Will an Arc welder do what I need?

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Hi All.  I'm new to welding and am so far self taught.  I've got a Hobart Mig and have done a few small projects and a lot of sheet metal repair and replacing on my car build (a '27 T).  I'm no expert, not even close, but am learning and feeling pretty good about my stuff so far.I need a frame for my car and the plan is to build my own.  I was going to tack it together with the MIG and get it professionally finished.  However, I've come across a good deal on a Lincoln 225 Arc welder.  I know it'll be a steep learning curve, but what are the chances I can build my own frame safely with this machine?I don't have a 220 outlet in the garage but I can run an extension from a nearby dryer outlet.  A 220 Mig machine is out of the budget or I'd go that route.  I know the stick welders don't make the prettiest welds, but this is a build for fun not show.  Actually my biggest reason for the build is to learn, hence my desire to do the frame all my own.What say you?  Can I reasonably expect to have good results after lots of practice?  Can I expect the frame to be safe?Thanks!Steve
Reply:Originally Posted by anotherstevegI don't have a 220 outlet in the garage but I can run an extension from a nearby dryer outlet.
Reply:Originally Posted by anotherstevegWhat say you?  Can I reasonably expect to have good results after lots of practice?  Can I expect the frame to be safe?
Reply:Well I run my miller 225 amp off a dryer outlet. routinely at 130 amp and have never popped a breaker. Years ago I put 1/4 panels on my hotrod  with a ac buzz box (and they are still there). I used tiny rods and very low current ( around 35 or 40 amps). Its all I had then. hitches too and trailers. Point is yes but depending on your talent / skill you may not want to do something as important as a frame. You should spend some time useing someones that can instruct you and you give tips to determine what to do. don't get me wrong I am wholely for learning but be SHURE you are good enough and have the talent to do a frame (it's important).Miller thunderbolt 250Decastar 135ERecovering tool-o-holic ESAB OAI have been interested or involved in Electrical, Fire Alarm, Auto, Marine, Welding, Electronics ETC to name a just a few. So YES you can own too many tools.
Reply:Stick with plan "A".  Tack it and let a pro finish.My name's not Jim....
Reply:Your Lincoln Buzz Box can handle a car frame with ease.  It's not the buzz box that is the question, it's the "driver" operating that buzz box attempting to make perfectly sound welds.   The weakest link in your endeavor, is the human aspect of those plans.Lincoln Power Mig 216Lincoln AC/DC-225/125Miller  625 X-Treme PlasmaMiller 211 Forney 95FI-A 301HF 91110Victor Journeyman O/PMilwaukee DaytonMakita  Baileigh NRA Life Member
Reply:Thanks everyone.  I appreciate the feedback.  As far as the outlet:  I've already priced the two and am pretty close.  The problem is this is a rental house.  I've done the 220 in a garage before, and I may go ahead and do that and then remove it when we move out. It's something I haven't worked out yet.I'd love to take a class, but it's pretty hard to fit in right now.  My wife is back in school and works, and we have young kids (sports, homework, etc).  I'm lucky to have a job that gives me lots of free time, but most of that is not MY free time.  I have no problem spending hours in the garage working on stuff, but it's not at the typical Community College class times.  That pretty much leaves me to figuring it out on my own.As far as the welder, it's basically free.  I'm trading him for some stuff that I don't need away.  So I guess a better way to look at this: If you were getting a free Lincoln 225, would the cost of putting in an outlet/getting an extension cord be worth it?  I'd love to do the frame all myself, but if I can't do it then so be it.  I'm thinking it's worth it for the learning experience alone.  I have no problem asking questions and receiving criticism as long as y'all don't mind giving it!  As far as code quality welds, I've had some stuff done in the past (boat trailers, hitches, etc) at some shops in the area long before I started welding.  Looking back at the results now I question the results?  It makes me wonder why I would take the frame into these same shops and pay for results that I know I can more than duplicate.  Taking it into a "professional" could be a whole other thread.Thanks,Steve
Reply:Taking it to a pro has two major advantages.  First, they are supposed to know what they are doing and be capable.  Second,  If the weld does fail (especially something going down the road) it's their ***, not yours.Maybe you just need to find a better shop.Mentioning "learning experience" and "car frame" or "trailer" anywhere close to each other is a bad idea here.Who's got the popcorn?My name's not Jim....
Reply:I've seen work from any number of "pro's" that are worse than some of what the students in the tech school can turn out after their 1st night of ever welding. That's why I say "code quality"..Critical welds are frequently  welded to some sort of code. Code would tell you what is or is not acceptable for the job at hand. Structural steel, pipe, pressure work, aerospace etc, all usually have some sort of code or specs welders have to meet in order to qualify to do the work. That doesn't mean they can do it right every time, just that they have managed to prove themselves to at least some standard. The standard my be very loose or it may be very stringent. This usually proves at least a minimal level of competence to a fixed standard.I say "all position" because some guys never have a need to run anything but say flat welds. They may be very competent in these, but they can't weld in other positions, say overhead or vertical. I frequently see guys who can do very nice welds in the flat, and decent welds horizontal, but as soon as you move to vertical, it looks like they never welded a day in their life before. Many larger projects like trailers and vehicles often require you do welds in something other than the flat position.Just because you can weld great in all positions in mig, doesn't mean you can do so in tig or stick either. However it at least shows you usually know and understand puddle control and then it's usually simply a matter of time and practice vs starting over from scratch.  I've had guys who couldn't seem to grasp a new process, and guys who flew thru like they'd been doing this for years.Last edited by DSW; 12-11-2012 at 11:52 PM..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:By all means get the welder and set it up in your shop.  Practice, take a welding course and practice some more.  Make all kinds of handy stuff with your welder, just don't weld anything that if it fails will kill you, yourself or anyone else until you have the skill, experience and judgement to do it properly.Buy a manufactured  frame for this car or get it welded up professionally, preferably not based on the cheapest quote but on referrals by other car guys who have had similar work done.Listen to DSW and Boostinjdm, they are veterans around here and their advice is rock solid.Good luck."The reason we are here is that we are not all there"SA 200Idealarc TM 300 300MM 200MM 25130a SpoolgunPrecision Tig 375Invertec V350 ProSC-32 CS 12 Wire FeederOxweld/Purox O/AArcAirHypertherm Powermax 85LN25
Reply:Originally Posted by noriteListen to DSW and Boostinjdm, they are veterans around here and their advice is usually rock solid.Good luck.
Reply:If you're in a rental place, then I revise my suggestion about getting a 220 outlet put in. It may not be worth the trouble.
Reply:Originally Posted by anotherstevegAs far as code quality welds, I've had some stuff done in the past (boat trailers, hitches, etc) at some shops in the area long before I started welding.  Looking back at the results now I question the results?  It makes me wonder why I would take the frame into these same shops and pay for results that I know I can more than duplicate.
Reply:[QUOTE=anothersteveg;1934011  I know the stick welders don't make the prettiest welds, but this is a build for fun not show. Steve[/QUOTE]In the hands of a good experienced smaw welder, they are beautiful. Stick is still hands down my favorite welding process.JasonLincoln Idealarc 250 stick/tigThermal Dynamics Cutmaster 52Miller Bobcat 250Torchmate CNC tableThermal Arc Hefty 2Ironworkers Local 720
Reply:Steve Gfinish your user info, where you are.  There may be a forum member close to you that wouldn't mind helping out.Like was mentioned the lincoln buzz box is more than capable. In fact, I'd bet money that machine has welded more hot rod frames than any other, period.I hear what you're saying regarding "pro".  That's a tough call, when not all "pro's" are really capable of what you're looking for.  The guy welding gidjets together with mig or even tig day in and day out is definitely a "pro" but may not be qualified.Lincoln SA 200Esab Caddy 160Thermal Arc 201TSMiller Dialarc HFI don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around the courtroom....
Reply:I'd get the welder and set it up for sure.  I think I'd look for some simpler projects than a car frame using material of similar composition and thickness to what you would use for the frame.  Maybe a yard trailer or a go kart frame for starters.
Reply:Hi Steve,I'm self-taught with arc welding, and have been doing a lot of research on Google, forums like these, Youtube, books, etc. I've built a plant trailer for my excavator & bobcat, digging bucket, ripper hook, rigid thumb (a grab), and many other goodies. Non of my welds have failed (so far) and I've put some of my welded items under punishing pressure. For strength you need to use DRY low hydrogen rods (7016 / 7018). If they are OK straight out of the packet (some welders reckon even fresh out of a plastic wrapped cardboard box is not good enough and should be reconditioned to ensure they are completely dry) then you either need a holding oven where they stay indefinitely at about 120 celcius, or what I have done is make an airtight tube which is purged with argon. I have a little rubber bung in the end and a schrader valve on the other. Every time I retrieve a rod I turn on the argon to just give a little trickle purge, ensuring no air enters the tube, will use less argon than when mig welding.Learning by yourself, in my opinion, is NOT the best way to learn. Countless hours of looking for information instead of an instructor you can just ask (hopefully he isn't one of the not so good ones a few people have reported), lots of money spent on different sizes and types of welding rods (I've now got several packets each of 6011, 6012, 6013, 7016). Some guy who did a course said he doesn't know how the school makes any money after supplying all the welding rods that the students use. Having an instructor simply telling you what you are doing wrong while you are doing it should catapult you forward. For me it's been scratch my head when I don't know something, start Googling, Youtubing, and asking the great guys on these forums. You can start getting somewhere but it's much much slower and you only hope you've got it right. Committing to a schedule has been my hurdle to a welding course, but I'd like to do it some day. There's always going to be out of position welds and they're a different world to welding in the flat position. Every one has got a technique and having an experienced instructor show you each one and watch you is the way to go. Porosity with low hydrogen rods can be an issue at the starts of welds and there's more techniques to learn to counteract this.Keith.Last edited by mancavedweller; 12-12-2012 at 04:13 PM.
Reply:Thanks everyone.  I appreciate the advice.  I went ahead and got the welder today and will figure out the wiring/extension cord next week sometime.I guess I wasn't very clear when I started this thread as several people seem rather put out.  I am not planning on learning arc welding while building the frame.  I've got a number of things planned and will practice a great deal before I even consider starting on it, and only then if I'm confident in my skills.I'm in Kansas City if anyone is around and wouldn't mind me looking over your shoulder.Thanks,Steve
Reply:Originally Posted by noriteBy all means get the welder and set it up in your shop.  Practice, take a welding course and practice some more.  Make all kinds of handy stuff with your welder, just don't weld anything that if it fails will kill you, yourself or anyone else until you have the skill, experience and judgement to do it properly.Buy a manufactured  frame for this car or get it welded up professionally, preferably not based on the cheapest quote but on referrals by other car guys who have had similar work done.Listen to DSW and Boostinjdm, they are veterans around here and their advice is rock solid.Good luck.
Reply:Originally Posted by BoostinjdmMentioning "learning experience" and "car frame" or "trailer" anywhere close to each other is a bad idea here.
Reply:My neighbor back home built one from scratch when he was in his early fifties. He was and accomplished home/hobbiest welder with a Lincoln 225AC. A few of the suspension/control parts he paid to have welded but the rest he did himself. Bought one piece here and there at a time and put it together. Him and his Wife hobbied around in that "T-Bucket" for about 12 years, when they moved he sold it at a tidy profit!
Reply:advice from a novice:get the welder hooked up, get some scrap about the same thickness as your frame, then run a few flat beads, take a few pics and post them up here for critique.Then run a few horizontal beads, take pics and post em up ...then do a few uphill beads, post em up if critiques are offered, listen to them as they will be offered in the best possible of nature.by the time you have done that, you may not need the advice from DSW and others as to whether you are capable or not, it may become obvious to you on your own.my guess, you are either going to be a rockstar at stick welding, or you are going to follow the same arduous path the rest of us has..... only one way to know.
Reply:Originally Posted by Mebordermy guess, you are either going to be a rockstar at stick welding, or you are going to follow the same arduous path the rest of us has..... only one way to know.
Reply:I could do it with that welder but You need to take a welding course.  A frame is serious and even a vehicle as simple as a T bucket is easy to get the geometry off so that even if the welds are good the vehicle may not be drivable.
Reply:Originally Posted by dubl_tI hear what you're saying regarding "pro".  That's a tough call, when not all "pro's" are really capable of what you're looking for.  The guy welding gidjets together with mig or even tig day in and day out is definitely a "pro" but may not be qualified.Originally Posted by SuperArc"Professional"  simply means, one who is "paid" to do a skill.  Amateur means one who is NOT compensated for a skill and the term doesn't always necessarily mean one who produces "sub-par" work.