MIG gas question

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This is probably a dumb question but I just started welding 2 months ago and can't afford to take classes. My mine question is this, I have a limited amount of storage space right now and I've read a lot of things about gases. I currently have a propane and oxy tank for my cutting/heating. I have an Argon tank for aluminum MIG but have been using flux core for steel because most of my steel work is outside and on dirty metal (trailer and tractor parts). I have room for one more tank in my workshop and that's it. I want to use straight wire for steel in the shop but I will also be doing stainless. I know the preferred steel mix is 75/25 for steel when you are doing thin gauge but is there any way to use this for SS as well? In other words, is there one mixture I can use for both steel and SS that will perform well? I can't afford two tanks let alone have the space for two.Any advice?If it matters, I'm using a Millermatic 211. That's the best I could afford and I needed a 120v option since my dad doesn't have 240v at his shop like I do.Last edited by mercdv; 05-27-2010 at 11:28 PM.
Reply:If you had a bigger machine (250 amps or more) and 220v power and were mostly welding thick metal, you could use 98/2 argon/oxygen mix for both steel and stainless, in spray transfer mode.   However, spray is only useful in the flat and horizontal positions, without pulse. For short circuit mig on thin metals with a small machine, you'll want at least 90/10 argon/CO2 for steel.  I don't know if that would work for stainless though.An 80 to 150 cu ft tank only takes up an 8" diameter circle of floor space.  If your shop is so rediculously small that you can't fit another 8" diameter bottle of gas in it, I don't see how you can possibly get any kind of welding project done in there at all.  Maybe you should re-think your direction and take up another hobby that doesn't use up any garage space.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33If you had a bigger machine (250 amps or more) and 220v power and were mostly welding thick metal, you could use 98/2 argon/oxygen mix for both steel and stainless, in spray transfer mode.   However, spray is only useful in the flat and horizontal positions, without pulse.
Reply:One other option is to just swap out an existing bottle for another gas. It's not the most cost effective option sometimes, but can work ok. Smaller bottles work well for this, especially for gasses that you really don't need huge quantities of. For example, you might be best off getting a smaller ( say 60 cf cyl) of 100% argon for alum and swap it for stainless mix if needed (assuming you don't do much alum or SS), and use the bigger existing bottle for 75/25 for solid wire steel. I used to have a small 60 that was my 1st mig bottle that I kept as a backup for my larger bottle, that I'd swap out for 100% argon for alum mig if I needed it. I've even swapped an almost empty O2 cyl for mig gas so I'd have a spare bottle for a long weekend, knowing I'd just swap the 1st empty mig bottle back to O2 the next time I made a gas run. While gas is cheaper per cf in larger cylinders, sometimes it makes sense to use a smaller one so you can swap gasses if needed and not loose too much..No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth! Ronald Reagan
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33For short circuit mig on thin metals with a small machine, you'll want at least 90/10 argon/CO2 for steel.  I don't know if that would work for stainless though.
Reply:Originally Posted by sn0border88I dont know where your getting you information, but I have never seen 90/10 recommended for any of the small MIG machines ive ever used.  The charts always plainly recommend C25 or CO2. While an experienced user in a high end shop may benefit from 90/10 on thin material, a novice user would only be wasting money on a more expensive mix.To the original question, yes you can used C25 on SS but you will lose some corrosion resistance at the weld joint.  Its not going to rust into pieces, but it will get some pitting over time.  If thats something that is acceptable for the project then no harm using it.
Reply:One more thought.  If interior garage space is really that much at a premium, you can keep your bottles outside.  It doesn't hurt them.  The bottles on my truck stay outside all the time with no ill effects.  I swap them out when I have them filled, so it's not like the same 4 bottles are standing there rusting away outside for years.  Funny how space in my truck's 8 foot utility bed is extremely limited with the Bobcat and 3 jobsite tool boxes mounted in the center of the bed and large side tool boxes down each side, yet I still find room to carry 4 gas bottles and a large fire extinguisher on the truck.  Last edited by DesertRider33; 05-29-2010 at 07:36 AM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Ah, that makes a little more sense now.I will say I am a big proponent of 90/10, we have a miller axxcess 450 in the shop and since we switch between MIG, RMD and different pulsed programs often I recommended we switch to 90/10 instead of having C25 and C5.  All I can say is if you have a big machine, C10 runs like a dream.  A turn too pulsed spray and its like welding nirvana.Have we all gone mad?
Reply:Thanks for the info sn0border88. Originally Posted by DesertRider33Personally, I think the real issue is he just doesn't want to buy the extra gas bottle and is using lack of space as part of the reason to try to find a way to use one bottle for everything.  To do it properly, that's not going to happen.  With his mig, he needs the tri-mix gas for stainless, the pure argon for aluminum and the argon/co2 mix gas, or pure co2, for carbon steel.  If he doesn't want to buy the tri-mix gas, he can use a self-shield stainless fluxcore wire instead and clean the spatter after.  If he wants to get into doing welding for hire, he may as well start getting used to using the right equipment/process/consumables/etc for the job, rather than cutting corners.  That's my take on it.  Sundown told him the same thing over on the Miller board, in his usual matter-of-fact way of saying things.
Reply:Originally Posted by mercdvThanks for the info sn0border88.Boy my first post and I can already tell who the major tool of the site is....you don't know a thing about me or my setup so you can keep you judgmental crap to yourself. .
Reply:Thanks DSW for the shed advice I'll ask them but they are pretty darn strict. I think their answer will be the usual "that's why we have a 2 acre storage area." Doesn't hurt to ask because I sure could get a bunch of cylinders in one of those.I understand people expect magic but I've done a ton of research and I know about all the gases but I kept hearing rumors that 75/25 could be used for everything but aluminum and it would have decent results but not advisable for a pro. I just kind of wanted to feel out that rumor so I came to welding forums to ask since I know the welder/gas manufacturers won't say it. I've read about everything I can on ESAB's education center so I'm pretty informed and expected to have a bunch of cylinders but was hoping I could "just get by" for now because of my limited space. At some point I do have to let my wife start parking back in the garage. Plus, another reason I asked is (just like my industry) I know there are constant advancements in the welding industry so they could have something out on the market in some location that only the pros know about.I'm a beginner but I did spend over 6 months researching welding and welders. I wanted to get a TIG unit but I broke several bones in my wrist and thumb so I couldn't justify the extra cost. There's a chance I can't even use it worth a darn. My thumb still doesn't work well. I settled for the Millermatic 211 because it will work with my current generator and I can use it on 120v for small repairs at my dad's place. I wanted something bigger but I can do that later if I stick with this. I'm big on buying top of the line entry level equipment when I start something. I find it's easier to resale when things don't work out.I still have a ton to learn and the best way is to learn from the pros. That's why I came here. Just didn't appreciate someone saying that I am using space as an excuse. I'm not. Hell, if I was cheap I would have bought a much cheaper welder than the Millermatic 211 just to get the extra few amps and the ability to run on 120v. I could have easily gone to Lowes and picked up a Lincoln Tombstone for dirt cheap and not even had to worry about gas.
Reply:You'd be very incorrect about Desert. He's knows his $hit. I think you took him the wrong way, though I can't speak for him. So maybe we need to cool off just a bit.  There are a lot of posts on forums by people asking for suggestions but, but they only give half the info needed or give a cleaned up version of the story to get the response they "want". ( Why , I don't know)I'm wondering about your HOA. They won't let you have a tank outside but you can weld trailer/tractor parts outside? Or are you doing that at your Dad's place? What about having the other tank at yer Dad's place? Maybe you can paint it up and call it garden art. Though your HOA probably tells you what is and isn't allowed to be in your garden. You sound like you've got a lot on your plate. My hope is that, if like you said, you've only been welding for a couple months, that the trailers and tractors you're working on are only used on your own property so if something does break it isn't going to endanger the public. Not saying you can't weld, but 2 months of practice at 15 mins here and there isn't much. I don't know how anyone lives with HOA's. They seem completely counter to the popular American mind set. They just seem nuts! Hope you can hold on to your job. Good heads up planning to expand your skill set. A lot of people out there with expensive degrees in their hands and no where to go. Just be sure you're not welding over your skill/experience level. Best of luck Bert200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:Originally Posted by bert the welderYou'd be very incorrect about Desert. He's knows his $hit. I think you took him the wrong way, though I can't speak for him. So maybe we need to cool off just a bit.  There are a lot of posts on forums by people asking for suggestions but, but they only give half the info needed or give a cleaned up version of the story to get the response they "want". ( Why , I don't know)
Reply:Didn't mean to 'bust your balls' there, so I apologize if that's how it came across.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:Originally Posted by DesertRider33Didn't mean to 'bust your balls' there, so I apologize if that's how it came across.
Reply:No problem.I know Hobart Brothers makes both dual shield and self shield stainless fluxcore wire under the McKay brand name (In-Flux 308, 309 and 316 shelf shield and Chromaweld gas shield in same alloys).  I have not used either.  I have used their McKay stainless stick rods and they work great, smooth, low spatter.   I use alot of Hobart self shield carbon steel fluxcore and their wires are top notch, so I would trust that their stainless fluxcore wire is also good.www.hobartbrothers.comLast edited by DesertRider33; 05-31-2010 at 12:27 AM.MM350P/Python/Q300MM175/Q300DialarcHFHTP MIG200PowCon300SMHypertherm380ThermalArc185Purox oaF350CrewCab4x4LoadNGo utilitybedBobcat250XMT304/Optima/SpoolmaticSuitcase12RC/Q300Suitcase8RC/Q400Passport/Q300Smith op
Reply:You must have to peep out the garage door and open and close it quick so the neighborhood hawks don't catch sight of your set up!  I used to weld in a single car garage. I did it full time. No HOA, but had to keep it between 9-5 so not to annoy the neighbors 12' away! And had to keep it on the down low to keep those with sticky fingers from getting ideas. Though, once I busted a guys ankle with the back of an ax, that I took off him after he stole it out of my neighbours back yard, as he was escaping over my back fence, the problems in the neighborhood seemed to diminish. Funny how that worked. My neighbours called me their HOA: Hell on Assholes! Hope you get a solution that works for you. What are you making with welding SS the mild? Garden art?Regards,Bert200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:DS, that flux cored looks promising but the closest place is 45 minutes away from me that sells Hobart Brothers. My LWS is nice but they don't carry a large variety. They don't even carry propane tips for the Victor torch. I live in a pretty small area. They also only carry Weldcote wire but looks like they make a flux cored that runs with 75/25. I don't know anything about the different wire makers yet but I hear a lot of the guys prefer Hobart, Lincoln, ESAB, and McKay for their wire choice. Any opinion on Weldcote wire?
Reply:Originally Posted by bert the welderYou must have to peep out the garage door and open and close it quick so the neighborhood hawks don't catch sight of your set up!  ....What are you making with welding SS the mild? Garden art?Regards,Bert
Reply:Originally Posted by mercdvDS, that flux cored looks promising but the closest place is 45 minutes away from me that sells Hobart Brothers. My LWS is nice but they don't carry a large variety. They don't even carry propane tips for the Victor torch. I live in a pretty small area. They also only carry Weldcote wire but looks like they make a flux cored that runs with 75/25. I don't know anything about the different wire makers yet but I hear a lot of the guys prefer Hobart, Lincoln, ESAB, and McKay for their wire choice. Any opinion on Weldcote wire?
Reply:If they have some in stock, I'll pick it up and give it a run this weekend. The only problem I see is that I don't have any experience with good wire to know the difference. I have a spool of their E71T-GS flux cored that I'll be using to make my table this weekend. I'll let you know what I think of it once I start work on the table. Heck, I might just try to find a place I can order a few 2lb spools of the good stuff just so I can compare. I'll keep in mind what you said about the Airgas' because they are the only other shop within 30 minutes of me. I'll skip them and drive the extra 15 to a place that has lots of WS stores.My LWS can order anything I want the only problem is that they are mighty expensive if you have them order it. I got my Miller 211, spool gun, heavy duty cart, helmet, and Victor Medium torch for the a couple hundred dollars more than they wanted for just the Miller 211. They do have really good prices on some things but they are a bit steep on machines and torch accessories. I looked at 4 used machines with them and the ones that were in good shape they tried to sell for a higher price than I could buy it new. I'm still trying to figure them out since I'm new at this. Give me a few more months and I'll know what I can get out of them and what I'll need to order from other stores. They are really nice but they don't have any competition in the area and you know what that leads to...
Reply:Maybe, if you go to that WS that's 45 mins. away, take note of prices of item's you'll be buying frequently. Bring them in next time you're at your LWS and see if they compete. Is there an auto supply place near you? Sometimes they can get a lot of stuff at good prices. Bert200amp Air Liquide MIG, Hypertherm Plasma, Harris torches, Optrel helmet, Makita angle grinders, Pre-China Delta chop saw and belt sander, Miller leathers, shop made jigs etc, North- welders backpack.
Reply:mercdv you can also order wire on the internet, a lot of the internet suppliers will ship right to your door for a better price than a small public supply shop can offer. you could do all your welding with 98-2  it would be marginally more expensive and not give you as much penetration at c25 on carbon steels.  For the record 2% CO2 is the max allowable on stainless steels.the other option is to get a cylinder of 100% argon and a cylinder of 100% CO2 and mix them yourselves. although by the time you buy the regulators and such you need, you might as well just buy 2 bottles of the right gas.  Also it's perfectly feasible to store cylinders outside, or under tables.  you can also store cylinders on their side if you take all the neccessary precautions to ensure the valve will never get damaged.Welding EngineerCertified Scrap Producer