lloydeoan electrode that ends with the number 8 can be operated on either ac or dc. the 7018ac like the previous person said is just a bit more user friendly . ive ran a bunch of regular 7018 on ac its just like anything else it just requires some practice i guess.
Reply:Originally Posted by B.Appel1)Start the arc2)go across3)pause 1...2...4)up and across5)Pause 1...2..6)Repeat till done. i had trouble doing this when i was learning, those are the steps i took and worked well.
Reply:On practice coupons that small, you should probably quench the weldment between each pass, to prevent overheating.How old is the rod? And do you live in a humid area?9-11-2001......We Will Never ForgetRetired desk jockey. Hobby weldor with a little training. Craftsman O/A---Flat, Vert, Ovhd, Horz. Miller Syncrowave 250
Reply:I found the Murex AC 7018 run pretty good on my AC only engine welder. Far better than other AC 7018 I tried.I would nail the horizontal bead down first.  Then move your material to a slight incline gradually progessing to a 45 degree incline.  Vertical up would be the final adjusment once all other positions are accomplished.As far as weave is concerned IMHO, I hardly weave 7018 on the initial pass of a T-weld.  However, subsequent passes are weaved from side to side as aforementioned, pausing to fill in the sides.  Just my approach.  Patience.  Some positions are more challenging to some people than others.
Reply:Might do you a world of good to get your hands on a copy of the Lincoln Electric Stick Electrode Welding Guide - either from your LWS or off of the Lincoln website.Nice little reference book to have tucked in your toolbox.  Covers primarily E-6010 and E-7018, and  gives techniques, machine settings etc for all positions.An inexpensive alternative to securing the assistance of a Mentor, or investing in some videos.As to specific advice - Gotta crawl before you can walk - Concentrate on 1F and 2F welds first, THEN 3F and 4F.  As mentioned before, cleanliness, and preparation, are important cornerstones of a sound weldmentHave a Good Night. Attached ImagesLast edited by Black Wolf; 07-25-2009 at 11:15 PM.Later,Jason
Reply:yes I live in a very humid area and the lincoln rods I'm using came in a cardboard box sealed with shrinkwrap if that makes any difference.I baked the rods in my oven at 220* for a few hours as per a welding shops advice but idk if it made a difference or not.I have decided i am going to bolt some of this stuff in addition to the welds already made to act as a backup should one of them fail.I look at this project as a learning experience for when I do bigger and greater things in the future.I would LOVE to take some welding classes but i am currently going to school and dont have time for additionial schooling (except on here, thanks lol)when my school is done I will take welding classes and who knows maybe pass the test they give you lol.
Reply:i used to run them on an old tombstone hammack. only problems i ever really had was striking the arc. i just noticed the fellow said he was trying vertical down with the 7018.....not recommended. this is an uphill electrode when welding vertical. not gonna work out very well welding downhill with the 7018.
Reply:Originally Posted by MyRedTombstoneI have been trying to weld with 7018 rods and horizontal is ok but trying to do vert up  down right SUCKS!!
Reply:I would'nt run a weave on your first pass of the t-joint. Cleaning the plates as said, very very good idea, shiny metal. I'd tack your plates and just run a single stringer up the groove of the joint. This way you can concentrate your arc force to the root. After you run a stringer then you could go over it with a cap or weave if needed. I prefer a zig-zag motion myself, just what works for me. On the pics with your multiple pinholes I'm wondering if your arc was not a bit long? Not a super experienced expert but have noticed when I long arc a 7018 and try to run a weld it tends to pinhole, not hot enough, not burning out slag, gas......not sure which but have noticed that it happens. You'll see it on re starts, strike the arc and not get the arc length right quick enough and have pinholes. Going up with a stringer start off and build up a puddle, whip up a little and come back into the puddle just slightly higher and step it up as you progress upwards. A little trick I always tell beginners that worked for me. I'd take the flat scrap plate and put it up in the 3g/vertical position. Then I'd just go to welding stringers straight up. When I filled up the plate I'd go to the other side and continue. Once I got good control over that I started running weaves or caps. As your doing this experiment with your amp settings, turn it up high, down low and see what it does, helps you learn the characteristics of the rod, to hot, to cold and so on. Guys at the school would comment about how steady my hand was while running this position, just had TONS of practice. What do they call it, something about your muscles, muscle memory or something like that. Other than that keep on practicing. I think I heard one fella say the best advise he got was a welder said fill up a dumptruck with burnt rod and that's a good start.aka Cumminsguy71 at other forums....would not work here??
Reply:davidr has a video of vert up and it is a great example for what to look for while running up.  secondly, from the pictures it looks like you aren't holding to the sides long enough.  try counting 1,2,3, and then move the other side and count 1,2,3 and repeat.  for the first pass you can run a triangle weave where you hit the root, side, side, root, side, side, etc.  the triangle is what davidr did in his video.  i know many will disagree, but turn your heat down to about 100-115 which is at the lower range for a 7018.  from the big goblets you have it look like your either too hot or long arcing.  it could be what another posted  that your coupons are too hot and need to be quenched.  what ever it is, running on the cooler side will help with control and when you have your rhythm you can turn up the heat to what works for you.
Reply:ahhhhh! my bad haha he said vertical up down right sucks. sorry about that!
Reply:Here are some suggestions I have. SOme may have already been covered but they come out of my head better if I go through all of them.1) Cleaning the base metal helps but mill scale usually would not be the cause of the bead contour conditions you show above .  Very heave scale, paint, rust, can make puddle control harder.2) If you are welding with 120 amps on 3/16" or 1/4" material you may need to turn it down a notch which will make stricking an arc a greater challenge. (Thicker/Larger  material may help also as it has the ability to absorb more heat)3) Try starting off with the piece 50 or 60 degrees from horizontal. Just to minimize the sagging until you gain coordination and confidence.4) If you are sticking two pieces together, do a tee instead of a corner. TheTee joint will transfer heat away quicker until the entire piece gets hot. Outside corners are harder than inside corner when welding vertical up. If you are welding the inside corner of a piece of angle, note that there is already a "Fillet" there . Running a straight bead on the inside corner of an angle requires a different techniqe than a sharp inside corner joining two pieces together.5) If the pieces you are practicing on are short/small. Get a bucket of water and cool them before welding on them again. 6) Many techniques have been mention and all can achieve an acceptable bead. I usually teach contin. forward motion with side to side with a slight pause BUT the key is not the technique but the result. The trailing edge of the puddle lets you know in real time how your bead is going to look. If its long and pointed, the middle of the bead is staying hot too long. Spend more time on the sides and fast across the middle. This motion can be as little as 1/32" each side of center and still give noticible results. It is not impossible to run a straight stringer vertical with a 1/8" electrode. Amperage, base metal, travel speed, and arc length just become more critical. If its offset to on side freezing and then following you up at an angle, try weaving more times in an inch. Though this type of bead "Appears OK" with its widely spaced ripples and noticable scallop along the edge, the fusion underneath will be inconsistent and penetration to the root of a fillet welded joint will be lacking many times.If the slag appears to be freezing on one side before you get back across to it, try increasing the frequency of your side to side motions. Watch the puddle and dont get too hung up on any fancy techniques for manipulation. Any techiques that involve the slag freezing before you come back to it may be questionable on heavy weldments or those that require RT/UT. Keep  the arc as short as possible. Almost let the flux brush across the base metal on the leading edge.Point the electrode up 5 to 15 degrees. If the elctrode "fingernails" force it a bit closer to maintain a short arc length.When holding the electrode to point 5 to 15 degrees up, if you are using any muscles (Wrist, forearm, fingers) consider positioning the electrode in the stinger at the correct angle that allows the most natural position for you. Make sure you are positioned in a manner that isolates your breathing and other involuntary muscles from interfering with what your hands are doing. Maybe start out with short beads and resting your wrist or forearm on something. Some suggest to "NOT" rest since you will "Have to do it in the field". Very seldom will you NOT have something to rest upon. And if you don't, vice grips or c-clams can be helpful. Not propping on someting while training for welding is like sparring full contact your first day of boxing training. Your gonna get beat up EVERY day until you get the time to concentrate on the basics.Like evrything, its easy to get a great deal of opinions if you ask a great many people. You will have to pick out what works. I can only offer my views. if you ever have any questions while you are working on it my twitter name is Weldingteacher or you can PM me for my cell number and you can text. (Calling is OK too but I have unlimited text and not minutes) UNderstand there is only so much that can be done not being there but I do like running my yapper (or fingertips) about welding .Have a nice dayhttp://www.weldingdata.com/
Reply:to hot.... practice  practice  practice       then practice some.Welding isn't learned over night
Reply:loooking at your metal it appears to have paint on it . there is one problem.i'd turn my heat to about 125 but your machine could be hot enuf.   if your runninng a stringer move fast enuf to see the weld puddle fill in , but not to slow that it drops. if your going to weave  hold on the sides and travel fast through the middle .like 1,2 count on the left and a 1,2 count on right  you will see puddle fill in middle .if your just begining   then try to set your plates at a 45 degree and weld for a while and each time you practice move the plate until your angle is straight up and down . this will help you to learn how to control your puddle being it is easier   at 45 degree and with time as you increase the angle maybe 5 degrees each time you will make little adjustment . your welds will improve
Reply:As it was said before learn to walk before trying to run. Get beads and butts down pat before trying fillets. If you haven't done so already learn your vertical up with a fast freeze rod like 6011 then move on to 7018. Sure it's been done the other way but it increases your flustration.Tough as nails and damn near as smart
Reply:Here are some pics of my flat/horizontal welds, not perfect but x10000000000 better than my vert up welds.I think I might just turn the entire damn frame on its side and just weld flat lmao.All 7018AC 1/8" Rods using 120Amps of AC current, they are Lincoln Electric Brand if that makes any difference lol
Reply:It looks like you need to turn down the amperage.  It has too much spatter.Esab Migmaster 250Lincoln SA 200Lincoln Ranger 8Smith Oxy Fuel setupEverlast PowerPlasma 80Everlast Power iMIG 160Everlast Power iMIG 205 Everlast Power iMIG 140EEverlast PowerARC 300Everlast PowerARC 140STEverlast PowerTIG 255EXT
Reply:The problem is my tombstone only has "tapped" current settings, the next lowest from 120 would be 90 and the 1/8" rod doesnt like to run at that setting, it wont hold a good arc and just beads up on the surface of the steel with little penetration, so its 120 or nothing lol.Ok now let me ask you a quick question, when your runnin the 7018 90* straight up, are you supposed to do a whip motion with it cause there is no way in hell you could just drag it straight up, it will just drip so whats the deal here???
Reply:I answered in the other post but I'll re post it here since this is the better place.You do not whip 7018 like you do 6010/11. You can trap slag that way. As posted in this thread you can run 7018 straight vert, but it is more dificult. I usually use the slight weave and build a "shelf" for a lack of a better term that your weld rests on.Part of your trouble is probably the fact you only have tapped plugs rather than actual adjustable settings. I forget did you post a pict of your machine? A 30 amp jump seams large compared to my old craftsman welder that was that way, but it's been at least 3 years since I dug it out nad moved it to it's new hiding spot in the garage.
Reply:Ok I dug thru the old photos and found one of my craftsman as well as one posted here by someone else.If you look there is an A, B, And C setting on my machine and high med and low on the other. The amp settings are about 10 amps apart if you look at the combinations posible on mine and 5 amp increments on the other.On my machine if you use the A plug and the 1st on the 2nd row you get 115amps.If you want it higher, plug B and the 2nd plug on the lower row, you get 125 amps.Need it lower, Plug B and the 1st puld on the 2nd row gets you 105 amps.The other machine is similar.Last edited by DSW; 07-26-2009 at 11:14 PM.
Reply:Some very good tips have been given, although I don't think anyone mentioned arc length.  With 7018, excessive arc length can cause spatter, porosity, and poor control of the puddle.  The arc should be as tight as possible, which means the coating is practically riding on workpiece/puddle.  Since the rod burns back up inside the coating, it pretty much establishes a good arc length when riding the coating at the weld surface.I have not run 7018 is quite some time, but this is what I recall, so others here can tell me I'm full of bull.
Reply:Pulser is correct, keep the arc tight as you progress.I'm a Lover, Fighter, Wild horse Rider, and a pretty good welding man......
Reply:Originally Posted by pulser.  Since the rod burns back up inside the coating, it pretty much establishes a good arc length when riding the coating at the weld surface.I have not run 7018 is quite some time, but this is what I recall, so others here can tell me I'm full of bull.
Reply:Spatter is hard to avoid with AC.   My buzzbox produces a lot of spatter on AC.   Switch to DC and the spatter goes away.Arc length can also be challenging on an AC buzzbox with ordinary 7018.   If you hold the rod too close, you may lose the arc and "stick" the rod.   The tendency is to let the gap err on the large side. The Lincoln 7018ac rods are much easier to keep the arc lit.MyRedTombstone, your flat beads look decent.   Might slow down the drag speed a bit, give it time to create a nice fat puddle.I find 3/32" rod is easier to control on vertical -- if your machine allows you to dial in the heat correctly.   90 amps may be too hot for 3/32" vertical.   With your tapped current settings, frankly, you are going to have a heckuva time doing vertical with 7018.    I've used the red tombstones occasionally, both the tapped kind and the dial kind, and neither was a pleasure to use with ordinary 7018.   There were lots of stuck rods and lots of cussing.    So don't be too hard on yourself.Otherwise, you've been given lots of good advice.    I wish you luck.   Hang in there.
Reply:my 2 cents:Start with a inside t joint or plate with a v bevel on it. Start the arc. Go on the left plate with the rod pointing up (arc higher than the stinger). Burn on the left plate for a second whip over to the right side quickly. Do not worry about trying to fill the middle of the bead between the two plates so much. Gravity and nature will take care of that. Just go to the left plate burn for a second carry your arc to the right side burn for a second and back to the left side higher than before overlapping the weld. when its all said and done you will eaither have a nice set of stairs or a good bead. ALSO! i recommend with a cracker box welder use a 3/32 rod and if you are welding uphill you normally have the ability to run the machine colder than horizontal. I would say even with that 1/8 run that thing between 105-115 (i would have to run the machine to tell you. in my opinion your problem lies in the angle of the rod and your heat. play with it its not fun (until you get it)
Reply:ive spent a bit of time pracvticing the good old v up. i know you aint supposed to whip 7018. whipping 6010 takes the arc away and lets the deposit cool so you can go back to it and build up more..and again..and again.. so when you are weaving the 7018 if you go a little wider, and a little wider , and a litle wider, you are effectively moving thearc away from the deposit, paralleling the 6010 whip action...if the weave is kept small witrh very little side to side their is less similarity...just my observation..
Reply:I looked at the pictures, and it looks like you need a shorter arc.  The spatter is the give away.  Keep the arc as close as you can.  LESS than the size of the rod.  Its tough with a buzzbox because the arc keeps going out.Try with a shorter arc and post another picture.David Real world weldin.  When I grow up I want to be a tig weldor.
Reply:Tombstone, I'm ok talkin' with you, if you're ok talkin' with me.  We're sorta goin' down the same path right now.YOU ARE DEFINITELY NOT TALKING TO AN EXPERTI tried the pause, and fill.  Lord knows I tried.  The 123 thing.  It never worked for me.I took one look at a rapid close weave.  Side to side rapidly, with upward travel.  And the die was set.  I was hookedFrom what I can see under the hood, you're working with a shelf.  The shelf keeps the metal from running downhill.  You're melting rod above the shelf and letting it settle.Only been at this for a couple of weeks, but I hope it makes sense to you when you look at the bead.  It's one of many  And in the interest of honesty, I chose one of the not so good ones.My take on the whole thing is.........the longer you pause at the sides, the greater the oppurtunity the puddle has to cool down, and trap slag on the next weave across.It seems to be a rythym thing. Once you've established a good rythym, you can watch the puddle and see how it's building.  You have the luxury of watching the puddle instead of watching the toes(too closely)The action seems to be below the rod tip.  It's where the real stuff is going on.  It's more like where you've been, instead of where you're going.  If that makes sense  Look down, not up.  A guy put it to me(thanks)....think of it as dragging the puddle.I'm slowly coming out of the Stone Age.  A good many years of bad habits, and wasted effort.  A hack at heart, but with a desire to get better at what I do.I truly think the action is across the width of the shelf, instead of at the corners.  You can see the dig at the corners when you come to the end of the weave, it's pretty substantial.  I don't see any sense in prolonging it, and taking heat out of the middle of the puddle for longer than necessary.I might be totally wrong, but it's the direction I'm going nowTapped vs. Non Tapped machines.  I run a Lincoln crackerbox (the machine responsible for the attached pic), and a Ranger with full incremental adjustment.  I'm discovering, much to my pleasant surprise, it isn't necessarily the machine.  It's the hand and eye.I gotta loooooong way to go, but I thought I'd share my impressions with you at this point along the road.Do a CSI thing on your practice runs  It really helps.  The attached pic shows hesitation at the beginning of the run, and finally an established rythym as it progresses.  Kinda like hunt and peck.  And you knew it when you were doing it.  You felt it, and saw it.Yeah, it's the pits Attached Images"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:i always tell ppl when you go to one side you will see undercut appear, then a second later it will disappear because the electrode is filling it. its at this time you move and move quickly or the face of your weld will take on a convex contour. a little convexity is not bad, but its best to be a bit on the flush side.
Reply:hido you have any trouble with the e7018 rod normaly? Iam trying to use a E7018-1h4r rod on some s275 steel and its hard to start a when it does its all over in a second. just will not maintain a arc
Reply:Like the others have said, a very short arc length is the key to running 7018 with quality results. This is especially important when first striking your arc, this is where most porosity problems from too long of an arc develop with 7018.7018 is an all position rod that will run very nice in all positions with practice and good technique. 7018 should never be ran virticle down, it should always be ran virticle up.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Everyone's already given all the advice I would have... 3/32 is a breeze, as well as 1/8th... but try and do a real nice sparkling clean vert up with 5/32 is a little tougher  Can be done.. That's what I've been practicing. Just remember to do a z movement barely stepping up.. like maybe half a rod width and do a count in your head from side to side. Move it a bit faster across the center to keep the hump out of the bead. Watch your puddle. When you puddle flows to the side you're sitting on it's time to barely step up and move your arc across to the other side. A tight arc is super important here.
Reply:A breeze he says???????????HERE'S YER BREEZE!!!!!!!"Any day above ground is a good day"http://www.farmersamm.com/
Reply:Originally Posted by WelderBCEveryone's already given all the advice I would have... 3/32 is a breeze, as well as 1/8th... but try and do a real nice sparkling clean vert up with 5/32 is a little tougher  Can be done.. That's what I've been practicing. Just remember to do a z movement barely stepping up.. like maybe half a rod width and do a count in your head from side to side. Move it a bit faster across the center to keep the hump out of the bead. Watch your puddle. When you puddle flows to the side you're sitting on it's time to barely step up and move your arc across to the other side. A tight arc is super important here.